Was the war worth it.

[Eddie Haskell]

Bobby, I m disappointed, I thought we were friends. Those numbers are civilian dead and wounded. I think we all know that they will be much higher.

What about the military dead and wounded. No doubt when all is said and done, the numbers will be in six figures. I dont know where your numbers come from but if accurate, do you attribute these deaths to Hussein?

If accurate, I'm sure we have similar ratios in other countries (Rumania comes to mind). Wonder what the numbers will be on the Battle for Bucharest. Seems like we come back to the oil issue.

My point is that there are many Husseins in the world. We seem to go after only those wherein we have an economic, financial or military interest. Based on that premise, the rationalization that this is some kinda humanitarian endeavour fails to hold water.

Your point about championing the rights of the individual no matter how much it hurts society is a comment I would not have expected from you. Championing the rights of the individual is key to a functioning free society. Think about it.

Eddie

 

[SixFive]

U still won't say who u voted for, Eddie. Just more bashing and hillbilly generalizations of me. Fine, you don't like the system, what are you doing about it? Bitching at Madjacks.com in the general forum; anything else?? What system should we model? What country has one that is better that we could copy and model? Do you even vote?

Of all your generalizations and descriptions of me, the only accurate one every once in a while would be the 5 day growth of beard. I hate to shave.

 

[S-Love]

Hey Haskell, King of the Pussies- why don't make sure that the next ambulance you chase makes it all the way to Canada, so you can stop at Chretien's house and give each other a reach-around.

 

[BobbyBlueChip]

Eddie,

We are friends. I just don?t agree with your horror over the deaths of some civilians nor your disdain for those who threaten on a message board while you do nothing but provoke the action. Doesn?t mean we can?t be friends.

All I?m saying is our inaction in Iraq wouldn?t have saved anybody. Others would have killed in their place or they would have killed on their own. Only those who are temperate and weak have a chance for a long life in that country. Even if liberation isn?t the real reason that we?re there, it doesn?t make Iraq any less free (eventually).

Individual rights are great as long as they don?t stampede on the rights of others. While we took away the right to life ( a pretty big right) from some civilians, doing nothing would have impeded others rights to live 1,000-fold. Not a big fan of Bush, but I think he has performed well in this role.

 

[djv]

DTB I hate to disagree with you but. Homeless and welfare started right after the civil war. It was both in the North and South. And they were of all colors. This is not something that just got started with Reagan as many like to say. Yes homeless doubled under his 8 Years. But much of that was caused my many mental hospitals shuting folks out or just closing there doors. They of course blamed high health care cost. They went on to blame Reagan for not giveing more help in there direction. I guess a little of both could be true.
Folks Why we still in Iraq with so many men? Why not do a 3/4 pull out like we did in Afgan? I still have not figured out why we did not finish one before we started another.

 

[FlashInVegas]

the truth...

the truth...

the death toll (aka collateral damage) was never a consideration when you take into account who was responsible for this mess. think back about 35 years ago...we had a president who was controlled by a heartless political assassin. of course im speaking of the inability of Dick Nixon's inability to make a decision without the approval of Henry Kissinger.

guess who was brought in by Dubya soon after the 9/11 attacks???? hmmm, the same guy who indescriminately murdered thousands in Cambodia, East Timor, and Chile. this is the same guy who sabotaged the 1968 peace talks between north and south korea so that tricky dick could get the credit. as a result of this stupidity, thousands upon thousands of cambodians and US soldiers lost their lives. the actions in East Timor and Chile are as bad if not worse examples of criminal behavior

how can a man with such a dispicable record be expected to do anything that is remotely considered humanitarian? but never the less, Dubya has given him the duty of cleaning up the mess post 9/11. the icing on the cake has to be the appointment of one of Kissinger's cronies to prop up a functional government in Iraq. what a joke. these guys think its ok to kill in the name of capitalism...

this tax cut battle is astounding, an administration that is going to be directly responsible for the worst deficit/debt in our history is attempting to cut what little revenues the government has...huh??? is that fuzzy math?

another lovely example of the current administrations "morality and dignity": William Bennett and his gambling issues...what a bunch of hypocrites.

god help us all...Ralph Nader, where are you??? we need a man with a conscience.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Mr Ed uh I mean Eddie.
I don't think you will ever find in any post any reference to me begrudging anyone of a BJ and I could care less if he fired one up and inhaled in college or got busted with DUI. I also have no doubt which of the two have the higher intelligence but death row is filled with geniuses.
My problem is with someone who shakes his finger at the US and lies,lies under oath,bungles military moves and lets enemy drag or soilders through the street and set them on fire and does nothing.I have problems with one who pardons people on 10 most wanted list for a buck.
If Bush does any of the above I will be on his ass just as hard if not worse because I will be angry that he fooled me, can't say the same about Clinton.Knew the proof would be in the pudding in time.
On the war I think we are much better off putting a little fear in the enemy rather than be made the laughing stock of the world as we were prior. I don't think we made any advancements on Western values which is one of the East primary bitches.
---and a little bout my bud 6-5 .Nope not an ounce of fat on him.
Owns nice brick home in one of our better sub divisions,has 2 modest autos a lovely wife, a daughter and son who always say please and thank you,a cat and dog and while both work he always finds the time to go overseas the past years and put in a week or 2 helping the unfortunate in his field of medical expertise,pro bono I might add.You see Ed,he is a giver not a taker,he contributes to society, something you might not understand--and I for one am damn proud to call him my friend and he, Eddie, is one I choose to walk with.

 

[Eddie Haskell]

Please hum America the Beautiful while reading the preceeding reply by Dogs that Bark. I'm all choked up.

To my misfortune, I have spent some time in the Commonwealth of Kentucky. You and your butt buddy typify many who I have met from your worthless state.

Bottom of the rung in education, one of the top producers of tobacco in the country. horse racing mecca of the oountry and, oh yeah, college basketball. Anything else come out of that toxic waste dump you call a state.

Great justice system, especially around Corbin and eastern Kentucky. Hell I know Lexington lawyers who are afraid to go to those parts. I find many Kentuckians to have the stubborn, black and white mentalities displayed by you and your butt buddy. Flush your tobacco gambling state down the toilet. (not to be too moralistic but its an argument)

"Putting a little fear in our enemies..." I'll bet you like the phrase "collateral damage" instead of "dead Iraqi civilians, many of whom were women and children". I hope you enjoyed Bush's flexing his muscles and killing people as much as Freeze enjoys his lower gas prices.

Your type of thinking is what is killing this country. You see doggie, you are the taker. You are the bully on the beach kicking sand in the face of the skinny kid. You supported this invasion. Why.....wmd? Where? Now let the rationalizations flow. Hypocrite!!!

I cant believe I'm discussing this issue with billy (2). I'll meet your fat ass at Ellis also. Bring your shoe.

Ed

 

[djv]

Im to old to fight anymore. My size protects me as long as I hide my age. I can be invited to be a guest Referee.
One quick question I still have. Yes it was ok to wake the world up we were not going got take any crap. But I thought that's what Afghanistan was all about. Why we have to do it a second time?

 

[StevieD]

Pretty good question DJV.

 

[dr. freeze]

Im to old to fight anymore. My size protects me as long as I hide my age. I can be invited to be a guest Referee.
One quick question I still have. Yes it was ok to wake the world up we were not going got take any crap. But I thought that's what Afghanistan was all about. Why we have to do it a second time?

easy answer...Saddam didn't get that message

some people take a little longer to learn

 

[djv]

But Doc that's just what im saying. He did nothing differant the last 25 years. Some of those we were standing on his side. I just dont see what he had to bother us with. And if it's about freeing people. Well then were to late for about One Million of them. Why we wait all these years. It just makes no sence. And other countries have same thing going on but were not doing a dam thing. Our policy seems to be whatever straw get drawn next.

 

[Turfgrass]

WHY DO WE HAVE TO GO OVER THIS TIME AND TIME AGAIN?

Well, the answer to that question is clear. We have to go over this time after time because there are certain people out there, we?ll call them ?liberals,? who are still in a state of despair and shock over President Bush?s successful removal of Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and the liberation of the Iraqi people.

Day after day we read new stories, columns and various opinion pieces trumpeting Bush?s failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. This presumably means that the entire Iraqi effort was illegitimate and, perhaps, that Bush out to be defeated in 2004, at best, or impeached, at worst for his failure.

OK, folks. One more time .. by the numbers ?

1) Both the UN and the United States had knowledge of Saddam?s WMDs.

2)The UN ordered Saddam to destroy his WMDs.

3)Saddam agreed to destroy his WMDs.

4)Saddam agreed to provide evidence of the destruction of his WMDs

5)Before destroying his WMDs Saddam kicked the UN inspectors out of Iraq.

6)After Saddam kicked out the inspectors there was evidence that he began a program to hide his WMDs

7)Saddam now claims that he destroyed his WMDs, after he kicked out the weapons inspectors.

8)Saddam has never failed any evidence that he destroyed the WMDs.

9)Three UN resolutions, Numbers 678, 687 and 1441 authorize either the UN or any member state to use force against Saddam Hussein if he fails to abide by his agreements to destroy his WMDs, and to document that destruction.

10)The United States, Great Britain, Australia, Spain and about 38 other nations banded together to act against Saddam in compliance with those three UN resolutions.

It?s just that easy. Now its time to stop whining about why we did it. It's over, done, kaput.

 

[StevieD]

Sorry to disagree with you Turf but even Mr. Bush doesn't say it's over. The easy part was the so called war. We are now in the hard part.

 

[TheShrimp]

Furthermore, Turfgrass, if it's all so easy to justify with WMD, then why was it called "Operation Iraqi Freedom" instead of "Operation Option to use force against Saddam for defying the UN"?

Also, if these UN resolutions are so important to our being there, why have you put forth several posts concerning the UN's uselessness AND why didn't the UN vote to act militarily over the defying of their own policies?

as far as the "liberation of the iraqi people", as Judge Judy would say, "don't piss in my ear and tell me its raining." That's some demonstration of freedom over there. Haliburton running their oil wells, US troops stationed in their kid's schools and troops firing on demonstrators for throwing a shoe at a tank. Religious leaders killing and getting killed in efforts to set up IRAN II...Kurds forcing Muslim families out of their houses at gun point. That's some nice freedom.

 

[kosar]

"We have to go over this time after time because there are certain people out there, we?ll call them ?liberals,? who are still in a state of despair and shock over President Bush?s successful removal of Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and the liberation of the Iraqi people."


This is a perfect example of how a certain subset, we'll call them 'hawks and when it suits our needs pretend humanitarians' see this invasion with tunnel-vision. This subset sees a quick victory as a validation of said invasion.

The thing is that nobody in their right mind thought that the 'war' would develop any differently. Very few, no matter their political bent, are shocked. However, this subset has continually ignored the need for some sort of viable post-war plan, seeing only the incredible military of the USA demolishing a horribly weak one. That isn't a plan.

We are currently seeing the result of having no workable end-game, and as well the incoherent post-war policy being manifested in large part because of the great divide within our own government on how to proceed. We are the experts on democracy, yet even we don't know how to do this. But these same people are trying to sell to the American people that the Iraqi's, with no history of or sense of democracy, will be able to sustain just that. What kind of sense does *that* make? Some subsets buy into it though, hook, line and sinker.

Even more disturbing, some people consider this thing 'over'.

 

[Turfgrass]

Sorry to disagree with you Turf but even Mr. Bush doesn't say it's over. The easy part was the so called war. We are now in the hard part.

Yes the "war" is over. That is what I was referring to. I thought I was being clear about that, I guess I wasn't. I'm sorry if I confused you.

 

[Turfgrass]

Furthermore, Turfgrass, if it's all so easy to justify with WMD, then why was it called "Operation Iraqi Freedom" instead of "Operation Option to use force against Saddam for defying the UN"?

Also, if these UN resolutions are so important to our being there, why have you put forth several posts concerning the UN's uselessness AND why didn't the UN vote to act militarily over the defying of their own policies?

as far as the "liberation of the iraqi people", as Judge Judy would say, "don't piss in my ear and tell me its raining." That's some demonstration of freedom over there. Haliburton running their oil wells, US troops stationed in their kid's schools and troops firing on demonstrators for throwing a shoe at a tank. Religious leaders killing and getting killed in efforts to set up IRAN II...Kurds forcing Muslim families out of their houses at gun point. That's some nice freedom.

I don't know why they called it "Operation Iraqi Freedom". TV tag line as far as I know. They didn't ask me what I wanted to call it.

UN resolutions are useless, unless you back them up: therefore the UN is useless as far as I can tell. But thanks for noticing how I post. But I'm sure YOU want the UN to be in charge of the US foreign policy.

As far as freedom goes: everybody has to start somewhere. I'm sure our guys and gals are doing the best they can over there considering the circumstances. Now its time to move on, get over it, what's done is done.

 

[StevieD]

it is okay Turf even Mr. Bush has confused me at times! becacuse I thought he said it wasn't over yet.

 

[Turfgrass]

it is okay Turf even Mr. Bush has confused me at times! becacuse I thought he said it wasn't over yet.

You did see that I had war in quotation marks, right?