What Tax Break.

taoist

The Sage
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1986

1986

In 1986 we had evolved to a point where we had relatively high tax rates, marginal rates, but we had certain kinds of investment that were particularly favored so that if you made investments in those kinds of activities, you ended up paying at a much lower effective rate. So if you think about the base this way, say our gross national product (total income) is $50 trillion and if you said we need to raise a certain amount of money - say $2 trillion ? and you said our total gross product is $50 trillion and you need $2 trillion, 4% will do it, right? Say we?ll tax all income at 4% and get our $2 trillion and be done and we?re in good shape. But of course that would be a "true" flat tax...even on the kid who mows your yard and you pay him $50 and he?s got to pay 4% and you say that?s not fair...little johnny shouldn't have to pay. So we?re going to exempt low income folks who are below the poverty line and we?re not going to tax them.... So immediately we go from $50 trillion to $40 trillion and now in order to raise the same amount of money, we have to charge 5% across the board...but it doesn?t stop there. We?re going to allow deductions for things like charitable contributions, tax-exempt interest, home mortgage interest...you name it. What I started with was my tax base, which was the total income. Now I?m taking stuff off of it.... I?m going to take off home mortgage interest. I?m going to give a special break for capital gains and tax that at a lower rate. Accelerated depreciation for equipment because that?s what keeps the economy running. I?m not going to tax pension contributions or employer-paid medical insurance ? that?s part of the income that we all have but the employer says instead of you paying for your own healthcare, I?ll pay for the healthcare. If you had to pay for it, I would have to pay you money, you?d have to pay tax on it. This way, you don?t have to pay tax on it so the question is, would you rather get $1,000 raise or would you rather have me pay your healthcare which is costing you $1,000. I?d say pay my healthcare because I?ve got to pay tax on the raise, but I don?t have to pay tax on healthcare because it is exempt. I?m going to get a deduction for state and local taxes, property taxes and income tax. See where we?re headed? Eventually, we?re down to about $8 trillion because of all of the exemptions, deductions and special rates and investment incentives and we still have to raise $2 trillion. So now our rate has to be 25% of what is left in order to be able to raise the funds that we need...a big, huge chunk of what was coming out of the base back prior to 1986 was depreciation, which is a non-cash deduction. Remember the S&L's?

Here's the way it went...with some nice round numbers. I take $100,000 and go out and put it as a down payment on an apartment building. The building cost $1 million. The rent generated by the apartment building is $100,000 annually. The $900,000 that I borrowed at 10% interest cost me $90,000. So the other expenses of operating the apartment building cost $10,000 so I?m breaking even and no making any income.... So, $100,000 cash out of pocket, but no return on my money. Why would anyone do that, you ask? Now if the government says we?re going to give you a deduction for the depreciation on the apartment building and that?s going to be 10% on what you paid for the building, then the first year I take a deduction of $100,000. So I took $100,000 and invested it in the building and I get $100,000 deduction on my tax return and if my marginal tax rate is 50%, then that $100,000 deduction, assuming I?m making $1 million a year practicing medicine and I?m paying 50% of that in tax, but I?m now going to get a deduction for $100,000, which means I make $50,000 after tax on my $100,000 investment. For the first year, that?s a 50% return even though I?m breaking even in cash. The second year I get another 10% deduction for depreciation. So I make $50,000 the second year. What has happened is I?ve only owned this thing two years, invested $100,000 cash, second year, I?ve got all of my money back. It only gets better, right? And I?m still not making any money on the apartments because the rent is going to pay the interest and expenses and all of that is a wash.... So, what happens is, after 10 years of that at 10% a year, I?ve run out of depreciation, but out of my $100,000 investment, I?ve got $500,000 back in taxes. Now the problem is with my investment, I?m no longer going to get a deduction and because the depreciation reduced my cost basis in the building, if I sell the building, I?ve got $100,000 of income. The good news is it is pre-1986. The good news is even though I?ve got $100,000 in income, it is capital gains. So I get taxed at a much lower rate. I?m not too broken up about the fact that I have this building that let?s say is still only worth $1 million, but my cost basis is zero because I depreciated it. So when I sell it for $1 million, I have $1 million of capital gain. I?m going to pay tax on that at 25% rate because I get a 50% capital gains deduction. So I?m going to owe $250,000 in taxes, which isn?t too shabby considering that I?ve already saved $500,000 in taxes up front. But there is one real kind of serious problem and that is when I sell it for $1 million, I have to have $900,000 to pay the mortgage back so I?m only going to get $100,000. But not to worry.... What I need is a tax deduction to offset the $1 million in capital gains.... What I need now is a $10 million apartment building because if I can buy a $10 million building, pay 10% depreciation, I get a $1 million deduction, and then I don?t have to pay the $250,000. So what happens is this is like a pyramid. I just keep buying bigger, more expensive, unproductive real property. In 1986, that was causing a tremendous shrinkage in the tax base which meant that even though the nominal rate was 50% or more, the actual effective rate of tax was much lower for higher income folks for whom it made sense to engage in this kind of tax plan.

So in 1986, the compromise that was struck was the Liberals and the Conservatives got together and said.... We need to expand the tax base and we need to cut these rates...they?ve gotten way too high...and in the course of less than a 48-hour period, like on the back of an envelope, they struck a deal that said we will virtually shut down this depreciation deduction business entirely, which will substantially expand the tax base and will knock the rates down to a maximum of 28% and everybody was happy except, of course, the folks that were in the middle of one of these deals and their lenders!!! Probably the most unhappy people were the lenders who had loaned the money!!! A lot were savings and loans associations and you all know that story. The people that owned property said I don?t want to pay $10 million for anything.... As long as I could take the depreciation, things were fine and I didn't care that the property didn't generate any income because of the tax deduction, but when I lost the ability to take depreciation deduction, I started to care about how much income it generates. Then, when looking at the prices of property with a new point of view, what I would really be paying for the property plummeted and the $10 million mortgage went back to the lender...and so went the S&L's. So that was what happened in 1986.... Broaden the base, lower the rate. ;)
 
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taoist

The Sage
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...the flat tax....

...the flat tax....

But let me say this about the flat tax, because that really is kind of where we were in this discussion before I decided to give everyone a free history lesson in federal tax.... When you?re talking about this base broadening business, the first issue is do you tax EVERYONE (a true flat tax) or do you exempt people on the low end? The answer is yes, obviously you have to exempt people below the poverty line.... You can?t tax somebody who is supporting a family of four on minimum wage at the same rate you tax Steve Forbes and say that that is equitable or fair because they?re both paying the same rate. So you?re going to exempt people at the low end of the scale and as soon as you do that, it isn?t really a flat tax because you can?t start here and say if you make $12,000 you pay zero tax, if you make $13,000, then you have to pay 10% on everything. Because what happens the guy who makes $12,000 pays none and the guy who makes $13,000 pays $1300. And the guy who pays $1300 ends up worse off than the guy who only makes $12,000. So, if you exempt the first whatever of income, you?ve already got a graduated tax structure and not a "flat tax."

So you can?t have a true flat rate!!! So you say we?ll exempt everybody below $30,000 ? everybody gets a standard deduction at $30,000 and then we charge a flat rate above that.... Yeah, that?ll work.... The problem is remember how much the people who report an income over $100,000 paid in taxes? Remember that 7.5% of the population (only folks declaring over $100,000) pays 62% of the tax.... If you have a flat rate you will not get 62% of the revenue from those people.... It simply can?t happen!!! So what happens with the flat rate is, if you?re going to keep the revenue the same, somebody has to pay a lot more than they are currently paying and it?s not going to be the people down here at the bottom because we?ve exempted them...and it?s not going to be the people up here who are paying at a current marginal effective rate of somewhere between 30-40%, right? Why? Because our flat rate is going to be lower than the highest marginal rate and higher than the lowest marginal rate...a "flat tax" squeezes the middle class of wage earners. If the tax rate is say...17-25%, then the folks in the middle class are going to pay a hell of a lot more tax than they do now!!! THAT I will guarantee you...but it?s a flat tax!!! I'm sure that you could get a lot of people to vote for it.... I suspect it would sort of be like 1981-82 where we voted for it and then we said "Holy Shit!!! This isn?t exactly the way we planned for it to come out...." (Not to mention all of the current credits and deductions that they would lose in the process....) Like I said earlier...a flat tax will never work unless you're willing to let the middle class in this country carry an even heavier burden than they currently do.

The simply solution is to cut spending, but once again, that's not the point.... That argument doesn't hold water if you're arguing for a flat tax because all of us can agree that we need to reduce the size of the whole pie.... (i.e. we need to reduce spending)So let's say that we've got a smaller pie, the question now becomes how do we divide it up? Who's going to pay what? Hey, I got an idea...let's make the middle class carry most of the tax burden in this country!!! Yeah, that sounds like a great idea!!! A flat tax simply doesn't work guys, but hey, what do I know? :shrug:
 
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GENO

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Guys it is taxing to read all of this stuff and IF you have ever seen some of my posts you know they are long. Did you guys pick any winners today? Do you spend this much time capping ? How many in here are typing at work ?

From my view point this country is in trouble with all the jobs going overseas. I have said this in here before, I have a friend who does foreclosure appraisals here in this county he is busier than ever. Tons of good paying jobs hitting the skids in Franklin Co. Buckeye Steel, Luccent, KMart, 2 car dealers in the area etc etc. :(
 

ferdville

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I am glad that I saved this from long ago. Pretty pertinent to topic even though you might have seen it before. And by the way, what exactly was the tax amount that the British want to impose that caused the Tea Party? ......................................1%

>
>>
>>Subject: Understanding Tax Cuts
>>
>>Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every
>>day, ten people go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100.
>>If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something
>>like this.
>>
>>The first four people -- the poorest -- would pay nothing; the fifth
>>would pay $1, the sixth would pay $3, the seventh $7, the eighth $12,
>>the ninth $18,and the tenth person -- the richest -- would pay $59.
>>
>>That's what they decided to do. The ten people ate dinner in the
>>restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement
>>-- until one day, the owner threw them a curve (in tax language : a tax
>>cut).
>>
>>"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce
>>the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost
>>$80.00.
>>
>>The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes.
>>
>>So the first four people were unaffected. They would still eat for free.
>>But what about the other six -- the paying customers? How could they
>>divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get a "fair share?"
>>
>>The six people realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they
>>subtracted that from everybody's share, Then the fifth and the sixth
>>person would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant
>>owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each person's bill by
>>roughly the same amount,and he proceeded to work out the amounts each
>>should pay.
>>
>>And so the fifth person paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the
>>seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the
>>tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59. Each of the six
>>was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for
>>free.
>>
>>But once outside the restaurant, the people began to compare their
>>savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth
>>person, but pointing to the tenth said, " but that person got $7!".
>>"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth person, "I only saved a
>>dollar, too, ........ it's unfair that he got seven times more than
>>me!". That's true!" shouted the seventh person, why should he get $7
>>back when I got only $2?" The wealthy get all the breaks!". Wait a
>>minute," yelled the first four people in unison, "We didn't get anything
>>at all. The system exploits the poor!" The nine people surrounded the
>>tenth and beat him up.
>>
>>The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and
>>ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered,
>>a little late what was very important. They were FIFTY-TWO DOLLARS short
>>of paying the bill! Imagine that!
>>
>>And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors, is how
>>the tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most
>>benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being
>>wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore.
>>
>>Where would that leave the rest?
>>
>>Unfortunately, most taxing authorities anywhere cannot seem to grasp
>>this rather straight- forward logic!
>>
>>T. Davies
>>Professor of Accounting &Chair,
>>Division of Accounting and Business Law
>>The University of South Dakota
>>School of Business
>>414 E. Clark Street
>>Vermillion, SD 57069
>>Phone: 605-677-5230
>>Fax: 605-677-5427
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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I think that will end this discussion Ferdville.Good post.
Thought DVJ hit home also bout curbing sending our tax dollars to other countriesalso.

Maybe a sales tax is the answer. You buy big toys you pay you buy little toys you get a break.Might even have tad extra tax on items imported to help growth here.

As far as the dividend thing. I like anything that rewards responsible people and encourages them to save. I don't buy that this break only effects the highrollers but don't have any #'s to back it up.From personal observation (and I don't what his earnings are) The UPS guy that stops at the office has one of the strongest stock portfolio's I know because he systemattically saves,I also know a business owner that rents office space from us that makes a bunch but who's "net" worth is far less than the UPS guy's. I think people such as the UPS guy should be rewarded for being resonsible and prudent and let those that run up huge credit card debt by spending more than they make also be responsible for their actions.

----And as far as unemployment figures I had to just shake my head over (forgot her name but not face) comments of CA political figure. She is on CNN couple weeks back saying how immigrants from south of border(both legal and illegal) were such an assett to our economy because they do jobs no one in US wants to do, yet 3 days ago is on CNN again bitching about unemployment rate.---go figure I wish there would be able to somehow distinguish figures for those drawing unemployment and those seeking employment.
To give you example of mindset of people.
The place you sign up for benefits is "The employment office" yet 9 out of 10 will tell you it's "the unemployment office" Why do you think that is? Think about it;)
 

djv

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There may be another way to get more tax dollars. We keep saying some dont pay any taxes at all. That is true on the top end and the low end.
So lets bring up minium wage to 8 bucks. If you go back to 1960 and add inflation it should be about 8.70 anyway. So 8 bucks and now get tax money from these folks who payed none.
Step two take all smart accountents and lawyers away from the top end guys and there plenty of them two. Have them sit down at there kitchen table do there taxes and pay like they should.
Both might help.
And yes DTB reward companies very well for keeping and growing jobs here. And the ones that dont help get no tax breaks. Like GE last year huge company. Does everyone undestand how much tax they paid. Very little if any. We need those loop holes closed. Even Bush said loop holes cost us, estimate 10 to 20 billioin a
year.
 

Iowa Child

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Ferdville thanks so much for posting that story. I'll use that often. Thanks again. :)
 

djv

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Ferdville the answer to your story could be a national sales tax.
 

ferdville

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djv a national sales tax. And, like you, would love to stop giving billions of dollars to countries that hate our guts. We have plenty of people here that we can used the money on. For those of you that don't live in California, Texas, Florida, etc. - we are spending billions on illegal aliens, too. But that's a whole other story!
 

taoist

The Sage
Forum Member
...wouldn't want to stir up any chit, as we all know i'm a peaceful man, but if we had a national sales tax, would you tax services? ...all services? ...how about internet services? :shrug:

...we have (in Tennessee) the highest sales tax in the union...no state income tax, but the highest sales tax or in the top 3 in the union.... it ain't pretty, fellas. :nooo:
 

TIME TO MAKE $$$

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TAX LAW class is now in session....

I am not able to add much more that what has been said here as your system is very much different than what I have to deal with up here.

But I will say this, taxes are up to 15% in most provinces up here
:mad:

Taoist, after reading your posts I thought you were my Prof..

:D
 

JOSHNAUDI

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Thanks for the history Taoist and the time it took to post it.

Also enjoyed the story Ferdville, although I heard after the 10th guy got beat up, he stopped going out to dinner since he could afford to hire a gourmet chef.

There are so many different directions that this thread could go, but the fact that it has received so many passionate replies shows that there is a problem today. We have not set any goals, as a country, to try and achieve.

We're broke down here in Texas. In fact in the Metro section of the Austin Amer. Stmn today, the headline was that the school district was Urged to cut jobs. God forbid MY tax money go to the teachers of my future children.

Freeze, There is no bigger fan of the free market system than I. Yet, you don't want to reward this great nation for allowing (and continuing) the opportunity for free enterprise. I hope one day I have to pay a Million dollars in taxes. I bet it beats the hell out of living in the 15% tax group. Also, remember that the nation is split into different views from yours, as documented with the popular vote of the 2000 Presidential election. They may not have won the vote (Pending a recount in Dade County) but their ideas and beliefs should at least be considered and tended to as they are also citizens of this great nation.

The way I see it... The Gov't is trying to fix, what is obviously a problem, without first identifying the problem. Again if we could prioritize what is important to the people of The United States and then try and solve it, it would make the task easier.

Not calling you out Doc, I chose to reply to your comments because your views are easily understood, well written, and of the opposite opinion of myself.
 

djv

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Joshnadui your point of differant opinions is a very good one. We have here I believe some very smart folks. Be them young middle age or older as myself. Not sure on me how smart but I try. We have general workers, small businesss men, those who work for large & small companies. The point im making even with the passion some may have. You look at this thread and some of the ideas and remarks presents. This reminds you of how are government is to work. Good soild depate. At times I see how we discuss things here and believe we could come up with solotions better then some of our elected officials. And note we no real hard core bashing. Jack did not have to locked it down. Just good hard discussion. I enjoyed it and I hope many of you did to.

A toast to all:toast:
 

TIME TO MAKE $$$

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I tried staying out of it but I just couldn't resist. Now please keep in mind that I am a:canada1 resident so I may not have all my facts straight, but I will add insight from what I know, please correct me if I am wrong.

Many people would like you to believe that flat tax is so named because it will flatten your finances. That at the least is the intended conclusion. By eliminating personal deductions like mortgagee interest payments, the study claims, the flat tax
would reduce housing values in the US by upwards of 10 percent. The study's methodology is shaky at best, and the jury on housing values is still out. Despite the forces allied against the flat tax, tax reform has grown steadily because the current tax system is so unpopular and the alternatives promise so much. But in addition to the possibility of lower housing values, the flat tax poses several other serious problems too easily dismissed by its advocates. Businesses may be the flat tax's second biggest obstacle. By reducing the cost of compliance with the tax laws and removing uncertainties about the tax situation, the flat tax would eventually benefit businesses. However, they would see their tax burden rise by about two-thirds, on average, from 31 percent of the total tax burden to around 50 percent. This tax increase on businesses would result from the loss of deductions for state and local taxes and for employee fringe benefits, among other things.

Though businesses will try to pass on these costs to consumers and employees-by raising prices and trimming fringe benefits, for example-shifting the nations tax burden to the business community will not produce successful tax reform. Next, the flat tax initially would raise taxes on the middle class by 20 percent. On average, a family with between $40,000 and $50,000 in adjusted gross income would see there taxes rise about $700 to about $7.500.

The flat tax also appears to have a major fairness problem. For example consider two families. The Jones have a combined salary of $50,000 in wages. Under the flat tax, a 20 percent rate would cost this family $3,700. Now consider the Smiths, who in retirement consume every dollar of their $1 million in dividend income. Under the flat tax, the Smiths owe no tax at all because capital income is excluded from the tax base. To be sure, their dividend income was taxed at least once at the business level before they received it. But the perception would persist that a high income family would pay no tax. Will tax fairness be defined so that individuals consuming significant amounts of capital income would pay little or no tax?

Though difficult issues, they are not impossible to resolve. Moreover, the system's advantage could well outweigh it's drawbacks. The flat tax could prove a boon for the economy by eliminating a passel of convoluted tax disincentives to saving and
investing. Economists will quibble over exact estimates, but there can be no question that savings and investment will improve in both the short and long run under a flat tax. Advocates are correct to insist that the flat tax would be much simpler than the current tax system. The new system would tax only the income derived from individual labor, after allowing for personal exemptions. There would be no deductions. The flat tax would tax businesses' net cash income at the same rate that applies to individual income, while eliminating all the apical tax provisions that penalize some businesses while benefiting others.

One big problem with the current system is that it costs from $150 billion to $300 billion annually to operate. The flat tax, by contrast, would cost about 1/5th as much once fully phased in. These cost savings are equivalent to more than a $100 billion tax cut for the American people.

No tax system is perfect, and no tax reform proposal is without flaws. In the end, the flat tax's greatest strength is that it would remove the current tax system's depressing effect on the economy. This over time, could make up for all the problems mentioned above. But before it can pass the problems must be addressed.
 
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