Thug culture - Racism in America

[smurphy]

Pretty good reasoning Smurph--thank you--believe you and I can discuss this rationally.
Now appears your point lies in fact that slavery-discrimination ect is the culprit or excuse.
I will give your analysis credence if you can give me example of any country that has predominantly black population with economy that has less than 50% below poverty -moderate crime--and just a modest 50% literacy rate.

and back to stats--- maybe you'd like to explain what the countries with the lowest HDI (Human Development Index) have in common and why? What factor did the U.S. or any other country play in keeping these countries from advancing?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0778562.html

You know, if you want to prove something about people currently in Africa based on an index I've never heard of - go ahead I guess. I'm not prepared to take that on. That really is getting into a Aryan mode of superior and inferior person kind of thinking though. ....."Human Development Index?? Huh?

Mostly, I feel I have an understanding of this country. I'll just say your right about the 'country of Africa', and let you have that one.

Don't do that - dont jump to the "slavery as an excuse" angle. Slavery is part of why we are currently at this point in the United States. Legally, everything is now equal - eventually other things will level out too. Shit takes time to happen, 400 years does not reverse itself overnight. Expecting it to do so is incredibly unrealistic.

 

[smurphy]

OK, I'm skimming through my atlas to answer your challenge about predominantly black populations, poverty, crime, and literacy rates. I can quickly find racial breakdown and literacy rate. Crime and poverty may require Yahoo's help. So, for now - I'll list countries that are predominantly black and have over 50% literacy. Maybe you'll give me partial credit until I search for the rest:

Antigua & Barbuda
95% black, 87% literacy

Bahamas
85% black, 96% literacy

Barbados
90%, 99%

Botswana
98%, 79%

Brazil
58%, 86%

Burundi
99%, 50%

Cameroon
over 90%, 68%

Congo
like 100% or so, 83%

Dem. Rep. of Congo
same, 63%

.....should i keep going? there's lots more, not even through the c's yet.

 

[ImFeklhr]

Sopranos teaches not to snitch and has a lot of killing for no reason too. For some reason that show is praised and wins a bunch of awards.

I know the conversation has moved beyond this side comment you made, but I wanted to address it. Sopranos is fictional. It is celebrated for it's artistic quality, fantastic writing, acting, directing etc. Italian mob life might be romanticized in film/TV, but I think that is a far cry from promoting a non fictional culture of crime.
The characters might do awful things, which fall in line with their own moral code, but I think the show clearly, and artistically shows that these behaviors ultimately lead to unhappiness anyway.

I highly doubt there is much of a threat of the Sopranos negatively influencing todays teenagers. Isolated incidents of emulating behavior at the most.

I have no knowledge of the BET program, so I am out on a limb here, but it sounds like it is a reality based program documenting real events and real commentary about the events. I would guess this lacks any nuanced symbolism or message that would allow for a more broadbased interpretation of morality etc (a la Sopranos).

And I would say that promoting this mindset and behavior has a HIGH level of influence on teenagers who watch it.

Bottom line. Back off The Sopranos!!! :bigun: :mj07:

 

[smurphy]

point taken. i like the sopranos anyway. perhaps wasnt a great analogy...

....ALTHOUGH i would be willing to predict that we would see a lot more white people jumping all over a fictional show about black gangs with this sort of criticism than they do over a show that's essentially about Italian gangs doing the same thing.

Just a gamblers guestimate. I could be wrong, but I'd take that moneyline at at least -800.

 

[dr. freeze]

i am so sick and tired of hearing all this race BS

most of us were not around and the rest of us had nothing to do with all this crap so lets just forget about it

their own people sold them out anyway

and Americans were the ones who eventually freed them

enough already of all the racism

why would a current 2nd generation American have to put up with this garbage if he was white and be discriminated against with some kind of quota?

its all BS...

 

[smurphy]

their own people sold them out anyway

and Americans were the ones who eventually freed them

That's a ....well, interesting take on American history. Wow, it must have been planned all along ...to "purchase" Africans for their benefit in order to later free their bastardized offspring.

BY THE WAY - some slaves were sold out by other Africans - but many were simply captured and thrown aboard. ....But your version is better. White people were no way at fault - and should actually be commended for slavery.

I can tell that there will be no possible way to converse with you on this subject. Perhaps in another 50 years you will see what I've been blabbing about.

Yeah - I agree that quotas are also a form of discrimination. I also see this particular stage of our history as not suprising or outageous. Quotas will not last forever.

Hey - I couldn't get my dream internship at CalTrans because I wasn't a woman or a minority. Jesus christ, what an outrage that was. Sure held me back. I may as well have been enslaved or something.

Just relax, Freeze. Maybe think outside your tiny little bubble for once.

Or better yet - go the hell to Canada already! What are you waiting for?

 

[smurphy]

why would a current 2nd generation American have to put up with this garbage if he was white and be discriminated against with some kind of quota?

its all BS...

your right. it's bs. so leave.
:violin:

 

[kosar]

The 'poor me, i'm a white male in America' sentiment is alive and well.

 

[smurphy]

My cousin in Virginia was telling me about his time in the Army. He was based at Fort Sill, OK (lotta crazy stories there from him).

Anyway, a recent story he told made me think of something that I think every white American has taken for granted - I certainly hadn't even thought of this before. One of his army buddies was a black guy with a family. They took a family trip from Lawton to some beach in South Carolina. They had to bring 3 days worth of fuel and food with them for the drive. Why - because they had no idea where it was safe to stop along the way. They were rolling the dice just making that drive at all. Something as subtle as preparing for a family trip were entirely different between the races just 30-40 years ago.

But yeah, the greatest injustice is what whites have to put up with right now. It's almost unbearbable.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Now I been around the last 55 years and in service at that time period--and not saying it didn't happen but never heard of such a thing--granted there may be remote places but NOT cross country.

However I can think of many places today you would not drive your car through Smurph.Would you drop your wife and kids off in Harlem to go trick or treating on Halloween?? Does that make you a racist or predjudice--and would you teaching your children to be the same by example--of course not --you be statisically prudent.

My point is these Belafonte types are not helping helping their people by giving them excuses to fail.There is little excuse for failure this day and time if one has intiative which has been proven by many Blacks-Asian and other minorities.
To question which way the #'s point --does not make a person racist or predjudice--It whats in his heart that makes him so.
I dislike Spike Lee--but Morgan freeman is one of my favs-same Belofonte vs Powell ditto rap vs Lionel Richie.
When capping golf or any sport I look for #'s that will point out those that will fail that week equally as well as excell--
For one to be inquisitive does not make same a racist.
I remember when I lived in St Louis they tore down old project area and rebuilt with brand new called Pruit Igo (spl) with 18 months it looked same as one torn down--broken windows-graffitti ect and I have to wonder why.
I see people get angry and burn their own neighborhoods and ask why.
But wanting to know reasons does not make me racist by any means--as I said I open doors say thank you and treat everyone with respect--while in traffic I don't let race or gender determine who I let in--but I do not let anyone in will cell phone to their ear--therefore I would conclude I am prejudice against drivers yapping on cell phone--also prejudice against most drivers with university license plate.

P.S. do you have link to your Atlas? There is something I'd like to look up.

Appreciate the time you spent on this discussion Smurph--you are a very caring person. While Gandi/Spock type discussions will always have their differences they both have values needed in a working society.

 

[Heyward]

i am so sick and tired of hearing all this race BS
most of us were not around and the rest of us had nothing to do with all this crap so lets just forget about it
their own people sold them out anyway
and Americans were the ones who eventually freed them

Wow. I don't even know where to start. The Americans were the ones who eventually freed them? That's incredible. You make it sound like the U.S. liberated them from captivity in another country or something. And freeing them to live more than a hundred years under Jim Crow and other forms of institutionalized racism doesn't exactly take away any explanation for high crime rates, poverty, etc.

To say we weren't there so forget about it is a convenient ignoring of the root of the problems facing this country. There are a lot of Jewish people who weren't in Nazi Germany, but you would have a hard time convincing them to just forget it. Blacks in America had no prospect whatsoever for success for hundreds of years. You can't all of a sudden say that there are opportunities now, and expect everyone to know how to take advantage of them. The people who do show great dedication, but a lot of black kids growing in America today live in families where their elders have no experience with educational opportunities, and unfortunately therefore do not push the kids to seek them out. I think the concept of success is still foreign to a lot of older black Americans. And yes, DTB, whitey is responsible for that in large part. Black communities bear the responsibility of changing minds on this issue, but the reason this poor mentality is so deeply ingrained is the treatment they have endured in this country, which has only begun to change recently.

 

[djv]

One thing for sure we need our black athlete's. Dam all those Olympic medals.That is one good thing that has happen for our country. That and they sure have steped forward to serve in the military. There % is I believe as high as whites. Yes in many cases they are behind on education. As are many whites. They did get later start. Many were held back to early 60's. But one thing all should try to do is respect each other. And get as many Americans a chance at a good education.
If we want to compete in the world. We better do a good job of it.

 

[smurphy]

However I can think of many places today you would not drive your car through Smurph.Would you drop your wife and kids off in Harlem to go trick or treating on Halloween?? Does that make you a racist or predjudice--and would you teaching your children to be the same by example--of course not --you be statisically prudent.

Of course not - but I don't have to stock up on supplies in order to pass by either.

Driving across the South in the early 60's. Yeah, a black family could not take any unknown town for granted. Couldn't eat at most restaurants and flat out were not even welcome coming through most towns.

Big difference between a few days worth of driving on country highways in the 60's than the 10 minutes on the expressway that it takes to get past Harlem now.

If you are trying to say the amount of "hostile" territory was anywhere near equal, then I believe you need to crack open a US atlas. For every Harlem or Compton you come up with, I could mention 500 towns and thousands of square miles. There is again no legitimate comparison whatsoever.

 

[bear]

Well,
I grew up in NE 50 years ago and went to school with black kids..
Played ball with them... Ran with them..played with them..fought with them, ate with them etc etc........I did not know a thing about racism.......Many lived in projects (much better and safer than today) Most had dads at home.....with jobs. Not a lot of affluence but people worked HARD and did what they had to do to support their families. Good friend of mine and a fine athlete went off to college in mid 60s and came back to town bitter and militant ...He
found out about racism...first hand............sure racism existed (obviously moreso down south) but to imply that it was universal is crap and believe it or not it may have been easier back then for black children to rise to success than it is today.....because of family dynamics......families were far more stable and the gap between haves and have nots was not nearly as wide as it is today.

bear

 

[smurphy]

I'm not implying that racism was universal (or at least I don't mean to). Nor should ANYTHING about race be paintbrushed and viewed as universal. There are so many other factors - like the gap between rich and poor that you mention, Bear.

Yes - some parts of the US accepted integration faster than other parts. That makes for a wide variety of individual stories. If my cousin's friend's family was driving through New England instead of the South, I doubt they would have had to plan the trip as if they going across a massive uninhabited desert.

Bottom line - I prefer to look at individual stories than say something is inherintly wrong or inferior or whatever about an entire race. That seems to be what a lot of people want to do on this topic. Only looking at ridiculous cases to prove their point, completely ignoring the impact of history and relative short time that total equality has existed.

Yes - I think everyone is accountable for anything they do. No - I don't believe in special treatment for anyone. BUT I can very plainly see why we are where we are at this moment on the racial timeline in this country. I think if everyone is patient, the ramblings of Jessie Jackson and other annoying somewhat useless people will slowly go away.

 

[JCDunkDogs]

Good thread. Important issue. Lots of interesting points made. Here's my two cents.

how many American blacks can trace their family lineage?

I know you made this point a while ago, by I just found this thread. (Sorry). You are right, smurphy. A sense of one's family history is important. The absence of any line to trace somewhere is frustrating. The de facto expungement of black ancestry is one of those gifts of slavery that just keeps on giving (or robbing more like), generation after generation.

Most families can, if they choose, research their line. Like the lyric from the old song, "No, they can't take that away from me."

Yes they can.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

"I know you made this point a while ago, by I just found this thread. (Sorry). You are right, smurphy. A sense of one's family history is important. The absence of any line to trace somewhere is frustrating. The de facto expungement of black ancestry is one of those gifts of slavery that just keeps on giving (or robbing more like), generation after generation."

What about the current 70%+ today whose family tree only has one fork? Duh--Must go back to slavery again somehow--right? Do the math after 2 generations of compounded 70%

 

[THE KOD]

OK alot of good points made, but back to real world....

Four teenagers rolling in a late model black Impala , windows tinted black

Teenager 1 .... I got a new stolen gun I want to test it out man.

Teenager 2.... Not in my car you aint..

Teenager 3.... Yeh lets shoot some mofo

Teenager 1.... Give me a hit of that reefer laced with crack man...

Teenager 3 ..... Hey OK lets do this.....

Pop wit a glock and I stay wit a K [AK47]

If you come my way

I'm act a fool

Teenager 1 .... Hey there is little girl walking by herself.... pull up , let me pop this glock....

Teenager 3 .... Not her she looks like my sister..

Teenager 1... fawk that pull up ...... oh man go around the block again.

Teenager 2.... OK but do it this time or I am gone.....

Teenager 1... Get me close and dont wait for me....

Teenager 3... Oh man she's got a honor roll pin around her neck.. and she is carrying school books

Teenager 1... Rolls down the window....

BANG BANG BANG....

Teenager 1 .... I got her I got her in the head I got her young ass....

Pop wit a glock and I stay wit a K [AK47]

If you come my way

I'm act a fool
.......................................................................


How did we get here.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

the ones I worry about are those that use $2 words " de facto expungement" yet aren't smart enough to consider that since there were no practically no written language and no way to record anything in Africa 100 years ago --that those brought over as slaves have no less odds of uncovering their ancestors than those that remained--UNLESS we can also put it under the heading of "liberal logic"

 

[smurphy]

I guarantee that a typical citizen of Gabon has a 1,000 times better chance of tracing their family tree past 400 years than someone taken from there and put into slavery in America.

Dude - you think there was no language, no verse, no tribal historians in the nations of the slave coast until 100 years ago? I'd hate to dig up some stuff on this, but I'm absolutely sure I can.

You wanna stand by that statement and put me to work or retract the statement as complete bolgne which I guarantee it is.