The truth hurts

[gardenweasel]

bobby...as i said numerous times, there were numerous reasons for removing saddam....

you can cut and paste a news article...i can do the same...

i actually took the time to outline the reasons for removing him....

it wasn`t just terrorist ties.....paying suicide bombers et al.....it was his history of destabilizing the middle east..and threatening to obliterate israel...and so many other recurring transgressions and aggressions...it`s absurd...

when we get a signed statement from terrorists stating that they spent time in iraq,then i`m sure you`ll pull some article from some leftwing mainstream news agency or blog to debunk that...

and even though you want to narrowly frame the issue only in terms of iraqi terrorist ties(and i won`t buy that premise),i can surely fill several panels with reported iraqi ties with terrorist entities...

lol

 

[kosar]

and even though you want to narrowly frame the issue only in terms of iraqi terrorist ties(and i won`t buy that premise),i can surely fill several panels with reported iraqi ties with terrorist entities...

No you can't(fill 'panels'), because it's simply not true. Saddam paying a few families of Palestinian suicide bombers 20 grand after the fact is NOT a valid reason for an invasion.

Here's a simple, undisputable fact. Saddam is, was, and always has been a bitter emeny of Al-Qaeda. Bin Laden and co. are fanatical Muslims and Saddam has never had much interest in religion. Period. They hate each other.

Yes, they both hate Israel, as does the whole region. Every last country in the ME would love for Israel to cease to exist.

Again, it's a testament to this admin (the latest coming from Rove) that intelligent people like GW actually believe that Saddam is and/or was correlated with any terrorist activities perpetrated against the US.

 

[gardenweasel]

kosar...you`re funny...


Actually, Saddam Hussein knew plenty about terrorism. In essence, he owned and operated a full-service general store for global terrorists, complete with cash, diplomatic aid, safe haven, training, and even medical attention. Such assistance violated United Nations Security Council Resolution 687. The results not only broke international law, but also were deadly, as this chart demonstrates:

The public evidence of Saddam Hussein’s cooperation with and support for global terrorists is abundant and clear. The Baathist government’s contacts and collaboration with terrorists in general, al-Qaeda in particular...

Let’s start with money. At a minimum, we know that Saddam Hussein’s government supported terrorism by paying "bonuses" of up to $25,000 to the families of Palestinian homicide bombers. How do we know this? Tariq Aziz, Hussein's own deputy prime minister, was stunningly candid about the Baathist government’s underwriting of terrorist killings in Israel. ...

 

[gardenweasel]

“President Saddam Hussein has recently told the head of the Palestinian political office, Faroq al-Kaddoumi, his decision to raise the sum granted to each family of the martyrs of the Palestinian uprising to $25,000 instead of $10,000,” Aziz, announced at a Baghdad meeting of Arab politicians and businessmen on March 11, 2002, Reuters reported the next day.8


A little over three months after that carnage, Mrs. Khaldiya Isma’il Abd al-Aziz al-Hurani collected a check for $25,000 as a bonus for her son’s suicide and his homicide of nearly a dozen others. The following check was a “President Saddam Hussein’s Grant” paid via the Palestine Investment Bank. These funds were transferred on June 23, 2002.

In another case, Usama Muhammad Id Bahr and Nabil Mahmud Jamil Halbiyyah blew themselves up in Jerusalem's Zion Square on December 1, 2001. Before setting off to "martyrdom," they also left a car bomb set on a timer two blocks away. It exploded just as rescue workers and emergency personnel arrived on the scene.

shall i continue....want some americans?.....

 

[BobbyBlueChip]

gw,

My copying and pasting was for dogs benefit. It wasn't a response to you.

Saddam was a bad guy. But, I wouldn't risk my life, nor anyone in my family, nor any member of the army or the national guard to remove him.

In response to your post above, I have no love at all for Germany or France, but I doubt their veto powers were used because they wanted to fill some corporate bank accounts. Some are quick to point the finger over the pond, but when the same circumstantial evidence is presented about our "liberation", suddenly any accusation is dismissed as a liberal media who is in bed with the terrorists.

 

[gardenweasel]

In addition to funds, Saddam Hussein's government provided diplomatic help to Islamic extremists.

This is Abu Abbas, former secretary general of the Palestine Liberation Front. He masterminded the October 7-9, 1985 hijacking of an Italian cruise ship whose name, sadly, is now synonymous with terrorism. The Achille Lauro was on a voyage across the Mediterranean when four Palestinian terrorists seized it on the high seas. They held some 400 passengers hostage for 44 hours.

At one point, they segregated the Jewish passengers on board. One of them was a 69-year-old New York retiree named Leon Klinghoffer. He happened to be confined to a wheelchair. Without mercy, Abu Abbas’ men shot Klinghoffer, then rolled him, wheelchair and all, into the Mediterranean.



Leon Klinghoffer (left), terror victim

The hijackers surrendered to Egyptian authorities in exchange for safe passage to Tunisia. Abu Abbas then joined them on a flight to freedom aboard an Egypt Air jet. However, four U.S. fighter planes forced the airliner to land at a NATO base in Sicily. Italian officials took the hijackers into custody. But Abbas possessed the ultimate get-out-of-jail card: An Iraqi diplomatic passport.

How do we know this?


The source for this information is not Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh. It is none other than this man, Bettino Craxi. At that time, he was Italy’s prime minister. As Craxi explained in an October 14, 1985 UPI story: “Abu Abbas was the holder of an Iraqi diplomatic passport…The plane was on an official mission, considered covered by diplomatic immunity and extra-territorial status in the air and on the ground.” Seeing that this terrorist traveled as a credentialed Iraqi diplomat, the Italian authorities let Abbas flee to Yugoslavia. After political parties furiously withdrew from Craxi’s coalition, the Italian government collapsed. 11




The man pictured below is Hisham al Hussein, the former second secretary at Iraq’s embassy in Manila.

 

[gardenweasel]

The Philippine government expelled him on February 13, 2003, just five weeks before the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Cell phone records indicate he had spoken with Abu Madja and Hamsiraji Sali, two leaders of Abu Sayyaf, al-Qaeda’s de facto franchise for the Philippines. The timing was particularly suspicious, as he had been in contact with the Abu Sayyaf terrorists just before and after they conducted an attack in Zamboanga City.



Abu Sayyaf’s nail-filled bomb exploded on October 2, 2002, injuring 23 individuals and killing two Filipinos and one American. That American was U.S. Special Forces Sergeant First Class Mark Wayne Jackson, age 40.




In a tragically familiar scene (above), soldiers bring home the flag-draped casket of another American terror victim. U.S. Special Forces Sergeant First Class Mark Wayne Jackson (right) was killed October 2, 2002 in a bomb attack by Abu Sayyaf, al-Qaeda's Philippine franchise.

As Dan Murphy wrote in the February 26, 2003 Christian Science Monitor, those tell-tale cell phone records bolster the televised claim by Hamsiraji Sali, a top Abu Sayyaf terrorist, that the Iraqi diplomat had offered this group of Islamo-fascists Baghdad’s help with joint missions. 12
Safe Haven for Terrorists

Beyond cash and diplomatic help, Saddam Hussein was the Conrad Hilton of the terrorist world. He provided a place for terrorists to kick back, relax, and reflect after killing people for a living.



...

 

[gardenweasel]

bobby...i apologize...i didn`t mean to jump you....

i need you during march madness...

as i said,i`m looking forward to football season...

kosar...there`s much more,if you need me...

 

[gardenweasel]

After escaping Italian police in October 1985 following the Achille Lauro hijacking (thanks to his Iraqi diplomatic passport), Abu Abbas finally ended up in Baghdad in 1994, where he lived comfortably as one of Saddam Hussein’s guests. U.S. soldiers caught Abbas in Iraq in April 2003. This time, he did not get away. He died last March 9, in American custody, reportedly of natural causes.





Abbas' Baghdad sojourn was not an isolated incident. Saddam Hussein granted avowed international terrorists refuge in Baathist Iraq. Terror mastermind Abu Nidal also enjoyed his hospitality.






Abu Nidal, Iraqi-supported terrorist

Nidal lived comfortably in Iraq between 1999 and August 2002. As the Associated Press reported on August 21, 2002, Nidal’s Beirut office said he entered Iraq “with the full knowledge and preparations of the Iraqi authorities.” 13 Prior to his relocation, he ran the eponymous Abu Nidal Organization — a Palestinian terror network behind attacks in 20 countries, at least 407 confirmed murders, and some 788 other terror-related injuries. Among other savage acts, Nidal’s group used guns and grenades to attack a ticket counter at Rome’s Leonardo da Vinci airport on December 27, 1985. Another cell in Austria simultaneously assaulted Vienna’s airport, killing 19 people.



Rome's Leonardo da Vinci airport littered with corpses after

a December 27, 1985 attack by the Abu Nidal Organization

Among the five Americans that Abu Nidal murdered that day was John Buonocore III, a 20-year-old Fairleigh Dickinson College student who had studied in Rome that fall semester. Buonocore was shot in the back while checking in for his flight home. He had hoped to return to Wilmington, Delaware to help his father celebrate his 50th birthday.

kosar...let me know if you need more,buddy....

 

[StevieD]

Wasn't Kadafy a terroist too but we have let him slide because....why? He took down a whole plane full of innocent people. But thats ok I guess because.......why?

 

[gardenweasel]

it`s not nice to beat up on your old friend gardenweasel...

see you guys tomorrow....

 

[kosar]

More? You haven't given anything to begin with, my man!

Does Saddam hate America? Yes, along with everybody else.

Did Saddam give that guy 20 years ago a place to reside? Yes!

Did he systemically sponsor terror against us? No!

He was a very bad man. He hated us. Everybody hates us.

He is/was NOT worth the lives that have been lost. Pretty soon, we will have lost the same that we lost on 9/11, not to mention the 12k or so maimed, and counting.

I think that we can now agree that he was, and never has been, a threat to us.

No, they were not a threat to us because they lobbed 12 scuds into Israel 15 years ago.

No, they were no threat to us because they shot flack at us (which had no hope at ever hitting our jets, and of course didn't) in northern Iraq in the no fly zone.

So because they housed the Achille Lauro guy 30 years ago, we should offer up thousands of our men to be killed or maimed?

Or some other terrorist was maybe there at some time?

Can you possibly be serious?

If that's the criteria, then we might as well declare war on the world.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

I think there were many companies including american companys that made money in oil for food--the diff between them and France and Germany they did not veto action against Iraq for failure to comply with resolutions.

Bobby I am aware of their saying Saddam was harboring terrorist--but as I said before have yet to see anything where anyone says Hussein was responsible for 9-11 seems they have always pointed finger at UBL to my recollection? It is quite a stretch to say--UBL was terrorist-and responsible for 911--the adinistration said Hussein was harboring terrorist therefore they must infer that Hussein was responsible for 911. Thats quite a stretch--wouldn't you agree?

--and I would have to agree there may be one or more terrorist in Iraq.

"Does Saddam hate America? Yes, along with everybody else."

Everyone else???--name a country who has more immigration problems than U.S.--75% of worlds population would move here if they could-kinda like Isreal we need to build fence to keep all these people "that hate us" out. Funny thing "WE" and Isreal don't have to build fences to keep our people in??

 

[kosar]

By 'everybody else,' I obviously don't mean 'everybody,' literally. It's an indisputable fact that the majority(in most cases a large majority) of the populaces of every country in the world had a poor impression or opinion of this country.

You are obviously correct in that many people want to live here. I don't think that those two things are mutually exlusive.

 

[gardenweasel]

abbas was there at the time of the invasion....lol...we grabbed him...

nidal was there from 99 too 02...lol

safe haven to murderers of americans...no prob...

ignore the facts...that `s o.k...

more?....

""The New York Times reports that Abu Nidal's Fatah Revolutionary Council murdered the following 17 Americans, at a minimum:

Americans killed in the Abu Nidal Organization's December 27, 1985 attack on Rome's airport:

*John Buonocore III, 20, of Wilmington, Delaware

*Frederick Gage of Madison, Wisconsin

*Natasha Simpson, 11, of New York

*Don Maland of New Port Richey, Florida

*Elena Tomarello, 67, of Naples, Florida

The New York Times, December 29, 1985

American executed during ANO's 1986 hijacking of a Pan Am jet at Karachi, Pakistan's airport:

*Rajesh Kumar of Huntington Beach, California

The New York Times, September 7, 1986

Americans slaughtered in ANO's September 8, 1974 bombing of a TWA jet over the Ionian Sea en route from Israel to Greece, killing all 88 aboard:

*Eitan Bard of Tuckahoe, New York

*Seldon Bard of Tuckahoe, New York

*Ralph H. Bosh of Madison, Connecticut

*Jon L. Cheshire of Old Lyme, Connecticut

*Jeremiah Hadley of Poughkeepsie, New York

*Katherine Hadley Michel of Poughkeepsie, New York

*Frederick Hare of Bernardsville, New Jersey

*Margaret Hare of Bernardsville, New Jersey

*Don H. Holliday of Mahwah, New Jersey

*Dr. Frederick Stohlman of Newton, Massachusetts

*Mrs. Frederick Stohlman of Newton, Massachusetts

The New York Times, September 10, 1974

If there is any justice here, perhaps it is the fact that Abu Nidal died in August 2002. Saddam Hussein’s government claimed that he committed suicide by shooting himself in the head — four times.14

* * *

So far, we have documented that Saddam Hussein harbored terrorists (many with al-Qaeda links) responsible for international mayhem and even the incidental deaths of Americans. But is there any evidence that Iraq sheltered those responsible for attacks on America?

Enter Abdul Rahman Yasin, pictured below in a U.S. State Department "Wanted" poster.

more to come...

 

[gardenweasel]

This Indiana-born, Iraqi-reared terrorist remains wanted by the FBI for his role in the February 26, 1993 World Trade Center attack. President Bill Clinton's Justice Department indicted Yasin for mixing the chemicals in the bomb that exploded in the parking garage beneath the Twin Towers, killing six and injuring 1,042 people in New York.




Soon after the smoke cleared, Yasin returned to Iraq. Coalition forces have discovered documents that show he enjoyed housing and a monthly government salary.

Former ABC News correspondent Sheila MacVicar looked for Yasin, and here is what she reported on July 27, 1994: “Last week, [television program] Day One confirmed [Yasin] is in Baghdad…Just a few days ago, he was seen at [his father’s] house by ABC News. Neighbors told us Yasin comes and goes freely.”

Former ABC News correspondent

Sheila MacVicar

mcvicar was a cutie...

Since Iraq was liberated, Yasin remains at large.

 

[gardenweasel]

Medical Treatment for Terrorists

Saddam Hussein’s general store for terrorists included medical care, too.



Abu Musab al Zarqawi, Iraqi-supported terrorist

(YEP...THERE HE IS...THE DREADED AL ZARQAWI HIMSELF)...

This is Abu Musab al Zarqawi. After running an al-Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan, he found his way to Baathist Baghdad, where he reportedly checked into Olympic Hospital, an elite facility run by the late Uday Hussein, son of the captured tyrant. Zarqawi is believed to have received medical treatment for a leg injury sustained while dodging American GIs who toppled the Taliban. He convalesced in Baghdad for some two months. Once he was back on his foot, Zarqawi then opened an Ansar al-Islam terrorist training camp in northern Iraq. Zarqawi is thought to be behind the October 28, 2002 assassination of this man, Lawrence Foley:

Foley was a U.S. diplomat in Amman, Jordan who worked on international development projects. For that "transgression," he was gunned down and killed in his driveway at home.



Police crowd the blood-stained driveway

of murdered American diplomat Lawrence Foley

 

[gardenweasel]

Training for Terrorists

According to dissidents, journalists who have visited, and even United Nations weapons inspectors, Saddam Hussein appears to have offered training to terrorists, in addition to funding, diplomatic help, safe haven and medical care.

The Associated Press reports that Coalition forces shut down at least three terrorist training camps in Iraq. The most notorious of these was the base at Salman Pak, about 15 miles southeast of Baghdad. Before the war, numerous Iraqi defectors said the camp featured a passenger jet on which terrorists sharpened their air piracy skills. This satellite photo shows an urban assault training site, a three-car train for railway-attack instruction, and a commercial airliner sitting all by itself in the middle of the desert.

The man pictured below is Sabah Khodada, a former Iraqi army captain who once worked at Salman Pak. On October 14, 2001, Khodada granted an interview to PBS television program “Frontline,” stating, “This camp is specialized in exporting terrorism to the whole world.”

He added: “Training includes hijacking and kidnapping of airplanes, trains, public buses, and planting explosives in cities ... how to prepare for suicidal operations.”

He continued: “We saw people getting trained to hijack airplanes...They are even trained how to use utensils for food, like forks and knives provided in the plane.” 17

Does that sound familiar?

A map of the camp that Khodada drew from memory for “Frontline” closely matches satellite photos of Salman Pak, further bolstering his credibility.

Khodada's drawing from memory of the Salman Pak terrorist training camp (left) closely mirrors the satellite photo of the actual facility (right)...

even quotes from beloved pbs interviews......



more than a few panels,i`d say.......how much more?.....i`d like to save a little for later.... :mj08:

 

[BobbyBlueChip]

moveon.org is off limits, but husseinandterror.com is allowed in this forum?

You might want to forward the site to the CIA and the FBI because both camps have no knowledge of any Iraq sponsored terrorism against the US since '93.

 

[kosar]

That's correct, chips. Futhermore, the CIA, FBI and the bi-partisan 9/11 commission all agree that there was no relationship or cooperation between the entities. GW, you are starting to sound like Cheney. You are taking these unsubstantiated, and in fact repudiated by our own intelligence, tidbits as facts. I think Cheney is still claiming that Atta met with an Iraqi operative in Prague, when in fact it was proven that at that time Atta was in sunny Florida.

Cheney claims that Iraq was the terrorists 'geographical base.' Of course that's just another lie. In fact, that's simply ridiculous. He also threw in 9/11 when he made that staement. Ahem, Wayne?

While we have actual proof that Al-Qaeda has collaborated with, and continues to collaborate with Iran, there is no such credible evidence against Iraq. None, zero. Just because some terrorists have at one time stepped on Iraqi soil, does not mean that they had ties with Saddams regime.

Hell, half the hijackers were enjoying the bars and strip clubs in Miami and in Las Vegas shortly before the attacks.

By all accounts, Bin Laden hated Saddam and vice versa. Ol' Osama doesn't suffer secular regimes easily.

I undertsnad that as each reason for the invasion is discredited, it gets harder to justify, but aren't we almost done with the list? Please?

-The 9/11 commission reported yesterday that it has found no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda, challenging one of the Bush administration's main justifications for the war in Iraq.

Along with the contention that Saddam Hussein was stockpiling weapons of mass destruction, President Bush, Vice President Cheney and other top administration officials have often asserted that there were extensive ties between Hussein's government and Osama bin Laden's terrorist network; earlier this year, Cheney said evidence of a link was "overwhelming."

But the report of the commission's staff, based on its access to all relevant classified information, said that there had been contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda but no cooperation. In yesterday's hearing of the panel, formally known as the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, a senior FBI official and a senior CIA analyst concurred with the finding.

The staff report said that bin Laden "explored possible cooperation with Iraq" while in Sudan through 1996, but that "Iraq apparently never responded" to a bin Laden request for help in 1994. The commission cited reports of contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda after bin Laden went to Afghanistan in 1996, adding, "but they do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship. Two senior bin Laden associates have adamantly denied that any ties existed between al Qaeda and Iraq. We have no credible evidence that Iraq and al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States."

The finding challenges a belief held by large numbers of Americans about al Qaeda's ties to Hussein. According to a Harris poll in late April, a plurality of Americans, 49 percent to 36 percent, believe "clear evidence that Iraq was supporting al Qaeda has been found."

As recently as Monday, Cheney said in a speech that Hussein "had long-established ties with al Qaeda." Bush, asked on Tuesday to verify or qualify that claim, defended it by pointing to Abu Musab Zarqawi, who has taken credit for a wave of attacks in Iraq.