super....
i generally have a closed mind about such issues since i am married but try to stay open on others
i generally have a closed mind about such issues since i am married but try to stay open on others
This is genuinely shocking to me, how do you guys feel? On either side of Isle
- Thread starter shamrock
- Start date
dr. freeze said:
A little slow in here. Might as well post by proxy. Here's my friends response to you, freeze:
"I'm not "anti-Christian". However, this is NOT a "Christian
Nation". Yes, 75% of our residents are Christians. And yes, most of our
founding fathers were devout Christians of one faith or another (altought
not all - see Ben Franklin). The fastest growing segments of our society
today are the Evangelicals and the Non-Religious/those who do not subscribe
to the idea of organized religion. I think this is why you see more and
more animosity of this type. However, this country was founded by people
who were escaping religious persecution of various sorts (and criminals)
and wanted a nation in which they could practice their beliefs and pursue
their particular brand of happiness *without* the involvement, interference
or persecution from their government. When our government starts making
laws which are fully and inexorably interlaced with the religious beliefs
of some, but not all of our country's people...we have betrayed one the
very reasons for our country's original founding.
Having attended Catholic school for 12 years, I relate just fine to
Christians and Christianity and fully respect the right of every American
to practice or not practice his or her faith, regardless of what that faith
is, SO LONG as it is not at the expense of someone else being able to do
the same. Many (certainly not all) Evangelical Christians do not exhibit
this tolerance or respect for those who do not believe as they do....and
they are trying very hard to legislate their beliefs and their
intolerance. It is this that I find unacceptable. I think that many in
the religious right find that laws which exhibit strong liberal leanings
such as allowing for gay partner rights or for a woman's right to choose
are somehow specifically designed to be intolerant of their beliefs. This
is *not* the case. The truth is that these laws are specifically designed
to be *tolerant* of the beliefs with which Evangelicals are at odds. I
will ALWAYS fight for tolerance over intolerance, and make no apologies for it."
The problem with Christians and voting is that they vote for ONE ISSUE, abortion. I heard it many times from my wife and her friends "I could never vote for Kerry, he's for abortion." Well that sickens me because every other issue that is importnat to this country does not matter to them, only abortion, or the male counterpart who could not vote for Kerry because "I want to keep my guns" Dammit Kerry, I told you not to run on the "I'm gonna outlaw guns" campaign. Seriously what did Bush do in the last 4 years to help the anti-abortion cause, what will he do in the next 4 years, nothing, but that is why he is our president and it is a damn shame.
Want to know how the anti-christ will come into power?? He will offer to outlaw abortion and give tax breaks and the Christian community will vote him into power and be proud of it.
You Christians are too single minded to vote for the good of a country, you are not concerned with the country, only feeling good about wearing your little anti-abortion pins. Guess what, I am against abortion as well, but I am also for the good of the country, a little point you Christians seem to miss.
Want to know how the anti-christ will come into power?? He will offer to outlaw abortion and give tax breaks and the Christian community will vote him into power and be proud of it.
You Christians are too single minded to vote for the good of a country, you are not concerned with the country, only feeling good about wearing your little anti-abortion pins. Guess what, I am against abortion as well, but I am also for the good of the country, a little point you Christians seem to miss.
how does everyone feel about michael moron making a map up on a background of george bush`s face with the picture of every deceased soldier from iraq displayed on it...
i only hope that this fat fvck had the decency to contact the families of these heroes and request their permission to use the image of their loved one....
i`d pay to get this human tick in the squared circle for just one round......
the likes of him are in large part responsible for the huge divide in this country....along with rush,katrina vanden heuvel,coulter, and these moronic bomb throwing celebrities....
he and those like him are in large part as responsible for bush winning the election as anything.....people basically overlooked the iraq fiasco and voted against all the vicious and hysterical rhetoric and attacks.....
it was a serious consideration in my decision...i just couldn`t align myself with guys like moore...
he makes limbaugh seem like a piker...
i only hope that this fat fvck had the decency to contact the families of these heroes and request their permission to use the image of their loved one....
i`d pay to get this human tick in the squared circle for just one round......
the likes of him are in large part responsible for the huge divide in this country....along with rush,katrina vanden heuvel,coulter, and these moronic bomb throwing celebrities....
he and those like him are in large part as responsible for bush winning the election as anything.....people basically overlooked the iraq fiasco and voted against all the vicious and hysterical rhetoric and attacks.....
it was a serious consideration in my decision...i just couldn`t align myself with guys like moore...
he makes limbaugh seem like a piker...
So you voted for Bush so that Moore would be unhappy???
That's sad.
In answer to the original question posed on this thread by Shamrock. It's very dissappointing, but not surprising. I wore a Kerry shirt out a lot and welcomed debate from Bush people. An amazing number of them admitted to all of Bush's failings the first 4 years, but their support came down to the gay marriage issue, abortion, or sometimes just the view that Bush had "balls". They would often even admit that Iraq was a horrible idea and it doesn't look good, but at least Bush "did something."
That's sad.
In answer to the original question posed on this thread by Shamrock. It's very dissappointing, but not surprising. I wore a Kerry shirt out a lot and welcomed debate from Bush people. An amazing number of them admitted to all of Bush's failings the first 4 years, but their support came down to the gay marriage issue, abortion, or sometimes just the view that Bush had "balls". They would often even admit that Iraq was a horrible idea and it doesn't look good, but at least Bush "did something."
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no Moore was the reason many folks who weren't engaged in politics became engaged and voted....on both sides..
however the choir he was speaking to was already passionate...the folks on the other side were not
i fit into the category you describe in the last paragraph...there is room for dissent in the conservaitve/anti-liberal faction of America....the rhetoric from the left has alienated a lot of people
however the choir he was speaking to was already passionate...the folks on the other side were not
i fit into the category you describe in the last paragraph...there is room for dissent in the conservaitve/anti-liberal faction of America....the rhetoric from the left has alienated a lot of people
i voted against the far and extreme left....when i saw moore sitting with the dignitaries at the democratic convention,that made me ill....
do you think that lieberman or bill richardson would have put moore up there?...i seriously doubt it......they are way to smart to put themselves in with such divisive company....
i`m defeinitely conservative...i didn`t dislike kerry...but i really believe that i may have switched sides in this one if the nominee had been more moderate...
moore makes me ill...i`m sure you disagree....that`s fine...
but,i think many in the country agree...as we now know...
do you think that lieberman or bill richardson would have put moore up there?...i seriously doubt it......they are way to smart to put themselves in with such divisive company....
i`m defeinitely conservative...i didn`t dislike kerry...but i really believe that i may have switched sides in this one if the nominee had been more moderate...
moore makes me ill...i`m sure you disagree....that`s fine...
but,i think many in the country agree...as we now know...
I doubt I would be more of a friend of Moore than of Bush. I'd be more likely to have a drink with Dubya - if he still drank that is.
My point about Moore has always been that he often does a great job of exposing corporate and political corruption. I like him for that. His films often let regular people tell a story about their plight that would ordinarily be silenced. Roger and Me was enlightening and F-9/11 had some poignant moments in between his exaggerations and bias.
I try to get past the personality and just look at the scoreboard. I would never vote against Bush just because Michael Savage turns my stomach.
There's no way a Kerry administration would actually take Moore into account for their policies. Kerry couldn't isolate from him though - because (believe it or not) there are some decent allies of Michael Moore. Kerry probably should have though - as apparently some people in middle were offended.
My point about Moore has always been that he often does a great job of exposing corporate and political corruption. I like him for that. His films often let regular people tell a story about their plight that would ordinarily be silenced. Roger and Me was enlightening and F-9/11 had some poignant moments in between his exaggerations and bias.
I try to get past the personality and just look at the scoreboard. I would never vote against Bush just because Michael Savage turns my stomach.
There's no way a Kerry administration would actually take Moore into account for their policies. Kerry couldn't isolate from him though - because (believe it or not) there are some decent allies of Michael Moore. Kerry probably should have though - as apparently some people in middle were offended.
penguinfan I don't think the major issue was abortion as we have had issue since Roe vs Wade.
Ironically most especially myself thought all these new1st time voters would be heavily democratic but as it turned out I believe more will be rebs--will be interestingto see stats when they come out.
But while most here have opinion it was Bush that got them out I disagree and think it was the far left that got them out. They were concerned with groups like ACLU with assualt on religion and liberal judges trying to dictate law against overwhelming unpopularity of citizens.
Had not the judge from Mass tried to mandate law on gay marriage
you would have never seen legislation to ban it on ballots in 11 states. How many people you think came out to vote on that issue in those states alone. So in my view Christain turnout was defensive measure brought by the left not offensive measure pushing an adenda of conservatives..
Ironically most especially myself thought all these new1st time voters would be heavily democratic but as it turned out I believe more will be rebs--will be interestingto see stats when they come out.
But while most here have opinion it was Bush that got them out I disagree and think it was the far left that got them out. They were concerned with groups like ACLU with assualt on religion and liberal judges trying to dictate law against overwhelming unpopularity of citizens.
Had not the judge from Mass tried to mandate law on gay marriage
you would have never seen legislation to ban it on ballots in 11 states. How many people you think came out to vote on that issue in those states alone. So in my view Christain turnout was defensive measure brought by the left not offensive measure pushing an adenda of conservatives..
DTB, I actually agree with the last 2/3's of what you said, I also don't think it was an offensive move by the Christian groups, but I have talked to and know enough of them to ASSURE you they will not vote for a candidate that is pro-choice, reguardless of any other issue, the conversation stops there with them. Is it reasonable to ignore every issue but one?
