talk about flopping????????????

[Blackman]

what are you saying?

Shaq vs Duncan = Ratings


Not saying I agree but I'm sure that's what he's getting at. Doesn't hurt that Wade could become the new golden boy of the NBA on it's biggest stage.

I don't believe in these conspiracy theories, but no one can deny that getting the Heat into the finals will bring much more interest from the casual fan.

 

[CWood97]

Detroit will have the opportunity to win game 6, it will actually depend on how the teams play. Bet your first born on Miami in game 7, Pistons will have no chance.

Last year, it made sense for the league to have a "team" win the title over bickering and possibly jailed superstar(s). This year, Spurs vs Pistons is TV's worst nightmare. It can't happen.

 

[AU2001]

Wade's flop was terrible. I didn't care before, but now I am cheering for Pistons to win the East.

 

[Scott4USC]

David Stern has his sticky fingers all over this series. Thats all that needs to be said about the officiating.

I think you are right! BUt can you explain why Suns got all the calls against Spurs? Maybe that was to make series go 6 and have Spurs win in 6. IMO, Suns and Heat have been getting calls and game 5 @Phoenix vs Spurs was by far the worst officiated game of the playoffs.

Coug LJ

The Pistons are in trouble. Both Shaq and D.Wade had sub-par games and the Heat still won handily. As for the officiating, both Shaq and Wade were on the bench with two fouls in the 1ST QUARTER.

Why wasn't Wade called for his 3rd foul when he blocked Wallace? I don't think it was a charge and I think Wads foot was on line so no charging can be called. Did not get good look at it though. Wallace sure complained and the Ref hesitated with call. A lot of HORRIBLE calls went Miami's way in game 5.

Why does Wade get free throw shots when NO PISTON player touches him? Happened in game 3 with Hunter and game 2 with Prince. Neither player touched Wade with body or hands. Or the best one is when Wade drove to basket and banged against Hunter TURNED his back to Hunter and the basket out of control and refs called shooting foul on Hunter. Hunters arms were on side not even touching Wade. I would say Wade has been getting at least 2 phantom calls in every game since game 2. Game 1 Wade got no phantom calls in his benefit.

If you take away the Wade royal treatment, I think this series has been officiated ok. But that royal treatment gives Miami at least 4pts and fouls against Detroit.

IMO, I thought superstars were suppose to get royal treatment when they drive to basket and bodies are banged. FOr example if you see the white dudes on Spurs drive to basket they NEVER seem to get fouled. Quite amazing and I guess officials laugh when they complain about getting fouled. Brent Barry in these playoffs has driven to basket 15 times and NOT ONCE was fouled. :scared Udrich for Spurs has driven to basket maybe 10 times in playoffs and not once called for foul. Is it because they are not superstars and white? That is not fair.

 

[pt1gard]

scott,

You love Kobe and are blinded to that; I think he's a loser on and off the court, and I detest ballhogs like Kobe and AI and don't think as a coach you can win that way--you dont see it that way, fine ...

I think Shaq, like Barkley and anyone else who understands the game, is far better and has more impact than Kobe can or ever could have--you simply cant single cover shaq, he is like a inhuman DT who needs a man and half committed which opens the game for everyone else ... Shaq made Kobe a winner, not other way around.

we have argued about shaq and kobe for 2 years--I dont respect Kobe as a true winner, you are in love with him, what else needs to be said? (does he make electrifying plays, sure--so did edgar jones) ...

you can hypothetcially chess piece and blame role players all day and say Horry was horrible (which is exactly what you insisted many times on IMs, tho now you are slightly masking stance b/c deep down you realize you might, egads!, have to admit you were wrong--Scott, no nba player gets better after turning 32) and derek fisher you used to say sucked, too ... Other Lakers were decent enough role players but you always wanted to place blame on everyone BUT Kobe--including Shaq, who you ridiculed at every opportunity ... anyhow, your Lakers, yourself, and management fell under spell of Cancer Kobe ...

But Shaq couldnt take it anymore and left LA cuz he couldnt stand playing with a loser, spin it any way you want ... Ironic how Heat might make Finals and Kobe couldnt make playoffs .... complete coindence or just poor luck during 82 games for Lakers?

Shaq is respected and revered by his peers and NBA analysts; no one likes Kobe, and since chemistry counts in basketball more than any other sport, you might one day realzie it; but since you can't even admit you might have to backtrack one iota on anything, then Im sure you won't ever learn from your mistakes and will be doomed to chase your tail into Infinity ...

You love Kobe and made excuses all thru Deet's undressing of his lame Finals play LY (post after post whining about fouls, everyone here recalls it)--I understand, you enjoy protecting Cancer Kobe: great, you and many are loyal to a imperial non-team player loser; I cant stand him--is that clear now?

I love Shaq and see him as most imposing player in NBA for over a decade; you hate him--we agree? Great.

Scott hates Shaq

Gregg hates Kobe

Now maybe we can move on, b/c as thick as your head is, you can't grasp this concept even tho I have explained it to you fifty times on MJs and on IMs.

Finally ....

The thing about debating scott is, you dont ultimately win by changing someone else's mind, you accept their POV and leave it at that, move on and learn from other's perspective and experiences ... I've understood where you are coming from for 2 years on Kobe and Shaq, yet I have never seen anyone keep picking at a scab like you. By repeating yourself in all your arguments, it makes people stop listening b/c you don't bring anything fresh. It's tedious and that's why you magnetize bad karma.

gl, to all
gregg

 

[DIRTY Diapers]

Pt1gard,

Cmon - You may hate Kobe but please respect his abilities. It took TWO great players Shaq and Kobe to win those titles. Comparing the Laker's to the Heat this year is laughable. Laker's had injuries throughout the whole year and was in position to make the playoffs until Kobe was out for almost a month. I am by NO means a Laker lover. In fact, I could care less about that team.

Shaq is still a dominant force, but he is not what he used to be. If Shaq was the one who stayed in L.A. and Kobe was the one who went to the heat. Do you really think the Laker's would have made it past the first round with Shaq, Butler, Odom, Chucky, and Mihm Please... Kobe and Wade with Mourning playing center would be a pretty tough team. But who knows how far each team would have gone.

Bottom line it either takes two GREAT players or a solid starting five to win the championship:

Bulls: Jordan and Pippen
Bad boys: Strong solid five.
Rockets: Strong solid five with one great player.
Spurs: Duncan and Robinson
Pistons: Strong solid five.

I don't want to get in a huge debate. It is all a matter of opinion. But almost every NBA expert agree that KOBE is the best all-around basketball player in the league. I personally can't stand him as a person but you cannot argue his abilities.

Just think if Kobe would have played with Garnett this year. They would have beaten anybody.

 

[Scott4USC]

Good post DIRTY Diapers and I agree with you! Comparing this Heat squad to last years Lakers squad is bogus. I'll take Kobe/Garnet over Wade/Shaq. I know with the first duo you will get 100% effort!

But Shaq couldnt take it anymore and left LA cuz he couldnt stand playing with a loser, spin it any way you want ... Ironic how Heat might make Finals and Kobe couldnt make playoffs .... complete coindence or just poor luck during 82 games for Lakers?

WRONG! Shaq wanted to stay in LA and Lakers wanted him out. That is a FACT! Shaq is bitter the Lakers did not want him and chose Kobe. Lakers did not want to pay someone big $$$ who was not committed. Then Shaq said trade me, so Lakers did. BUT Shaq did NOT want to leave Lakers. $$$ made Shaq want to leave.

since you can't even admit you might have to backtrack one iota on anything, then Im sure you won't ever learn from your mistakes and will be doomed to chase your tail into Infinity ...

I didn't like Horry as Laker, and did not like most of the Laker role players. I also don't like Shaq. Why does this bother you? I explained why I dislike those players. Role players I liked on Lakers were Shaw and Harper.

I love Shaq and see him as most imposing player in NBA for over a decade; you hate him--we agree? Great.

Scott hates Shaq

Gregg hates Kobe

Gregg loves and praises Shaq. Lets see what Shaq was about as a Laker.

After winning his 1st championship, Shaq repeatedly showed up overweight. Buss would ask Shaq to come in shape and he wouldn't.

Shaq NEVER led the league in rebounding. Funny how so many people think he is by far best center in NBA and most dominating player. Yet he never lead the NBA once in rebounding. #2, Shaq does not help on defense and is very lazy!

Last year in pre-season, Shaq yelled on the court while playing for Buss to pay him his $$$. How immature and unprofessional is that?

After Shaq was injured with foot, he said he wanted to get surgery on company time and not his own time in summer. Is that a team player? Why wouldn't he get surgery in summer so he can be healthy for start of season? He publicly admitted this!

The list goes on an don about Shaq. He is not someone you should respect. He is a big baby and not professional. He is not a team player. He is LAZY! Only time I seen him husstle night in night out was the year he won his 1st championship.

Proof of that is Shaq showing up in shape to Miami when he was traded. Not once showing up in shape to Lakers yet he demanded Buss to pay him his $$$$. What kind of teamate/superstar is this? What example is he showing other players?

The amazing thing is how much the LA media downplayed Shaqs incidents. Only person in LA who wasn't afraid to bad mouth Shaq was Dave Smith on sports radio.

I am glad Buss didn't give into Shaq's demands and traded him. Only thing is Buss made a poor trade IMO. Seeing Shaq hurt that LA didn't want him anymore was worth it. Glad his lazy a$$ is out! 2 more years (cap room free) and Lakers will be on top again with players who want to give 100% effort on and off field. That is why I respect Kobe. He is in top shape and plays hard!

Now maybe we can move on, b/c as thick as your head is, you can't grasp this concept even tho I have explained it to you fifty times on MJs and on IMs.

You are the one who harps on this subject.

 

[SALTY DOG]

You both are right...Shaq treated the people
signing his paycheck like shit...why???...who
knows except the party's involved...but he is
the man and scott he will cost you your HUGE
WAGER...ptguard, Kobe is the biggest cancer
I've ever seen, Lakers are in for a long drought...
capped out for two years and Buss has to stick
by his guns with THE CANCER for years to try
and prove he was right when in fact he was
dead wrong...Shaq will lead the Heat to the
Championship...Spurs do NOT want to face
Shaq...man on a mission...will not be denied...

 

[SALTY DOG]

THE DIESEL...ROLLS....ROYCE.... :clap:

ROYCE IS DUNCAN....AGAIN.... :mj07:

only the 2nd player is WADE...not KOBE...

KOBE to busy being KOBE....

WADE to busy playing basketball....

WE SHALL SEE.... :mj14:

 

[pt1gard]

Lakers pregame huddle in tunnel concourse, everyone gathers around Shaq, getting pumped as one unit, enjoying the camaraderie ... Kobe is only one not in circle, doing his own thing, separate away from the nucleus... Laker teams runs out on court, cheers go up from crowd ... 20 seconds later Kobe trots out for his own individual cheers ... Gawd, Id love to coach such a prima donna

In in Wade's second season, he avg. 6.8 assists a game; Kobe never broke past 6.0 in entire career ... and no where did I say Kobe was bad, etc. ... I judge a player on what he would be capable of if he played with T-E-A-M in mind and elevated everyone else; and Kobe, like AI, is an underachiever of egregious proportions ...

Ive talked to several nba head and college coaches in my life and they agree he's not a team player, and many other intelligent ex-nba and college stars, this isnt my loan wolf theory ... People who understand the game know hes selfish, he isnt interested in making his teammates better ... He refused to feed Shaq in playoffs LY, instead tangenting for self-indulgent forays into nothing ... I recently re-watched a few of last year's Finals and it was laffable watching Kobe try to be the man ...

I didn't think I would keep this going, but i do find it amusing to expose your lack of basketball knowledge concerning team players and who truly makes his team stronger not weaker... TIVO replays dont come equipped with that, I guess ... You cant even grasp the nuances that Horry brought to LA for 7 years; thats about all a person needs to know in this issue, as you watched games from a teenager's perspective: Treys and dunks and human highlights

you like facts, insight, except when they go against your views--you didnt address any of the provable statistcal contributions Horry made to LA for all his playoff years, you came back with nebulous opinion on whether he matched up with power fwds. Boy, did that shock me.

Can't have it both ways, Scott, you always harp that you want all posters to lace bets with criteria (Scottusc: "I give unarguable backing for all my plays!" blah blah) and I laid it on an irrefutable platter and you never addressed a single fact.

And of course you respect Kobe b/c he is selfish, and one doesnt need to dig deep into CG Jung to understand he reminds you of someone you most admire.


ps and unless Im blind here I dont see where on this thread, w/o benefit of disappearing ink, where i started any anti-Kobe Laker sentiment until you drew first blood :shrug:

 

[Coug LJ]

When you are imposing as Shaq, people expect you to dominate in all aspects of the game. He is not the best defender or rebounder, but he has been the most effective scorer in the league for the last ten years. And as Gregg noted, he creates opportunities for his teammates.

Shaq has been very magnanimous towards DeWayne Wade and the rest of his teammates. Kobe has come off a selfish jerk who does NOT make his teammates better. When it comes down to it, that is the skill that supersedes all others. It wasn't until Jordan learned how to trust and embrace his teammates that the Bulls went over the top.

Magic Johnson couldn't jump, play defense or shoot particularly well, but he was a great, great player. Individual talent can carry you just so far. Kobe will have to learn this lesson the hard way. Shaq understands this and it isn't a coincidence that the Heat are on the verge of the NBA Finals.

The Lakers made their choice and the results speak for themselves. Won and loss records don't lie. In the NBA, great players are judged by how their team does. Kobe is as highly skilled as any player in the league, but he was selected 3rd team All NBA. Shaq was on the 1st team and was a very close second in the MVP race.

 

[Its Gravy]

Coug LJ
i couldnt have said it better myself. a wonderful post to shut up the fools!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Scott4USC]

Good posts Coug LJ and Pt1gard.

It is not fair to judge Kobe right now. Lakers did not trade Shaq to win now. They traded Shaq to win in "near" future vs keeping Shaq and becoming the next CELTICS/BULLS later on. Smart move by Buss. Shaq not being professional and immature towards Lakers owner helped make decision easier. Along with Shaq repeatedly playing out of shape. IMO Shaq will have injuries every year and his production will decline. No way does Buss want to shell that $$$ out to him in addition to him not having motivation to come play in shape. He is in shape in Miami but in LA he wouldn't be. These are Buss's words, not mine but I 100% agree with him.

On top of all this, Lakers management has been horrible. Look at how they drafted and the current role players on the team. GARBAGE!

It will take 2 years to clean most of it all out and develop as a team. Then you can judge KOBE. Wait until Kobe gets solid role players around him and 1 star player to play along side him. (that star player comes in 2 years)

That was the point of trading Shaq now. When I talk about 2 years, I am talking about Lakers contending for championship. Not just being solid. You will see! BTW, please don't spit out garbage free agents won't come to lakers because of Kobe. That will prove to be a myth in 2 years when lakers have huge cap room! Now I am putting my faith that Lakers don't screw up this high draft pick. I can somewhat understand not drafting well while you are winning championships and drafting end 1st round. No excuses this year!

Lakers pregame huddle in tunnel concourse, everyone gathers around Shaq, getting pumped as one unit, enjoying the camaraderie ... Kobe is only one not in circle, doing his own thing, separate away from the nucleus... Laker teams runs out on court, cheers go up from crowd ... 20 seconds later Kobe trots out for his own individual cheers ... Gawd, Id love to coach such a prima donna

:mj07:

To be honest I never knew Kobe wasn't in huddle with team and came out on floor later. I don't think I paid much attention to that. I do remember the Lakers doing that jumping circle dance. I agree thats not good teammate and don't understand why he would isolate himself like that. But the thing I do know is Kobe puts in 100% effort in offseason, regular season, and playoffs. I think his strong desire is what makes me such of his. But I agree that is a negative on Kobe.

In in Wade's second season, he avg. 6.8 assists a game; Kobe never broke past 6.0 in entire career ... and no where did I say Kobe was bad, etc. ... I judge a player on what he would be capable of if he played with T-E-A-M in mind and elevated everyone else; and Kobe, like AI, is an underachiever of egregious proportions ...

Look at WADES role players (with Shaq in shape & motivated) and Kobes role players (with Shaq out of shape and not motivated)

Kobe would drive and dish out to his role players all the time. When his role players missed WIDE OPEN shots, he would stop giving them the ball and shoot in double/triple teams. He did this against Detroit. I agree 100% Kobe should have given ball more to Shaq. I still would have rather Kobe shoot over double teams than dump it off to role players who miss wide open shots. Laker role players SUCKED! Miami role players have TALENT! Much better run organization!

I didn't think I would keep this going, but i do find it amusing to expose your lack of basketball knowledge concerning team players and who truly makes his team stronger not weaker... TIVO replays dont come equipped with that, I guess ...

You value team players more than I do. Doesn't make you more knowledgeable than me. I think Lakers managed ok with Kobe winning 3 straight NBA titles and 4 straight NBA finals appearances. Shaq never won a title without Kobe (fact) and Kobe has many more years left to play compared to Shaq. We can judge Shaq's career but not Kobe. I think Kobe will have more NBA championship rings than Shaq when its all said and done. (even if Shaq gets a ring this year)

You cant even grasp the nuances that Horry brought to LA for 7 years; thats about all a person needs to know in this issue, as you watched games from a teenager's perspective: Treys and dunks and human highlights

Are you related to Horry? Why are you so offended with me disliking Horry as a Laker. He wasn't productive enough for me to praise him. He was solid at best as a role player. On defense he sucked. His man always owned him. Power forwards KILLED the Lakers and Horry was power forward. He wasn't productive and that is what Lakers asked him to do. Horry was often a ghost for first 3 quarters offensively and would hit a big shot in 4th. Why didn't he do it all 4 quarters? His last year as Laker missing something like 30+ straight 3pt shots (with 90% of them wide open shots) put nail in coffin. Don't want that guy on my Laker team and glad he went to Spurs. Ironic thing is I have Spurs this year to win it all and I am in love with Horry and way he has produced. Just shows I am not biased against him. I call it as I see it! Wish he played this way with Lakers!

Can't have it both ways, Scott, you always harp that you want all posters to lace bets with criteria (Scottusc: "I give unarguable backing for all my plays!" blah blah) and I laid it on an irrefutable platter and you never addressed a single fact.

I didn't need too. I clearly explained why I was not an Horry fan. I gave multiple reasons. I think Horry was solid at best. Not bad player by any means but not great player either. I was glad to see him leave Lakers! I said you had good arguments supporting Horry but I explained why I dislike him.

ps and unless Im blind here I dont see where on this thread, w/o benefit of disappearing ink, where i started any anti-Kobe Laker sentiment until you drew first blood :shrug:

You bashed Kobe/praised Shaq in other threads interacting with me. I can link them if you want! Thought I attack that issue in one post vs making 2 posts in 2 threads. I def. drew "first blood" in this thread. :mj07: Always enjoy reading your posts Gregg! I like your writing style and sense of humor.

 

[pt1gard]

One thing I give you, Scott, you never take things personally, and I know I am more passionate that way ... so I have to give you props there ... :clap:

espn magazine had an article on Lakers and/or Shaq and Kobe a few years ago, you should try to find it ... talked all about Kobe not being part of team, i.e. coming out for own cheers, etc. ...

One more thing I have pointed out to you numerous times, Lakers record with and w/o Shaq (when he was injured and a Laker) as opposed to Kobe's ... its not even close ... Now, I know your argument is that Laker's didn't have backup center and could more easily replace Kobe than Shaq; BUT when Larry, Magic or MJ missed games, their teams dramatically titled to the minus %, not so with Kobe missing games ...

You can't win in hoops w/o being team oriented, and until Kipling's leopards like Kobe and AI, understand that, they will never go down by true basketball cognoscenti as highly respected practitioners as they could be...

I'd be curious to hear why you think Kobe averaged a career high 4.1 turnovers a game this year, almost 1 more per game than any other year?

Also, I found this stat interesting: Kobe is a lifetime 33% three point shooter and over the last 5 NBA seasons only the bottom five TEAMS in NBA shoot a lower three point % (than Kobe's 33%), that kind've surprised me...

More puzzling figures would be Kobe's dwindling shooting pct.

In 2003/04 he shot .438 yet his team shot .454; in 2004/05 he shot even worse, his all time low: .433, yet his team shot higher again: .437 ...

Seems logical a productive superstar should have a higher shooting pct. than his team's total? .... For the fun of it, I went back and tossed out Kobe's last 2 years and his first two years (when he was too young to be held accountable), and his 5 'tweener years came to an exceptional FG% of .462 ... I am quite certain he'll never recapture those numbers ...

Intrigued to match Kobe up with the player many try to compare him to, I went back and checked MJ, thinking his later years he turned into a lesser shooter. However, even tho he dissipated somewhat, he still led his teams' fg% every year they won the Crown.

98 MJ .465 team .451
97 MJ .486 team .473
96 MJ .495 team .478
93 MJ .495 team .482
92 MJ .519 team .508
91 MJ .539 team .510

Bird shot a lifetime .496 and ran pretty close to teams' FG % each year, outdistancing as often as not.

Jerry West regularly led his team with .20 to .50 higher fg shooting %s ... Oscar was even more incredible, leading by more, including by .69 one year.

I'm pretty sure you will find this true for any real superstar that wins. People like TMac, and AI don't fit this mold.

[Tmac
2005: .431/team .444;
2004: .417/team .429]

[AI
2005 .424/team .437
2004 .387/team .428
2003 .414/team .448
2002 .398/team .436
2001 .420/team .447]

Be interesting to see if Kobe picks his game up in the future, b/c his last 2 seasons have noticeably dipped, although the public hasn't yet realized it.

Could it be a harbinger of Ricky Williams and Eddie George at the end? (being slightly facetious) ... I posted a number of times two years ago that they had turned to jokes while many in the press still thought they were of Mt. Olympus ilk, when the truth was they were the 2 least productive RBs in entire league their last couple of years.

have a nice weekend
gregg

 

[Coug LJ]

Kobe is at the crossroads of his career. As Scott says, it is not fair to judge him now. There is no doubt that his career has taken a dip the last couple of years, however. We will see what happens.

It is apparent that Phil Jackson would like to coach the Lakers. It is also apparent that Kobe is not enamored with that idea. He openly lobbied for Larry Brown and the spats between Jackson and Kobe are public knowledge.

The general impression is that Kobe is a spoiled superstar that wanted to be the "man" on the Lakers and felt Shaq was an obstacle in this objective. Kobe also had troubles with Phil Jackson. ...Well, while the chemistry had it's problems, the team DID win three NBA Championships.

Again, the perception is that Kobe pushed Shaq and Phil out the door. I don't believe it was that simple, but that is the perception and there is more than a little truth to it.

Kobe is not a young kid, anymore. The greatest guards in NBA history - Jordan, Magic, Oscar, West, Cousy - were All NBA 1st team nine or ten times. Kobe has achieved this feat two times. He will have more opportunities, but being on a mediocre team will not help. Plus, the competition is gaining on him and may be passing him as we speak.

How many G.M.'s would take Kobe over Lebron James OR DeWayne Wade? ...How about Tracy McGrady? Steve Nash, Allen Iverson and Ray Allen were all voted above Kobe this past season on the All NBA teams.

Kobe was on the cusp of greatness, Jordan, Magic greatness. He has fallen and it will be interesting to see if he can get up. He has played a lot of games and it takes a toll on a body. He is also saddled with a mediocre team in the prime of his career. Laker management made mistakes, but Kobe had his role in the current mess he finds himself. His legacy will be determined by how he makes the current lemons into lemonade.

 

[soul train]

i usually don't like to get involved in these threads,but when i hear that kobe is at the crossroads of his career at the age of 26 i got to chime in.no disrespect but i totally disagree.
call me crazy,but if i am starting a franchise today and keep this in mind,i want to win right away as in the next 2 too 3 years i am taking this guy.just because the lakers sucked this season does not mean he is not the player he used to be.
he still averaged 27.6 ppg.
he had 10 games with 40 + points
20 games of 30 + points
yea his fg % was down to 43% he also took more 3 point shots then ever before ,plus he was the only guy on the team who can score(lmao)
somebody also said his body is getting beat up,he was 5th in the league in minutes played 40.7
anyway as far as i see it he is still a kid with plenty of stardum left in his body.
good luck and enjoy

 

[The Judge]

I'll take Kobe/Garnet over Wade/Shaq.

I can not believe that you really mean this.

 

[Coug LJ]

Good points, Soul Train:

The question is would you take Kobe over LeBron, DeWayne Wade or McGrady?

Kobe is older than all of these guys and has been in the league nine years. That's a fair amount of mileage, especially if you count playoff games.

Kobe has amazing skills, but fair or not, players are judged by their team's performance. Kobe benefitted from this during the Laker's championship run and is being penalized by their sub-standard performance this past season. You can't have it both ways. McGrady went through the same thing. He had complete garbage at Orlando.

Everyone has their own opinion, but my guess most would take LeBron, Wade and very possibly, McGrady over Kobe even under the 2 or 3 year format you suggested.

And we are not even talking about the baggage Kobe carries. Not only Colorado, but his role blowing up the Lakers.

The best thing Kobe has going for him is it is hard to believe that the Lakers will stand for a losing team. The West is tough, however. The Lakers will trouble making the playoffs next season. Kobe is the man in L.A. and he will be judged on how the TEAM does. Individual stats go just so far.

...And, by the way, didn't Lamar Odom make the Olympic Team?

 

[pt1gard]

Career assist to turnover ratios

stockton 3.73
mark jackson 3.27
k. johnson 2.97
GP 2.97
nash 2.93
magic 2.89
kidd 2.79
Isiah 2.46
Lebron 2.20*
bird 2.02
MJ 1.96
Tmac 1.94
wade 1.62*
iverson 1.59
kobe 1.57


* tossed out their rookie year, based on this year's ... Kobe's in 2005 was career low 1.47

I've always valued this stat (coaches at all levels refer and defer to it) for a backcourt player b/c it can't be occluded, it shows who takes care of the ball combined with intelligent plays.

 

[Scott4USC]

Pt1gard you keep bring these stats. They support your argument but let me tell you why I think they are bogus. Kobe this year was 1 man show with NO star player next to him. Lakers hoped Odom would be but he isn't. So that has a LOT to with his turnovers and numbers being down.

Over Kobe's career and including this last season there is one constant you fail to mention. Kobe constantly bailed his teamates. How many times was Kobe forced to shoot with clock shot winding down. All his role players stand around and this was with Shaq years and last season. So many times in each and every game his teammates would dump him the ball with clock winding down and Kobe jacking it up. Kobe doesn't care about shooting % etc.

We cannot judge Kobe until he gets a superstar to play alongside him and solid role players. That should be in 2 years.

Stop comparing him to Jordan/Bulls, Wade/Heat, Shaq/Heat etc. Not fair comparisons to Kobe. In 2 years you will be able too. When Shaq was on Lakers, it was KOBE/SHAQ thats it. Still won 3 Titles and 4 straight finals appearances.

Did the Bulls make the playoffs when Jordan retired?

When Jordan played for Bulls, did Scottie Pippen come in shape and play hard? Pippen top 50 player in history right? If you want good laugh, compare Jordans role players vs Kobes role players.

This year, is Wade playing with Shaq who came in shape to play and motivated? Eastern conf. too! Want another good laugh, compare Wades role players to Kobe's role players.

What did Kobe have going for him?

Now I do not feel sorry for Kobe. He took the $$$ and fame to sign with Lakers. IMO, he should have signed with Clippers. He would be contending for NBA titles for LONG time with that Clipper team and all that talent. Match made in heaven especially since he is friends with 2 of there players. I heard Kobe was REAL close to doing it too. If Kobe went to Clippers I would bet them to win it all and would really enjoy watching them play basketball. Man that would be sweet!

i usually don't like to get involved in these threads,but when i hear that kobe is at the crossroads of his career at the age of 26 i got to chime in.no disrespect but i totally disagree.
call me crazy,but if i am starting a franchise today and keep this in mind,i want to win right away as in the next 2 too 3 years i am taking this guy.just because the lakers sucked this season does not mean he is not the player he used to be.
he still averaged 27.6 ppg.
he had 10 games with 40 + points
20 games of 30 + points
yea his fg % was down to 43% he also took more 3 point shots then ever before ,plus he was the only guy on the team who can score(lmao)
somebody also said his body is getting beat up,he was 5th in the league in minutes played 40.7
anyway as far as i see it he is still a kid with plenty of stardum left in his body.
good luck and enjoy

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