U.S. Healthcare vs. The Rest of the World

[Chadman]

Here's is a link to the Dorgan (D) and Vitter (R) amendment, that Obama would not allow the Dems to pass, due to his relationship with big Pharma.....

http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/dorgan-introduces-bill-will-allow-imp

Actually, the bill was introduced by Dorgan, and I'd hardly call it all that bipartisan with only 6 republicans signing on. Vitter was one of the six, and to list him as being equal to Dorgan on this is a bit fuzzy.

Certainly there was plenty of negotiation going on in the creation of the healthcare legislation - it took a lot of giving to get something done. Much of it probably is frustrating and everyone except those who profit from it would approve of. But it's impossible to do everything you'd like to do without getting some support somehow.

This pales in comparison, for instance, to years and years of republicans doing absolutely nothing about healthcare whatsoever and taking steps at every turn to block something from happening.

By the way, Mags - can you please give me a link to the republican introduced legislation about reimportation of drugs that you offered as proof of republican legislative efforts to cut costs? Maybe I missed it...

"It was offered by a Republican and had a small bit of bi-partisan support."

Otherwise, I think we're still at zero verifiable examples of republicans offering cost cutting healthcare and drug ideas...

 

[Mags]

Show us your proof of that accusation.

You have no proof, of course. In fact Obama is pushing for Medicare price negotiating ability, just the opposite from what you claim.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/201...s-medicare-to-flex-muscle-to-lower-drug-costs

You're a moron....a lying moron.

Then why did Obama have the Dems vote the reimportation bill down, dumb a**????

Cuz Obama had big pharma in his pocket. No other reason why. Had to bribe him to get his terrible healthcare bill passed - doesn't matter if it hurts the US consumer overall - it is all about increasing the dependency class for more voters.

You are stupid.

 

[Mags]

Actually, the bill was introduced by Dorgan, and I'd hardly call it all that bipartisan with only 6 republicans signing on. Vitter was one of the six, and to list him as being equal to Dorgan on this is a bit fuzzy.

Certainly there was plenty of negotiation going on in the creation of the healthcare legislation - it took a lot of giving to get something done. Much of it probably is frustrating and everyone except those who profit from it would approve of. But it's impossible to do everything you'd like to do without getting some support somehow.

This pales in comparison, for instance, to years and years of republicans doing absolutely nothing about healthcare whatsoever and taking steps at every turn to block something from happening.

By the way, Mags - can you please give me a link to the republican introduced legislation about reimportation of drugs that you offered as proof of republican legislative efforts to cut costs? Maybe I missed it...

"It was offered by a Republican and had a small bit of bi-partisan support."

Otherwise, I think we're still at zero verifiable examples of republicans offering cost cutting healthcare and drug ideas...

That bill was cosponsored by Dorgan and Vitter.

 

[Duff Miver]

Then why did Obama have the Dems vote the reimportation bill down, dumb a**????

Cuz Obama had big pharma in his pocket. No other reason why. Had to bribe him to get his terrible healthcare bill passed - doesn't matter if it hurts the US consumer overall - it is all about increasing the dependency class for more voters.

You are stupid.

Even your mother is embarrassed:facepalm: .

 

[ssd]

Muff:
What was the direct question?

I said the best does not mean free. If you have the $, I would say the best care is available in the US.

I did not read your link yet.

Yes - she was diagnosed by an internist and a scan - her appt was scheduled - she showed up and the onco did not. Her appt was rescheduled and she died prior to it.

Sponge:
Sure - and I have family in Canada who would happily change their system or come here. What is your point?

 

[Trench]

If you have the $, I would say the best care is available in the US.

Yes, if you're one of those wealthy Saudi's you mentioned, some of the best healthcare in the world can certainly be found here in the U.S.

The problem is healthcare costs are slowly, but surely, strangling our economy and it's only going to get worse as our increasingly obese society ages. Each generation is more obese than the previous.

I'd like to hear some ideas on how we're ever going to bring healthcare costs under control without single-payer. :shrug:

 

[Chadman]

That bill was cosponsored by Dorgan and Vitter.

Are you suggesting that Vitter had anything more to do with this bill than the other 29 co-sponsors on the bill?

The actual link to the official legislation shows Dorgan as the official sponsor. No other legislators are listed as sponsors - there is just a link that shows the 30 other co-sponsors.

Not sure what you're trying to show with just signaling out Vitter here, but I'm pretty sure the official legislature records are a pretty good reference. Maybe you have a link that shows otherwise?

 

[Trench]

Here's is a link to the Dorgan (D) and Vitter (R) amendment, that Obama would not allow the Dems to pass, due to his relationship with big Pharma.....

http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/dorgan-introduces-bill-will-allow-imp

Hey Mags, what about it?

Chad's right. Vitter was just one of 31 co-sponsors, so why are you singling him out as a co-author of the bill when in fact he was not?

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s111-1232

Furthermore, that bill never got beyond Committee. So what proof do you have that Obama "would not allow the Dems to pass it"? :shrug:

My guess is the bill stalled in Committee because the debate over the healthcare reform was in full progress when the bill was introduced.

 

[Duff Miver]

Muff:
What was the direct question?

I said the best does not mean free. If you have the $, I would say the best care is available in the US.

I did not read your link yet.

Yes - she was diagnosed by an internist and a scan - her appt was scheduled - she showed up and the onco did not. Her appt was rescheduled and she died prior to it.

Sponge:
Sure - and I have family in Canada who would happily change their system or come here. What is your point?

Here's the question, in boldface, for the third time -

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssd View Post

As for the best healthcare in the world? I would say it is here in the US.


Is your opinion based on faith, or a BIG LIE, or facts? If fact based, what facts?

Even if rich Saudis do sometimes use US health care like the CC, so what? That says nothing about the health care available to most Americans.

No offense intended about your MIL, but one case does not define a system. I can show you cases in the USA where a surgeon amputated the wrong limb, where a pharmacist dispensed a lethal dose, where a radiologist made a gross error, but those isolated events don't tell anything about overall quality of health care, and, with all due respect, neither does your MIL's case define all of Canadian health care.

Better measures of the overall effectiveness of a health care system are things like infant mortality, median life span and net cost per patient. Health care which does not prolong life, or which prices people out is, by definition, poor health care.

Do you not agree? That is a question which you may answer if you like.

 

[Duff Miver]

So what proof do you have that Obama "would not allow the Dems to pass it"? :shrug:

Mags? Proof? LMAO!

 

[The Sponge]

Muff:
What was the direct question?

I said the best does not mean free. If you have the $, I would say the best care is available in the US.

I did not read your link yet.

Yes - she was diagnosed by an internist and a scan - her appt was scheduled - she showed up and the onco did not. Her appt was rescheduled and she died prior to it.

Sponge:
Sure - and I have family in Canada who would happily change their system or come here. What is your point?

My point was that i have been online for ten years and now i have finally found a Canadian who would rather have our health care system instead of theirs. Why is ur family in such a minority?

 

[The Sponge]

Hey Mags, what about it?

Chad's right. Vitter was just one of 31 co-sponsors, so why are you singling him out as a co-author of the bill when in fact he was not?

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s111-1232

Furthermore, that bill never got beyond Committee. So what proof do you have that Obama "would not allow the Dems to pass it"? :shrug:

My guess is the bill stalled in Committee because the debate over the healthcare reform was in full progress when the bill was introduced.

The whole post of his was complete bullshit. Guys like Mags have no filter. They hear it on Fox and they think it is fact.

 

[ssd]

Here are some facts:

http://thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/2009/12/facts-on-comparison-of-us-canadian-and.html

Percentage of men and women who survived a cancer five years after diagnosis: U.S. 65 percent, Eng-land 46 percent, Canada 42 percent.

Percentage of patients diagnosed with diabetes who received treatment within six months: U.S. 93 percent, England 15 percent, Canada 43 percent.

Percentage of seniors needing hip replacement who received it within six months: U.S. 90 percent, England 15 percent, Canada 43 percent.

Percentage referred to a medical specialist who see one within one month: U.S. 77 percent, England 40 percent, Canada 43 percent.

Number of MRI scanners (a prime diagnostic tool) per million people: U.S. 71, England 14, Canada 18.

Percentage of seniors (65 and older) with low income who say they are in ?excellent health?: U.S. 12 percent, England 2 percent, Canada 6 percent.

When you look at the WHO rankings for healthcare - you have to figure out how they grade it. Here it is:

1. Health Level: 25%
2. Health Distribution: 25%
3. Responsiveness: 12.5%
4. Responsiveness Distribution: 12.5%
5. Financial Fairness: 25%

I guess it all comes down to how you value responsiveness. I value it highly, at least moreso than the WHO.

Here's another pretty good article:
http://www.hoover.org/publications/hoover-digest/article/5589

And his bio:
http://www.hoover.org/fellows/10107


If you read my earlier post, I am paying out the nose for health care. I do not begrudge doctors what they earn but am pretty ripped at the insurance companies.
I think the health care that you receive in the US is the best in the world. I'm not happy with the price but I am confident that I am receiving good care.

I do not think that the Affordable Health Care Act will bring down the cost of healthcare in the US. I do not see how adding 30 million+ people to governmental subsidies will effectively control costs. Add to that the fact that all of those uninsured people who showed up in ER's, etc across the nation, who were treated and failed to pay - all those claims that the hospitals had to eat and write off, now all those claims will be paid by the US Gov't. So, I do not think this act will actually bring down costs in the US healthcare system.
And, I do not know what will. Perhaps getting some of the atty's out of the system would help - in that case, getting some of them out of politics would probably help as well.

 

[Duff Miver]

Here are some facts:

Well, thanks for putting up some "facts" to back your claim. The problem is that those claims aren't factual at all. You will note there are no references given for the source of those so-called facts. What you put up is simply one more unqualified internet blogger, publishing what he likes, and without intellectual honesty. Deroy Murdock? You've got to be kidding.

I did cross-check British cancer survival rates from a real source, The Lancet, and the numbers Murdock put up are wildly incorrect. Beyond that, I'm not going to do your homework for you.

As far as the Hoover Institute, again, wild claims from a famously right-wing group, presented with no references or documentation at all. If Scott W. Atlas were impartial, he would be publishing on a peer-reviewed journal under the auspices of Stanford, not some political think tank.

I have been thinking you're a pretty smart guy. I may have to reconsider that opinion.

Why don't you try again, but this time, ignore bloggers and political organizations and use real, qualified medical sources. You can find solid, verifiable information from The Lancet, JAMA, NEJM, and many of the academic medical researchers at major universities.

Here, I'll get you started with a real, fact-based study of cancer survival, which was conducted by impartial expert oncologists and biostaticians, and published in a peer-reviewed journal.

Click the link, then click on the PDF file.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(08)70179-7/abstract

 

[ssd]

From your listed study Muff,

To compensate for wide international differences in general population (background) mortality by age, sex, country, region, calendar period, and (in the USA) ethnic origin, we estimated relative survival, the ratio of survival noted in the patients with cancer, and the survival that would have been expected had they been subject only to the background mortality rates. 2800 life tables were constructed. Survival estimates were also adjusted for differences in the age structure of populations of patients with cancer.

Hmmm - sounds factual. I wonder is the bank will take my estimate as to how much money is in my account.


As for Atlas - yes, he is a conservative - does that disqualify him from being an expert on the subject. Are the only experts on this subject people who think as you do?

His bio lists this:
Research interests: U.S. health care system, health care systems of emerging nations, use of advanced medical technology

Here are some the references that Atlas lists for some of his work:

[8] "Hospital Waiting Times and List Statistics," Department of Health, England. Available at http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publication...?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=186979&Rendition=Web.

[3] Oliver Schoffski (University of Erlangen-Nuremberg), "Diffusion of Medicines in Europe," European Federation of Pharmaceutical Industries and Associations, 2002. Available at http://www.amchampc.org/showFile.asp?FID=126. See also Michael Tanner, "The Grass is Not Always Greener: A Look at National Health Care Systems around the World," Cato Institute, Policy Analysis No. 613, March 18, 2008. Available at http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9272.

[2] U.S. Cancer Statistics, National Program of Cancer Registries, U.S. Centers for Disease Control; Canadian Cancer Society/National Cancer Institute of Canada; also see June O'Neill and Dave M. O'Neill, "Health Status, Health Care and Inequality: Canada vs. the U.S.," National Bureau of Economic Research, Working Paper No. 13429, September 2007. Available at http://www.nber.org/papers/w13429.

Concord Working Group, "Cancer survival in five continents: a worldwide population-based study,.S. abe at responsible for theountries, in s chnologies, " Lancet Oncology, Vol. 9, No. 8, August 2008, pages 730 - 756; Arduino Verdecchia et al., "Recent Cancer Survival in Europe: A 2000-02 Period Analysis of EUROCARE-4 Data," Lancet Oncology, Vol. 8, No. 9, September 2007, pages 784 - 796.

OECD Health Data 2008, Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. Available at http://www.oecd.org/document/30/0,3343,en_2649_34631_12968734_1_1_1_37407,00.html.

I am imagine all these are conservative, right wing groups as well except he did use something from the Lancet....hmmmmm.

I am a smart guy - I don't need your validation or refutation of it. I am extremely well read on both liberal and conservative point of views - I don't think either side has it all right and that is where people like you and Mags have a problem - you can only spit the vitriol and hate that supports your opinion and are so blinded by the hate of the other opinion that you won't acknowledge any validity other than your own truth.

People like you get boring really quick.

Sponge:

Maybe you should hang out with some people who do not always think the same way you do about everything. I know what she (and we) went through - yeah - she was probably going to die anyway - I understand that - but they way it happened was complete bullshit and there are some Canadians - I do not know how many - but some that I personally know who would trade their system for the US system.

Flame me or whatever - i'm done on this topic -
IT IS MY OPINION THAT THE US HEALTH CARE SYSTEM OFFERS THE BEST HEALTH CARE MONEY CAN BUY REGARDLESS AS TO WHO IS PAYING FOR IT, PUBLIC OR PRIVATE.

 

[The Sponge]

.

Sponge:

Maybe you should hang out with some people who do not always think the same way you do about everything. I know what she (and we) went through - yeah - she was probably going to die anyway - I understand that - but they way it happened was complete bullshit and there are some Canadians - I do not know how many - but some that I personally know who would trade their system for the US system.

.

Watching all ur alleged facts get open up like a small peanut makes me wonder if u ever get any news from any other type of news source that isn't slanted right. That is the standard cry of the right. "we have the best healthcare in the world". Yeah we have the best of everything according to them. It is easy to say that all the time but to really look into it always seems to find a different outcome. It is a wonderful talking point to gullible clowns who don't know any better and run with it. Next i guess we will hear "if u don't like it leave" :0002

 

[Duff Miver]

As for Atlas - yes, he is a conservative - does that disqualify him from being an expert on the subject.

His selection of data to prove a preselected conclusion makes him intellectually dishonest.

Biased expert is a contradiction in terms, Mr. Smart Guy.

 

[Skulnik]

The whole post of his was complete bullshit. Guys like Mags have no filter. They hear it on Fox and they think it is fact.

Good old Sponge, he gets his news from MSNBC.


:facepalm:

 

[The Sponge]

Good old Sponge, he gets his news from MSNBC.


:facepalm:

Skully today i listen to about an hour of right-wing radio. The topic was all about Obama leaving the oil companies alone. The talk show host said "can't anyone make a profit nowadays" :mj07: :mj07: :mj07: You got to love them. By the way have u ever seen this thread? http://www.madjacksports.com/forum/showthread.php?t=431283&highlight=fox+makes+you+stupid

 

[StevieD]

My portion of Health Insurance is over $300 a month and I pay 25%. My employer pays the other $900 plus. Per month. Add to that the copays. We now co-pay for Exrays, MRI's, just about everything. $250 per person deductable per year. I am having a procedure, not even surgery, done tomorrow. I have $150 for the OR, $100 for exrays, $100 for blood tests, $100 for ctscan, countless specialist co-pays to discuss all the scans.
Who the Hell can afford this? And I have one of the best plans offered. I thimnk Obama should of attacked the costs first.