what we`re up against..warning:this is nasty

gardenweasel

el guapo
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"the bunker"
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) —""" American soldiers discovered a girls school being built north of Baghdad had become an explosives-rigged “death trap,” the U.S. military said Thursday.

The plot at the Huda Girls’ school in Tarmiya was a “sophisticated and premeditated attempt to inflict massive casualties on our most innocent victims,” military spokesman Maj. Gen. William Caldwell said.

The military suspects the plot was the work of al Qaeda, because of its nature and sophistication, Caldwell said in an interview with CNN’s Wolf Blitzer.

The plot was uncovered Saturday, when troopers in the Salaheddin province found detonating wire across the street from the school. They picked up the wire and followed its trail, which led to the school. Once inside, they found an explosive-filled propane tank buried beneath the floor. There were artillery shells built into the ceiling and floor, and another propane tank was found, the military said.

The wire was concealed with mortar and concrete, and the propane tanks had been covered with brick and hidden underneath the floor, according to a military statement. Soldiers were able to clear the building.

“It was truly just an incredibly ugly, dirty kind of vicious killing that would have gone on here,” Caldwell said""""

when you read a report like this you have to wonder how anyone can debate hether to allow any such society weapons of mass destruction.....

this enemy boobytraps schools.....even animals protect their young...

if this enemy had "weapons of mass destruction" they would use them.....


and on a lighter note(by 7th century standards)...

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1...to_Death_for_Dating_a_Man_of_Another_Religion

execution by mob....videos like this should be on the news at night with a suitable warning...maybe theres a vague possibility people may wake up......

and notice in the video how everyone is recording on cellphones.....for the next barbecue?....nauseating....

looking at this shit,it`s even more absurd when considering all the christian and mormon bashing that goes on in this forum...jews /christians and mormons are dangerous?...

yeah,right....and stonings and bombing girl`s schools are just cultultural idiosyncrasies......
 
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WhatsHisNuts

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looking at this shit,it`s even more absurd when considering all the christian and mormon bashing that goes on in this forum...jews /christians and mormons are dangerous?...

yeah,right....and stonings and bombing girl`s schools are just cultultural idiosyncrasies......

Excuse me? Your train of thought is crazy. Christianity (etc.) is not the answer to a country's problems. Drawing morality from the Bible or any other ancient book is ridiculous. Using modern philosophy and morals is much more prudent. Stop acting like religion is the answer, it is anything but. Use your brain, not a book, to help guide you through life.
 

triple7allstar

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Excuse me? Your train of thought is crazy. Christianity (etc.) is not the answer to a country's problems. Drawing morality from the Bible or any other ancient book is ridiculous. Using modern philosophy and morals is much more prudent. Stop acting like religion is the answer, it is anything but. Use your brain, not a book, to help guide you through life.

Where do you think you got your "modern" sense of morality? Do you think you were born with it? Come on. The Bible and the teachings contained therein are the BASIS for all of our "modern" morality, which, unfortunately, is on a slippery slope of acceptance and tolerance.

I've got one question for you. What is the basis / foundation for "modern" morality apart from any (not just Christian) god?

You'll say that it is inside of everyone - and that everyone has thier own "truth". Everyone has their own moral code, etc.

I will say to you that unless there is an absolute truth, there is NO truth. Truth can never be anything but absolute - anything less than that is not truth.

Truth is what the Middle East needs. Unfortunately, they have bought the lie of Islam hook, line and sinker.
 

Chadman

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Anyone else feel a little icky about the connotation of a "Girls School" being "Booby Trapped?" Can we even talk about that, legally?

:look:
 

triple7allstar

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hahaha - oops - I replied to that - I'm sure they're going to find me in my sleep now and lock me up. Well, better go out with a bang (hollers over his shoulder) "Honey, pass me another Corona"
 

gardenweasel

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"the bunker"
Excuse me? Your train of thought is crazy. Christianity (etc.) is not the answer to a country's problems. Drawing morality from the Bible or any other ancient book is ridiculous. Using modern philosophy and morals is much more prudent. Stop acting like religion is the answer, it is anything but. Use your brain, not a book, to help guide you through life.

"christianity is not the answer to a country`s problems"....that`s what you gleaned from my post?.....

i`m not a terribly religious fellow....but, i`m downright benevolent toward religions that basically leave me to my own devices...on the other hand,those that want to kill me tend to get my attention....

who cares(other than yourself)what religion anyone believes in?....i don`t....everyone`s free to do their own thing within the law...this is still america...at least for the time being...

i`d just like to see the end of those that want to use religion as justification for "murdering" any and everyone...women and children included....that doesn`t toe the line....

worship as you please...or don`t worship....

but,no need to (get indignant) foist your personal philosophy on everyone else....

you worship no false idols..it`s all hocum.......we get it......and that`s cool...

be a good little atheist....
 
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WhatsHisNuts

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Where do you think you got your "modern" sense of morality? Do you think you were born with it? Come on. The Bible and the teachings contained therein are the BASIS for all of our "modern" morality, which, unfortunately, is on a slippery slope of acceptance and tolerance.
I think I got my modern sense of morality from education. An education that consists of schooling and personal experience. If you think the Bible is all that moral, you haven't read it or you choose to ignore the parts about killing unbelievers and keeping slaves.

I've got one question for you. What is the basis / foundation for "modern" morality apart from any (not just Christian) god?
Education and humanity.

You'll say that it is inside of everyone - and that everyone has thier own "truth". Everyone has their own moral code, etc.
I won't say that.

I will say to you that unless there is an absolute truth, there is NO truth. Truth can never be anything but absolute - anything less than that is not truth.
What is absolute truth? Belief in fairies? Belief in ancient novels? Come on son, if you are going to bring something to the table, bring something to the the table. Talking in abstract meanings doesn't really get us to anything does it?

Truth is what the Middle East needs. Unfortunately, they have bought the lie of Islam hook, line and sinker.
They need education, not "truth". They are living in a society that is behind the times....much like the people that wrote your "Truth" years ago.

The real question I have is: What is your real MadJacks name? Who joins a gambling forum (with allstar in the name) only to post in the religion section? I hate to go SpyTheWeb on you hear, but someting stinks.
 

triple7allstar

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I think I got my modern sense of morality from education. An education that consists of schooling and personal experience. If you think the Bible is all that moral, you haven't read it or you choose to ignore the parts about killing unbelievers and keeping slaves.


Education and humanity.


I won't say that.


What is absolute truth? Belief in fairies? Belief in ancient novels? Come on son, if you are going to bring something to the table, bring something to the the table. Talking in abstract meanings doesn't really get us to anything does it?


They need education, not "truth". They are living in a society that is behind the times....much like the people that wrote your "Truth" years ago.

The real question I have is: What is your real MadJacks name? Who joins a gambling forum (with allstar in the name) only to post in the religion section? I hate to go SpyTheWeb on you hear, but someting stinks.


First of all, I joined this forum because I enjoy playing poker. However, I love religion and politics as well. This thread got my attention first. The issue of slavery in the Bible is another topic for another day. I'll just tell you to read this article to gain some historical understanding:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html

As far as killing unbelievers - that was OT law, which is different than NT grace. I don't understand a lot, but I do understand one thing, that our fate (everyone - including me) would be grave apart from the gift that was given by Christ on the cross in the NT. It's what we deserve. Now, instead of seeing us as we truly are - sinners deserving death - God sees us through the "lense" of His Son's death. He sees us as He sees his Son.

Also, I said that you would say that our "truth" can be found inside of ourselves. You said that was not true. Instead, you said that truth can be found in "education and humanity", which I argue is stating the same thing. Tell me how that statement differs at all from what I said you would say.

Let me make one simple point. I don't believe that we have the ability to make or develop our own truth. Because we are subjective beings. Our feelings, social structure, attitudes, etc change.

I know that we will disagree. I want you to know that I respect your opinion but must disagree with you.

My point is that Truth MUST be constant - or else it isn't truth. If humans hold truth inside of themselves, or in "education and humanity" as you stated, it takes the absolute nature away from it. Meaning, I can hold different "truths" from the "truths" that you would hold, etc. The things that you would deem moral/immoral could thereby be different from the things that I deem moral/immoral. That's not truth. That's opinion. Real truth must be consistent.

IF, truth is consistent, and therefore absolute, I believe that there must have been an all powerful God who gave it to us in the form of laws, teachings etc. It has to be that way for real truth be true.

Now, I recognize that I might be wrong, and I understand that this is a "circular" argument. However, everyone on the planet excersises some level of faith in their daily lives.

I think there is perhaps one other fundamental difference that I can state here as a basis for why we disagree. I believe that people are inherintly bad creatures who do evil things. While I would assume that it is your belief that people are inherintly good creatures. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Again, I know that this is a hot topic that we won't resolve on this forum, so perhaps we should agree to disagree and go play some poker - haha.

Just thought that I would share where I was coming from. Hope you didn't feel attacked by what I said - I know I was a bit harsh. I apologize if I offended you.

I wish you the best.
 

JCDunkDogs

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I've got one question for you. What is the basis / foundation for "modern" morality apart from any (not just Christian) god?

I don't want to seem stupid, nor stray too far from gardenweasal's threat topic, but maybe we should set down the definition of the term "god."
 

WhatsHisNuts

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First of all, I joined this forum because I enjoy playing poker. However, I love religion and politics as well. This thread got my attention first. The issue of slavery in the Bible is another topic for another day. I'll just tell you to read this article to gain some historical understanding:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html

If you are, in fact, a new member....welcome to the party. I represent the unbelievers, but I don't like to think that I'm characterized by what I'm against.....but so goes it. If you really like this stuff, we've covered a lot of ground over the last couple months, so it might be worth your while to check out some older threads.

I checked out your link about slavery and the Bible and it is very apologetic. Doesn't seem to address the real issue but tries to put a spin on it: ie., it teaches people how to treat slaves. I'd think that a book written by your God would not tell you how to treat them, but to tell you to release them....but that's just me. I guess the OT argument should fit nicely right about now.

As far as killing unbelievers - that was OT law, which is different than NT grace. I don't understand a lot, but I do understand one thing, that our fate (everyone - including me) would be grave apart from the gift that was given by Christ on the cross in the NT. It's what we deserve. Now, instead of seeing us as we truly are - sinners deserving death - God sees us through the "lense" of His Son's death. He sees us as He sees his Son.
Hmmm. OT law? Either the "HOLY BIBLE" was written by God or it wasn't. If you say it was divinely "inspired", I guess God just wasn't all that ethically evolved until he incarnated himself -or- sent his son to earth....and then inspired the NT. So, are you saying that God didn't quite come around to humanity until he learned from Jesus? I'm sure you can understand my confusion.

Also, I said that you would say that our "truth" can be found inside of ourselves. You said that was not true. Instead, you said that truth can be found in "education and humanity", which I argue is stating the same thing. Tell me how that statement differs at all from what I said you would say.
Well, I think that saying that "truth" is learned (me) and saying "truth" is inherent (you) are far from the same thing.

Let me make one simple point. I don't believe that we have the ability to make or develop our own truth. Because we are subjective beings. Our feelings, social structure, attitudes, etc change.
That's contradictory to the Bible. Either the book is gospel, or it is not. There shouldn't be any subjectivity involved. It is the word of God, and I don't see a lot of change except in the fact that the Bible is not quite a "true" as it once was.

I know that we will disagree. I want you to know that I respect your opinion but must disagree with you.
Likewise. I like this topic, and I will try to make my points. I don't think people that believe in supernatural forces are crazy or stupid, I just think it is illogical and the concept (or reason for it) isn't for me.


My point is that Truth MUST be constant - or else it isn't truth. If humans hold truth inside of themselves, or in "education and humanity" as you stated, it takes the absolute nature away from it. Meaning, I can hold different "truths" from the "truths" that you would hold, etc. The things that you would deem moral/immoral could thereby be different from the things that I deem moral/immoral. That's not truth. That's opinion. Real truth must be consistent.
Are Christians consistent? Look at history, and tell me where the consistency is...outside of violence, of course. How does the truth of today compare with the truth during the Inquisition?


IF, truth is consistent, and therefore absolute, I believe that there must have been an all powerful God who gave it to us in the form of laws, teachings etc. It has to be that way for real truth be true.
No offense, but this makes no sense. The absence of one doesn't prove another....at least not when you're talking about whether or not there is a god.


Now, I recognize that I might be wrong, and I understand that this is a "circular" argument. However, everyone on the planet excersises some level of faith in their daily lives.
The difference between faith in God and faith in the sun rising aren't the same are they? Don't discount the meaning put on religious faith, because faith is the theist answer to a lot of atheist questions.

I think there is perhaps one other fundamental difference that I can state here as a basis for why we disagree. I believe that people are inherintly bad creatures who do evil things. While I would assume that it is your belief that people are inherintly good creatures. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I believe that humans are inherently bad and that education and humanity help develop people into "good" creatures.

Again, I know that this is a hot topic that we won't resolve on this forum, so perhaps we should agree to disagree and go play some poker - haha.

Just thought that I would share where I was coming from. Hope you didn't feel attacked by what I said - I know I was a bit harsh. I apologize if I offended you.

I wish you the best.
No offense taken. I like this topic and I like to debate. As long as you don't throw out personal attacks when backed into a corner, I'm all for the discussion.

-Gary
 

triple7allstar

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Hmmm. OT law? Either the "HOLY BIBLE" was written by God or it wasn't.

It was. All of it. I believe that. However, I'll be the first to tell you that there is a lot about the Bible and life, for that matter, that I don't get. Like, I'm surprised why someone hasn't asked me why a just God lets African babies die. I don't know the answer to this tragedy, but I believe that God is just.

If you say it was divinely "inspired", I guess God just wasn't all that ethically evolved until he incarnated himself -or- sent his son to earth....and then inspired the NT. So, are you saying that God didn't quite come around to humanity until he learned from Jesus? I'm sure you can understand my confusion.

I do believe that the entire Bible is divinely inspired, and I do take it all for truth, however, there is a difference between the OT and NT. There was an "Old" covenant that was completed / "fixed" - haha (I think we've been down this convo road before).

The completion of this covenant is what allows us forgiveness of sins without having to sacrifice animals to atone for our sins. There is also the ability to "commune" with God anywhere - without the need for a priest to intercede for us. God used to only dwell with his people in the Temple of Israel (OT), but now dwells in our bodily temples.

those are just a few of the big differences between OT and NT.

Also, I said that you would say that our "truth" can be found inside of ourselves. You said that was not true. Instead, you said that truth can be found in "education and humanity", which I argue is stating the same thing. Tell me how that statement differs at all from what I said you would say.

Well, I think that saying that "truth" is learned (me) and saying "truth" is inherent (you) are far from the same thing.

I guess I should clarify, what I meant by saying that you would say "truth is inside of ourselves". You then went on to say that in fact, truth can be found in "education and humanity". I think this is the same thing.(Inside of ourselves = learning via Education and Humanity)

Both situations are dependent on people - either teaching or learning.

I think that apart from God there is no way for anyone to know anything that is true. I think it is God that gives us the ability to learn in the first place - so any form of truth that is learned can be attributed to God. I don't believe that we are born with this truth inside of us by any means. I think we are ALMOST saying the same thing - I just think the ultimate source of truth is God and not Man teaching Man.


Let me make one simple point. I don't believe that we have the ability to make or develop our own truth. Because we are subjective beings. Our feelings, social structure, attitudes, etc change.

That's contradictory to the Bible. Either the book is gospel, or it is not. There shouldn't be any subjectivity involved. It is the word of God, and I don't see a lot of change except in the fact that the Bible is not quite a "true" as it once was.

Actually, I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying here. I think that the Bible is completely Objective and that WE (humanity) are subjective.

Are Christians consistent? Look at history, and tell me where the consistency is...outside of violence, of course. How does the truth of today compare with the truth during the Inquisition?

You're right! I wish every Christian was a perfect example of Christianity as shown to us by Christ. He was the only one that was able to walk a perfect life. I always say that if it wasn't for the people the church would be perfect.

IF, truth is consistent, and therefore absolute, I believe that there must have been an all powerful God who gave it to us in the form of laws, teachings etc. It has to be that way for real truth be true.

No offense, but this makes no sense. The absence of one doesn't prove another....at least not when you're talking about whether or not there is a god.

I know that this doesn't prove the existence of God - but I didn't say that either. All I said was that I "believe" that there must have been an all powerful God who gave us His truth. Or that there must have been some all powerful / perfect being to teach us truth originally. I don't think that we progressively become more perfect, honest, tolerant, creatures.

I think we have progressively become more and more depraved, because we have moved farther and farther away from God's teachings.


The difference between faith in God and faith in the sun rising aren't the same are they?
You're right, they aren't. I don't want to start a creation vs evolution thread here, but how did we start? I'm sure you hold your own opinions (this time I won't speak for you :)) Bottom line is that no one was there when it happened and we all have to have some faith in whatever our beliefs are. God / chicken / big bang / nothing / etc - they all take faith in one form or another.

Don't discount the meaning put on religious faith, because faith is the theist answer to a lot of atheist questions.
Unfortunately, the atheist can't answer all of their questions either.

I believe that humans are inherently bad and that education and humanity help develop people into "good" creatures.
This is excellent. I think you and I ALMOST agree here. The problem I have is that we can't become perfect - and because of this we are in need of a savior. We need a savior to take our place (death) because we can't pay our own debt. We have to lean on Christ to make up for what we lack.

No offense taken. I like this topic and I like to debate. As long as you don't throw out personal attacks when backed into a corner, I'm all for the discussion.

-Gary

You're the man Gary. I hope that I'm doing an ok job of explaining my POV. If you're ever in Seattle I'd love to get a beer and chat.

- Tyler Andrew (the triple7allstar)
 
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