The Pope's Immunity Could Be Challenged in Britain

WhatsHisNuts

Woke
Forum Member
Aug 29, 2006
28,143
1,422
113
50
Earth
www.ffrf.org
Pope's immunity could be challenged in Britain

<cite class="vcard"> By PAISLEY DODDS, Associated Press Writer Paisley Dodds, Associated Press Writer </cite> <abbr title="2010-04-04T04:17:25-0700" class="recenttimedate">1 hr 10 mins ago</abbr>
<!-- end .byline --> LONDON ? Protests are growing against Pope Benedict XVI's planned trip to Britain, where some lawyers question whether the Vatican's implicit statehood status should shield the pope from prosecution over sex crimes by pedophile priests.
More than 10,000 people have signed a petition on Downing Street's web site against the pope's 4-day visit to England and Scotland in September, which will cost U.K. taxpayers an estimated 15 million pounds ($22.5 million).
The campaign has gained momentum as more Catholic sex abuse scandals have swept across Europe.
Although Benedict has not been accused of any crime, senior British lawyers are now examining whether the pope should have immunity as a head of state and whether he could be prosecuted under the principle of universal jurisdiction for an alleged systematic cover-up of sexual abuses by priests.
Universal jurisdiction ? a concept in international law ? allows judges to issue warrants for nearly any visitor accused of grievous crimes, no matter where they live.
Lawyers are divided over the immunity issue. Some argue that the Vatican isn't a true state, while others note the Vatican has national relations with about 170 countries, including Britain. The Vatican is also the only non-member to have permanent observer status at the U.N.
Then again, no other top religious leaders enjoy the same U.N. privileges or immunity, so why should the pope?
David Crane, former chief prosecutor at the Sierra Leone war crimes tribunal, said it would be difficult to implicate the pope in anything criminal.
"It's a fascinating kind of academic, theoretical discussion," said Crane, who prosecuted Sierra Leone's Charles Taylor when he was still a sitting head of state. "At this point, there's no liability at all."
But Geoffrey Robertson, who as a U.N. appeals judge delivered key decisions on the illegality of conscripting child soldiers and the invalidity of amnesties for war crimes, believes it could be time to challenge the immunity of the pope ? and Britain could be the place. He wrote a legal opinion on the topic that was published Friday in the U.S. news site The Daily Beast and Saturday in the British newspaper the Guardian.
"Unlike in the United States, where the judges commonly uphold what the executive says, the British courts don't accept these things at face value," Robertson told The Associated Press on Saturday. "The Vatican is not a state ? it was a construct of Italian dictator Benito Mussolini."
But Jeffrey Lena, the California attorney who argued ? and won ? head of state immunity for Benedict in U.S. sex abuse cases, said the pope could not successfully be prosecuted for crimes under international law.
"Those who would claim that 'universal jurisdiction' could be asserted over the pope appear to completely misunderstand the sorts of violations, such as genocide, which are required to assert such jurisdiction," he said in a statement to the AP.
Still, Israeli officials, including former Prime Minister Ehud Barak, have recently been targeted by groups in Britain under universal jurisdiction. The law principle is rooted in the belief that certain crimes ? such as genocide, war crimes, torture and crimes against humanity ? are so serious that they are an offense against humanity and must be addressed.
It's a tactic that the British government would likely abhor, but British judges have often gone against government wishes in lawsuits.
Recent examples include British judges who issued an arrest warrant against Israel's former foreign minister for alleged war crimes, and a British court ruling this year that forced the government to release its intelligence exchanges with U.S. officials about the torture claims of a former Guantanamo detainee.
Prosecution in the deepening cleric sex abuse scandal, however, ultimately rests on the question of immunity. If British judges do challenge the pope's immunity, there are a handful of possible legal scenarios ? all of them speculative.
The pope could be served for a writ for civil damages, a complaint could be lodged with the International Criminal Court, or abuse victims could try to have Benedict arrested for crimes against humanity ? perhaps the least likely scenario.
Lawyers question whether an alleged systematic cover-up could be considered a crime against humanity ? a charge usually reserved for the International Criminal Court ? and whether it could be pursued under universal jurisdiction.
Attorney Jennifer Robinson in London, who has been researching the possibilities, says rape and sexual slavery can be considered crimes against humanity.
Others, like Hurst Hannum with the Fletcher School of Law & Diplomacy at Tufts University near Boston, are skeptical.
"No one would question that the Church's response to widespread abuses has been atrocious, but it's very difficult for me to see how that would fit 'crimes against humanity,'" said Hannum.
Robertson is more in favor of challenging the immunity question.
"Head of state immunity provides no protection in the International Criminal Court," said Robertson, who represented The Associated Press and other media organizations who sought to make U.S.-U.K. intelligence exchanges public in the case of former Guantanamo detainee Binyam Mohamed.
"If acts of sexual abuse by priests are not isolated or sporadic events but part of a wide practice both known to and unpunished by their de facto-authority ? i.e. the Catholic Church ... then the commander can be held criminally liable," Robertson said.
Even though the Vatican ? like the United States ? did not sign the accord that established the international court, a crime would only have to occur in a country which did sign, like Britain. Still, lawyers would have to prove that the crimes or an alleged cover-up occurred or continued after the court was set up in July 2002.
In a 2005 test case in Texas that involved alleged victims of sex abuse by priests, the Vatican obtained the intervention of President George W. Bush, who agreed the pope should have immunity against such prosecutions because he was an acting head of a foreign state.
It was around 1929 when Mussolini decided that the Vatican ? a tiny enclave about 0.17 of a square mile with some 900 people ? was a sovereign state.
"The notion that statehood can be created by another country's unilateral declaration is risible," Robertson said.
Others say the last 80 years of history have turned the Vatican into a state, and it would be almost impossible to strip the pope of his immunity now.
"My guess is the weight of opinion would allow the pope to enjoy immunity," said Hannum. "It's not automatically clear that the Holy See is a state, although it's treated as one for almost every purpose."
Last year, a Palestinian bid to have Barak ? the Israeli defense chief who also served as prime minister until 2001 ? arrested for alleged war crimes during a visit to Britain failed when the courts determined that he should be given immunity from arrest.
But months later, pro-Palestinian activists persuaded a London judge to issue an arrest warrant for Israeli politician Tzipi Livni, who was foreign minister during the 2008-2009 war in Gaza. The warrant was eventually withdrawn after Livni canceled her trip.
Spain and Britain jointly pioneered the universal jurisdiction concept when, in 1998, Britain executed a Spanish arrest warrant for former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet on torture claims. Pinochet was kept under house arrest in London until he was ruled physically and mentally unfit to stand trial and released in 2000.
When he was arrested, however, Pinochet was no longer head of state.
In 2001, activists brought Israel's then-Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to trial in Belgium in connection with a 1982 massacre at a Beirut refugee camp. Sharon canceled a planned trip to Belgium and was tried in absentia in a Belgian court. He was not convicted but the case provoked diplomatic protests and prompted Belgium in 2003 to tighten the law that had permitted the trial.
Prime Minister Gordon Brown has vowed to block private groups from taking legal action against visiting foreign dignitaries but any new law is unlikely before Britain's expected May 6 election.
The pope plans to visit Malta, Portugal and Cyprus before traveling to Britain on Sept. 16. A trip to Spain is planned for later in the fall.
 

Lumi

LOKI
Forum Member
Aug 30, 2002
21,104
58
0
58
In the shadows
Good Luck

Try to get Vatican City to pay all of their unpaid utilities which total over 10 Million dollars, in todays money 5000 :mj07:
 

gardenweasel

el guapo
Forum Member
Jan 10, 2002
40,575
226
63
"the bunker"
seriously..probably the same assholes that wanted to try bush as a war criminal.....ehud barack?......

oh my....:rolleyes:

these people are cowards...where the hell are the muslim leaders that direct jihad that are directly responsible for the murder of millions based on nothing more than religious persecution??....

the problem is that these socialists in europe don`t have the balls to say anything against islam`s massive effort to murder anyone not of their faith...why?...because they hit back...

they prefer to take the politically correct path of least resistance...

and anyway...this guy was no where near the papacy when most of this shit hit the fan...why would they prosecute him?.......maybe we should prosecute angela merkel for hitler`s indiscretions?...

to these enlightened elites,that doesn`t matter....

mighty white of them...
 

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
He certainly has been responsible for not acting many times in his career, and he represents the face of the Church. The world is asked to look at him that way, and there should be responsibilities that come with that. But the fact is - he HAS been responsible for shit-hitting-the-fan acts - or at the very least shit should have hit the fan had these acts been dealt with and not hidden from public view or paid off "for the good of the church." What about the good of the children, or good of society at large?

We certainly have seen other cases where religious rights do not preclude common sense when it comes to acts proper society deems to be deviant. I'd say, from what I've read, there have been countless such acts in the Catholic Church, and steps should be taken to prevent these acts now and in the future.
 

WhatsHisNuts

Woke
Forum Member
Aug 29, 2006
28,143
1,422
113
50
Earth
www.ffrf.org
Here's a couple of blurbs from an article I posted a few days back....

Germany

? After rumors first surfaced in January, this month a senior Vatican official disclosed that a German priest working in the Archdiocese of Munich and Freising, which Ratzinger then administered, was accused of molesting boys. (The church hadn?t yet released the priest?s name, but he has since been identified as Peter Hullerman.) Church officials approved a treatment course of therapy for Hullerman in 1980.

? Hullerman was subsequently permitted to resume pastoral duties ? a move that Ratzinger approved, even though a junior official in the archdiocese took the substantive blame for putting Hullerman back into parish work ? and into the path of more young children.
 

WhatsHisNuts

Woke
Forum Member
Aug 29, 2006
28,143
1,422
113
50
Earth
www.ffrf.org
Abuse hotline set up by Catholic Church in Germany melts down on first day as 4,000 people phone in


<script src="http://scripts.dailymail.co.uk/js/diggthis.js" type="text/javascript"></script>
By Allan Hall
Last updated at 11:26 AM on 03rd April 2010
An abuse hotline set up by the Catholic Church in Germany melted down on its first day of operation as more than 4,000 alleged victims of paedophile and violent priests called in to seek counselling and advice.
The numbers were far more than the handful of therapists assigned to deal with them could cope with.

In the end only 162 out of 4,459 callers were given advice before the system was shut down.
Andreas Zimmer, head of the project in the Bishopric of Trier, admitted that he wasn't prepared for "that kind of an onslaught'.


article-1263108-08F5CBE7000005DC-336_468x455.jpg
Defence: The Pope celebrates Mass at the Vatican yesterday. The abuse hotline was set up as part of the Church's attempt to win back trust in the face of escalating abuse claims that threaten Benedict's papacy

The hotline is the Church's attempt to win back trust in the face of an escalating abuse scandal that threatens the papacy of German-born Pontiff Benedict XVI in Rome.
Earlier this week it was alleged that an ally of the Pope, Bishop Mixa, beat children - a charge he has subsequently denied.
Former girls and boys testified that he beat them with fists and a carpet beater which screaming; 'The devil is in you and I will drive him out!'
Also, the bishopric of Trier reported that 20 priests are suspected of having sexually abused children between the 1950s and 1990s.

Bishop Stephan Ackermann, who was appointed last year, said on Monday that three of the cases had been passed on to public prosecutors, with two more soon to follow.
German media are calling the scandal 'the hour of the children'. Silent, often for decades after pressure was applied to both them and their families by the Church, they are now finding the courage to speak out.
The effect on the Catholic Church in Germany has been profound; people are leaving in droves, de-registering with the government department that levies an annual tax of 800 pounds each on worshippers to fund it.
A quarter of Catholics in Germany said in a recent survey they had lost faith in the Church leadership.
Pope Benedict XVI allegedly knew about one particularly disturbing paedophile case in the United States.

The Rev. Lawrence Murphy spent years molesting children at a school for the deaf in Wisconsin, but when the case came to the attention of the Vatican many years later, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, then led by Cardinal Ratzinger before he became pope, declined to take action.
The pope made no mention of the scandal during his pre-Easter mass at the Vatican yesterday.
 

Skulnik

Truth Teller
Forum Member
Mar 30, 2007
21,010
250
83
Jefferson City, Missouri
seriously..probably the same assholes that wanted to try bush as a war criminal.....ehud barack?......

oh my....:rolleyes:

these people are cowards...where the hell are the muslim leaders that direct jihad that are directly responsible for the murder of millions based on nothing more than religious persecution??....

the problem is that these socialists in europe don`t have the balls to say anything against islam`s massive effort to murder anyone not of their faith...why?...because they hit back...

they prefer to take the politically correct path of least resistance...

and anyway...this guy was no where near the papacy when most of this shit hit the fan...why would they prosecute him?.......maybe we should prosecute angela merkel for hitler`s indiscretions?...

to these enlightened elites,that doesn`t matter....

mighty white of them...

Totally agree, they are COWARDS.
 

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
Interesting how two people here will go so far as to be indignant as to THIS situation, by bringing up something completely different. As far as I can tell, Britain, the government, and most "legals" there have been on the side of fighting the terrorists, and finding their behavior reprehensive.

Let me ask Wease and Skully (although I can't see his responses unless someone quotes them, thankfully) - are you guys Catholic? If so, I guess I could see some indignation at this. If not, from most sensible perspectives, you both are condoning the sexual abuse of children. If you don't think this particular Pope has been faced with this situation, and decided to hide it for "the good of the church", then explain how you see it. Maybe you should read what has gone on with THIS Pope, and many who support him, throughout the years.

Seems as simple as that to me. Care to comment? I don't pretend to understand the thinking that worshipping some kind of God makes you think you need to kill both yourself and others to find a sort of martyrdom. But I guess I understand even more negatively - violently negatively - the thinking it's ok for a supposed Man of God to commit sexual acts against young boys. There's something somehow even more hideous to me in that - not fathoming the other thing too well...

But, maybe this is all, just me... :shrug:
 

Lumi

LOKI
Forum Member
Aug 30, 2002
21,104
58
0
58
In the shadows
It's not you Chad
It's a circling the wagons mentality.
Same thing is happening with the POTUS
To clarify, the POTUS is not accused of Pedo.
Just that his base circles the wagons when the fit hits the shan
 

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
Believe me, I can understand the circling the wagons philosophy in most cases. It's just in this case such an insidious set of circumstances that fly in the face of what I KNOW to be crimes against both what the Church stands for, let alone what humanity stands for. And it's not like the Church is even denying that these things happened, many of them, anyway. And the only real excuse that I've seen, is that some of these boys are beyond a certain age - which I guess makes it somewhat consensual? I don't know. Does the Catholic Church condone homosexuality? Maybe it does - I haven't noticed that in the past.
 

gardenweasel

el guapo
Forum Member
Jan 10, 2002
40,575
226
63
"the bunker"
Interesting how two people here will go so far as to be indignant as to
Seems as simple as that to me. Care to comment? I don't pretend to understand the thinking that worshipping some kind of God makes you think you need to kill both yourself and others to find a sort of martyrdom. But I guess I understand even more negatively - violently negatively - the thinking it's ok for a supposed Man of God to commit sexual acts against young boys. There's something somehow even more hideous to me in that - not fathoming the other thing too well...

But, maybe this is all, just me... :shrug:

not at all...it`s selective prosecution......politically correct,left wing politics run amok... it`s europe.....

chidren being abused is horrific....genocide and the slaughter of innocent civilians by the thousands..hell,the hundreds of thousands...(and a religion enabling and encouraging it) tips the scale big time when you`re discussing moral equivalence....

and i`m not even mentioning the use of civilians as human shields against their will...or the use of retarded individuals and children as human bombs..

i saw that they were trying to try israeli officials when it`s been proven that hamas was specifically responsible for the heinous actions i outlined above...

if you want specific examples,give me the word...

please post the link that demonstrates that the world court is attempting to prosecute any of the mullahs or hamas leaders for their barbarity... for their role in jihad all over the world...

these are nothing more than political,kangaroo courts...


what say you chad?...
 
Last edited:

Lumi

LOKI
Forum Member
Aug 30, 2002
21,104
58
0
58
In the shadows
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/qyQjiXSlU_w&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/qyQjiXSlU_w&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
 

Lumi

LOKI
Forum Member
Aug 30, 2002
21,104
58
0
58
In the shadows
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nHGOl-jfUK0&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nHGOl-jfUK0&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
 

WhatsHisNuts

Woke
Forum Member
Aug 29, 2006
28,143
1,422
113
50
Earth
www.ffrf.org
Weasel: Killing in the name of religion is an accepted practice because they do it in the name of the "Almighty"....and it just wouldn't be right to prosecute based on religious beliefs. Sticking your dick in little boys is not tied to religion, it is just protected by it. Make sense yet?
 

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
Wease, you certainly have a right to criticize what you see as being inconsistent. In my opinion, I don't - and apparently neither do you - see these two things as being the same. Therefore, IMO, they should be treated differently, and perhaps both should be dealt with. While I'm not sure holding "leaders" from unnamed countries - more of a pack of wild dogs, I suppose - liable for acts committed across the globe, when in many cases you don't know where they are - seems to be a much different scenario. Worth looking at, and criticizing if you like, sure.

But THIS particular situation is worthy of a look, and probable action in my way of thinking. I think the one guy summed it up pretty well: "If acts of sexual abuse by priests are not isolated or sporadic events but part of a wide practice both known to and unpunished by their de facto-authority ? i.e. the Catholic Church ... then the commander can be held criminally liable," Robertson said.

Of course as it points out in the article, Bush stepped in to protect the Pope as a chief of state and above prosecution for actions, and I don't agree with that, either. I don't think a person's position precludes them from examination or prosecution if they are part and parcel to sex crimes. They enjoy the benefits of their position, and that position, in my opinion, should not allow them to act outside conventional societal - let alone religious - behaviors. Certainly, the sovereign Church is not going to act against itself and it's supreme leader, so I think it's appropriate to force a public look at what is going on.
 
Bet on MyBookie
Top