Titus 2:11-14

rusty

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The reading today is this,which I will be conducting.


Titus 2:11-14 TNIV



11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope?the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
 

Chadman

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Thanks for conducting the service today, and filling our hearts with joy...

So, in studying this passage, apparently we are all God's children, and are deserving of the same respect and salvation? All of us are equal, in his/her eyes?
 

Chadman

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Can you do this one tomorrow?

Exodus 21:20-21:
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
 

Duff Miver

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Thanks for conducting the service today, and filling our hearts with joy...

So, in studying this passage, apparently we are all God's children, and are deserving of the same respect and salvation? All of us are equal, in his/her eyes?

No...no....no. Only the white, English speaking ones who have "papers".

Those who are red, yellow, olive or brown, or who speak some language other than English, or who worship some other deity, or no deity at all are not the chosen ones. BTW, that's most of the people on Earth, which just goes to prove how very very special rusty is.

It's a source of great pride for him, being one of the small minority who know the Great Truth.

big?ot (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
 

Chadman

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Had he been one of the early ones, hopefully he would have been Protestant. Otherwise, there might have been trouble.
 

Trench

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Today's Reading From...

Today's Reading From...

repjesus14.gif
 

rusty

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Can you do this one tomorrow?

Exodus 21:20-21:
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

Sure,

Here is a little prep. for yeah.Notice at that time slavery is not an issue.It also is not a black and white issue.

The Christian Scriptures and Slavery

Neither Jesus nor St. Paul, nor any other Biblical figure is recorded as saying anything in opposition to the institution of slavery. Slavery was very much a part of life in Judea, Galilee, and in the rest of the Roman Empire during New Testament times. The practice continued in England, Canada and the rest of the English Empire until the early 19th century; it continued in the U.S. until later in the 19th century.

Quoting Rabbi M.J. Raphall, circa 1861:

"Receiving slavery as one of the conditions of society, the New Testament nowhere interferes with or contradicts the slave code of Moses; it even preserves a letter [to Philemon] written by one of the most eminent Christian teachers [Paul] to a slave owner on sending back to him his runaway slave." 1

Paul's violation of the Mosaic Code on slavery:

While in prison, Paul met a runaway slave, Onesimus, the property of a Christian -- presumably Pheliemon. He sent the slave back to his owner. This action is forbidden in Deuteronomy 23:15-16:

"Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee."

"He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him."

Rather than give the slave sanctuary, Paul returned him to his owner. Paul seems to hint that he would like Pheliemon to give Onesimus his freedom, but does not actually request it. See the Letter to Philemon in the Christian Scriptures.

Other references to slavery in the Christian Scriptures:

People in debt (and their children) were still being sold into slavery in the first century CE:
bullet Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."

Priests still owned slaves:
bullet Mark 14:66: "And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest:"

Jesus is recorded as mentioning slaves in one of his parables. It is important to realize that the term "servant" or "maid" in the King James Version of the Bible refers to slaves, not employees like a butler, cook, or maid. Here, a slave which did not follow his owner's will would be beaten with many lashes of a whip. A slave who was unaware of his owner's will, but who did not behave properly, would also be beaten, but with fewer stripes.

This would have been a marvelous opportunity for Jesus to condemn the institution of slavery and its abuse of slaves. But he is not recorded of having bothered to taken it:
bullet Luke 12:45-48: "The lord [owner] of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

One of the favorite passages of slave-owning Christians was St. Paul's infamous instruction that slaves to obey their owners in the same way that they obey Christ:
bullet Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

Other passages instructing slaves and slave owners in proper behavior are:
bullet Colossians 4:1: "Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."

bullet 1 Timothy 6:1-3 "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"

In his defense, St. Paul incorrectly expected that Jesus would return in the very near future. This might have demotivated him from speaking out against slavery or other social evils in the Roman Empire. Also he regarded slaves as persons of worth whom at least God considers of importance. St. Paul mentioned that both slaves and free persons are sons of God, and thus all part of the body of Christ and spiritually equal.
bullet 1 Corinthians 12:13: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

bullet Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

bullet Colossians 3:11: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Paul apparently saw no evil in the concept of one person owning another as a piece of property. In his Letter to Philemon, he had every opportunity to discuss the immorality of slave-owning, but declined to do so.

Sponsored link:
Click here to find out more!

Reference used:
 

rusty

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Can you do this one tomorrow?

Exodus 21:20-21:
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

And the obvious.Jesus death wiped away the law.Don't you get it??????Jesus crucifixion paid for the sins,the law was abolished with his resurrection.

Do you understand that????
 

Duff Miver

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Sure,

Here is a little prep. for yeah.Notice at that time slavery is not an issue.It also is not a black and white issue.

The Christian Scriptures and Slavery

Neither Jesus nor St. Paul, nor any other Biblical figure is recorded as saying anything in opposition to the institution of slavery. Slavery was very much a part of life in Judea, Galilee, and in the rest of the Roman Empire during New Testament times. The practice continued in England, Canada and the rest of the English Empire until the early 19th century; it continued in the U.S. until later in the 19th century.

Quoting Rabbi M.J. Raphall, circa 1861:

"Receiving slavery as one of the conditions of society, the New Testament nowhere interferes with or contradicts the slave code of Moses; it even preserves a letter [to Philemon] written by one of the most eminent Christian teachers [Paul] to a slave owner on sending back to him his runaway slave." 1

Paul's violation of the Mosaic Code on slavery:

While in prison, Paul met a runaway slave, Onesimus, the property of a Christian -- presumably Pheliemon. He sent the slave back to his owner. This action is forbidden in Deuteronomy 23:15-16:

"Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee."

"He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him."

Rather than give the slave sanctuary, Paul returned him to his owner. Paul seems to hint that he would like Pheliemon to give Onesimus his freedom, but does not actually request it. See the Letter to Philemon in the Christian Scriptures.

Other references to slavery in the Christian Scriptures:

People in debt (and their children) were still being sold into slavery in the first century CE:
bullet Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."

Priests still owned slaves:
bullet Mark 14:66: "And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest:"

Jesus is recorded as mentioning slaves in one of his parables. It is important to realize that the term "servant" or "maid" in the King James Version of the Bible refers to slaves, not employees like a butler, cook, or maid. Here, a slave which did not follow his owner's will would be beaten with many lashes of a whip. A slave who was unaware of his owner's will, but who did not behave properly, would also be beaten, but with fewer stripes.

This would have been a marvelous opportunity for Jesus to condemn the institution of slavery and its abuse of slaves. But he is not recorded of having bothered to taken it:
bullet Luke 12:45-48: "The lord [owner] of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

One of the favorite passages of slave-owning Christians was St. Paul's infamous instruction that slaves to obey their owners in the same way that they obey Christ:
bullet Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

Other passages instructing slaves and slave owners in proper behavior are:
bullet Colossians 4:1: "Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."

bullet 1 Timothy 6:1-3 "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"

In his defense, St. Paul incorrectly expected that Jesus would return in the very near future. This might have demotivated him from speaking out against slavery or other social evils in the Roman Empire. Also he regarded slaves as persons of worth whom at least God considers of importance. St. Paul mentioned that both slaves and free persons are sons of God, and thus all part of the body of Christ and spiritually equal.
bullet 1 Corinthians 12:13: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

bullet Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

bullet Colossians 3:11: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Paul apparently saw no evil in the concept of one person owning another as a piece of property. In his Letter to Philemon, he had every opportunity to discuss the immorality of slave-owning, but declined to do so.

Sponsored link:
Click here to find out more!

Reference used:


LOL!!!!!! That's a better fable than Aesop.
 

Chadman

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So, are you saying with your teaching and beliefs that you think slavery is an acceptable practice for people to engage in, as far as the bible is concerned. I'm assuming you take the bible fairly literally, and referenced it here.

Or, are you saying that Jesus died to absolve people of sins, one of which is described in your passages regarding slavery?

I understand your perception of Jesus dying for our sins, based on your faith and beliefs. For the record, I think that's great for you, and I hope you find safety and security in your faith. We certainly don't have to agree on anything, and I think it's great that people exhibit faith on a personal basis. I don't personally appreciate being preached to or judged much by others though, and that's where we'll have to part ways. I don't presume to think I should determine what's best for others, in most cases, and know that I fall short of measure in most areas.

But I would like to know your thoughts on the above questions.
 

rusty

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So, are you saying with your teaching and beliefs that you think slavery is an acceptable practice for people to engage in, as far as the bible is concerned. I'm assuming you take the bible fairly literally, and referenced it here.

Or, are you saying that Jesus died to absolve people of sins, one of which is described in your passages regarding slavery?

I understand your perception of Jesus dying for our sins, based on your faith and beliefs. For the record, I think that's great for you, and I hope you find safety and security in your faith. We certainly don't have to agree on anything, and I think it's great that people exhibit faith on a personal basis. I don't personally appreciate being preached to or judged much by others though, and that's where we'll have to part ways. I don't presume to think I should determine what's best for others, in most cases, and know that I fall short of measure in most areas.

But I would like to know your thoughts on the above questions.

Slavery back then was not like owned.They were like maids who cleaned up houses,your confusing slavery to be like during the civil war.It wasn't the same thing.

You keep coming my way with this,NOT ME!!I'm not judging .Stop quoting my way and I won't respond.It's that simple:shrug:
 

Trampled Underfoot

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Slavery back then was not like owned.They were like maids who cleaned up houses,your confusing slavery to be like during the civil war.It wasn't the same thing.

You keep coming my way with this,NOT ME!!I'm not judging .Stop quoting my way and I won't respond.It's that simple:shrug:

HAHA it was only kind of like slavery. :facepalm:

It was the good kind of slavery. :facepalm:
 

Trampled Underfoot

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Slavery back then was not like owned.They were like maids who cleaned up houses,your confusing slavery to be like during the civil war.It wasn't the same thing.

No i'm pretty sure that is slavery.

slav?er?y (slv-r, slvr)
n. pl. slav?er?ies
1. The state of one bound in servitude as the property of a slaveholder or household.
2.
a. The practice of owning slaves.
b. A mode of production in which slaves constitute the principal work force.
3. The condition of being subject or addicted to a specified influence.
4. A condition of hard work and subjection:
 

rusty

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No i'm pretty sure that is slavery.

slav?er?y (slv-r, slvr)
n. pl. slav?er?ies
1. The state of one bound in servitude as the property of a slaveholder or household.
2.
a. The practice of owning slaves.
b. A mode of production in which slaves constitute the principal work force.
3. The condition of being subject or addicted to a specified influence.
4. A condition of hard work and subjection:

Yeah and??
 

Chadman

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I'm pretty sure that if one person is OWNED by another person, that kind of defines slavery. Even if they are just doing the "maid" thing...

But, believe whatever makes you feel better, Rusty. I now know I have better uses of my time than discussing issues with you. No offense, that's just my opinion. I'll stop "quoting your way," and you can stop justifying your thoughts and opinions.

I think we'll ALL be a lot better off without reading those things, you are right about that.
 

THE KOD

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Slavery back then was not like owned.They were like maids who cleaned up houses,your confusing slavery to be like during the civil war.It wasn't the same thing.
.................................................................


wow

:142smilie :facepalm: :142smilie
 
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