The United States and Christianity

[Jabberwocky]

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world... The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."

- Thomas Jefferson

 

[Tenzing]

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world... The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."

- Thomas Jefferson

Wow, cool, thanks for making me your sig. I'm sure you're not filled with hate or spite, btw.

Oh, and as you know Thomas Jefferson didn't own slaves and spent his entire life trying to make it so slaves could vote, learn to read and write, and run for public office. He would oftentimes roam the countryside and where he found slaves, becuse he couldn't look to Monticello to find any, since he owned none, he immediatly set about to free them, by any means neccesary.

Have a nice day.

 

[SpursDynasty]

Wow, cool, thanks for making me your sig. I'm sure you're not filled with hate or spite, btw.

Oh, and as you know Thomas Jefferson didn't own slaves and spent his entire life trying to make it so slaves could vote, learn to read and write, and run for public office. He would oftentimes roam the countryside and where he found slaves, becuse he couldn't look to Monticello to find any, since he owned none, he immediatly set about to free them, by any means neccesary.

Have a nice day.

not true, he owned slaves but still preached against it. *scratches head*

 

[Terryray]

Jabber:

Anyone familiar enough with Jefferson would know that half that quote couldn't have come from Jefferson.

from the scholars at the official Monticello site:

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

We are asked about this one on a fairly regular basis. As with many spurious Jefferson quotes, it is frequently seen on various Internet sites. Many sites do not cite a source, but a good number of those that do attribute this quote to a letter from TJ to a "Dr. Wood." As far as we know, TJ never wrote to an individual calling him/herself Dr. Wood. Another suspicious element is the statement that he does not find in Christianity "one redeeming feature." One presumes that Jefferson did, in fact, find some redeeming features in Christianity, otherwise he would not have taken the time to paste together his own versions of the Bible. See the report Jefferson's Religious Beliefs for more information.


......


the second part of your quote is deceptively edited to remove Jefferson's approbation of Jesus. Full quote:

"..that rational men not being able to swallow their impious heresies, in order to force them down their throats, they raise the hue and cry of infidelity, while themselves are the greatest obstacles to the advancement of the real doctrines of Jesus, and do in fact constitute the real Anti-Christ."

Letter to William Baldwin, 19 January 1810. Adams, page 344.

....

But to the larger point. Jeffersons rantings in private letters on certain aspects of Christianity hasn't much bearing on The United States. His influence on our founding is more limited than most folks think, and his manifest contradictions (as Tenzing sarcastically points out) make him less likable than many of his contemporaries.

Jefferson was used by his buddies to write the Declaration of Independence because of his superior rhetorical skills, not his brains. Jefferson had no part in writing the real stuff--the Constitution and papers arguing positions on various aspects of it. That was left to better heads. Jefferson's huge correspondence with Adams certainly confirms his second-rate status as a thinker when compared his top contemporaries on these political questions.

My ideas on Christianity and US I've stated elsewhere here, but it is true that most of these men did believe in Jesus--or in Jefferson's case, held Jesus in high esteem.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Thank your for the info Terry. I checked a couple of "sources" on this quote, but you obviously are in the know on this one. I will read up on what you have to say in that other thread. I guess my only point was to start yet another conversation on the role of Christianity in the founding and evolution of our country. My limited knowlegde has always been that the majority of our founding fathers were in fact deists. I myself am not anti-christian, but rather anti-christiandom (kierkegaard?)

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

If you check the book "The Quotable Atheist", you'll see more quotes along these lines by TJ, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, etc. If you are trying to dispute the legitimacy of these quotes based on some Monticello caretaker's opinion, that is just BS. If they could legitimately tie the quote to someone else, that's fine, but their answer isn't quite good enough. Where do they get off calling it "spurious" (ie, counterfeit)?

My opinion: They are religious people and don't want to accept it. TJ had good reason to show he was a religious man in public, he was a politician. You will certainly find evidence that he was religious, but don't discount the evidence that points in the other direction.

 

[smurphy]

I like Jesus.:shrug:

 

[Jabberwocky]

He is just alright with me.

 

[BobbyBlueChip]

He is just alright with me.

:mj07:

 

[BobbyBlueChip]

Is there really a book called the "quotable atheist"?

 

[smurphy]

Is there really a book called the "quotable atheist"?

If you have to ask, then you just don't understand.:SIB

 

[Happy Hippo]

"...Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world..."

- Thomas Jefferson

To me this quote has a lot of significance. It is not that the concept of Jesus and God are responsible for the many atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. The teachings of Jesus are actually very peaceful. But it is the dogmatic interpretation of the Bible that has led to so much hatred. I grew up a Mennonite, and in our church library was a book called the "Martyr's Mirror". This documents (in over 1100 pages) the torture and murder of Mennonites by the Catholic church, for a variety of reasons, but mainly because their dogma didn't agree with what the Mennonites wanted to believe. Even within Christianity, differences were not immune to violence. This is just one tiny example of how religious dogma has a negative influence in the world. The real-world examples are endless, as is the violence and hatred for one another.

I like what The Dalai Lama has to say:

"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness."

 

[SixFive]

I'm always intrigued by your background and upbringing, J.

We'll definitely have to chat more if we meet again at another function.

Other than that comment, I think I'll steer clear of this thread because I'll do nothing but piss others off both Christian and atheist/agnostic.