When does the trickle down start?

dr. freeze

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smurphy said:
Freeze, I don't understand where you think I'm suggesting MORE government.

I'm suggesting higher minimum wage - that's all. The rest I'm suggesting is much less government. No Earned Income Credits, Cut back on lenght of unemployment benefits, and I would love for there to be some kind of flat tax, free of loopholes.

Regarding illegals - can't you see that because they are here it completely destroys any kind of fair competition for lower paying jobs?

i definitely can see that and think they should all be deported immediately

i agree with getting rid of loopholes and the flat tax

but i disagree with the government getting involved in business except to bust trusts...and they cant even do that without being inept
 

smurphy

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my point is that the government is already involved too much in terms of giving credits to full-time minimum wage earners because those wages are too low to make a living. Make them higher simply for the purpose of eliminating the handout. ALL OF US are making up the difference right now because it's an unnecessary depletion of public money. My suggestion actually has a conservative element to it - it actually cuts down on handouts. What's wrong with that?

As for the armed forces - hell - I would actually be in favor of some kind of required national service. I wish I was forced to do something after high school - would have built more character than what I have. Doesn't have to be military, but all Americans should probably spend a year doing something to advance/maintain the society - help old folks, clean the parks, clean the streets, walk dogs - whatever.
 

StevieD

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You can try to blame the working class all you want but the truth is and you know is that the tax cut was a disaster. I think there is inflation Freeze because of the deficit. Caused by the under funded, no reason, war. Sure it has created a few jobs and kept Bush's head above water but the clock is ticking. Where are all the jobs these tax cuts for the rich would create?
 

smurphy

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If all we had to fight was Afghanistan, it would be an entirely different picture in terms of cost. ...And guess what - THAT is the war on Terror. ...OK, Iraq is now, but it sure wasn't before invasion.

If you think Clinton (or any president) wouldn't have attacked Afghanistan and cleared out the Taliban then....well, then you are blinded by Clinton hate to the point of unreasonableness.
 

AR182

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smurphy quote:"my point is that the government is already involved too much in terms of giving credits to full-time minimum wage earners because those wages are too low to make a living."


i have a few opinions about this subject.


if a couple find that their wages are not enough to support their family........

why can't they either do over time at their jobs or if that is not available...then they should get 2nd jobs. that is what my parents did in the beginning.

when i used to apply people for medicaid in nyc, there were many examples of people complainig that their family is too big for them to support.....at first i felt sorry for these people. but then that opinion changed when i realized that that excused was just a cop out & i started thinking that these people should taking responsibilty for their actions.maybe there should be some type of family planning counseling for these irresponsible people.

as i stated befiore i'm very much against giving illegals any benefits that this country offers.illegals should be deported immediately & companies that hire illegals should be fined.with this happening, businesses will have no alternative but to hire americans who are looking for jobs.....this also will, imo raise the minimum wage.
 

smurphy

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I think I agree with your theory in the last paragraph. It could be that the effect of illegal labor alone is what keeps minimum wage down.

Whatever it would take to make it higher so that the government is not making up tyhe difference would make sense to me.

Without the EIC, no minimum wage family can make it, plain and simple. Raise the wage a couple bucks and no need for the rest of us to supplement that wage.
 
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ferdville

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Let's just raise the minimum wage and everybody will be happy? Huh? Do you think the emloyer is going to eat that extra salary - of course not, it will be passed on to the consumer. So we will now all pay higher prices. And if the minimum wage in California is $6.75 and I am working for $9, then the minimum wage goes up to $8.50, do you think I am going to expect a raise? Yes - as the minimum wage rises so do the rest of the wages. So what happens, same old, same old, all prices go up again. Another problem with raising minimum wage involves illegals. All of a sudden I am forced to pay $10 an hour for entry level positions. But maybe I can hire some poor slob illegal who will work for $6 per hour under the table. So now I break the law by hiring illegals to save money and you lose your job because the minimum wage inflates my payroll to a spot where I cannot raise prices enough to compensate. It is a vicious cycle. You can't just up the minimum wage without affecting this, that and the other. Another problem with raising the minimum wage is that employers cut the number of minimum wage jobs available because of the excess cost.

And by the way guys, the government doesn't spend money. It doesn't fall out of trees or come off the copy machine in the back room. Government money is taxpayer money plain and simple. It is our money.
 

smurphy

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Whatever price increases that occur will be small relative to what is made up for by the government (the rest of us) as it is IMO.

Obviously as long as illegals are finding work for below minimum wage then nothing adds up right.

Doesn't the fact that minimumwage has to supplemented in order for people to make a living tell us that minimum is not high enough? Without the EIC, minimum wage is on par with Depression levels.
 

ferdville

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Minimum wage jobs are minimum wage jobs for a reason - generally the person has no skills to offer. Perhaps if that person tried to improve their education at some time in their life, they wouldn't be stuck in a low paying job. There are adult schools all over the country that serve people at no cost. People can go to an adult school to get their hs diploma or learn trades that translate into better jobs. Most places have Regional Occupation Centers that are also available to the public at no cost again giving students an oppportunity to learn job skills. And if they don't want to do any of those things, maybe they should get a second job. I am not ashamed to admit that I worked two jobs for a few years and I would bet that other people in here have done the same. We (taxpayers) can't supplement the incomes of everyone that is simply too lazy or just unwilling to improve their lot in life.
 

smurphy

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Well we are supplementing them right now with Earned Income Tax Credits. You are currently supplementing the minimum wage. It's part of the tax code. OK - so according to you, people are stuck at the bottom because they simply don't educate and work themselves higher. Well, what if everyone did that? Someone is still gonna end up with the bottom jobs and wages. We obviously can't all be at the top. It's mathematically impossible.

Yeah, I know all about multiple jobs. I've had 3 bottom end jobs at the same time before. But I wouldn't have been able to support a family and house. It paid some college bills and kept me eating and under a roof, but not much more.
 

dawgball

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smurphy--in your last post, you talk about a cycle if everyone raised their skills to get better jobs. first, that theory doesn't work because as a society there are always new bodies being introduced to the work place who would fill the minimum wage positions. if you take the initiative and increase your skill, you would move out of this subset.

raising minimum wage does nothing for the overall job market because employers would have to cut that the number of that level of job to compete with cost structures or fmv.

you are absolutely correct that people willing to work for less than minimum wage whether illegal or not hurts the jobs available at minimum wage.

but i am also steadfast that someone without true disability should be able to provide a livable standard of living for them and their family. for those with true disabilities there should be government programs to supplement or private organizations ready to assist. the problem is way too many people take advantage of the system we have now.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Ferd and Dawgball hit nail on the head on minimum wage.
If X company needs x profit to stay in business and he has to raise wages he has only 2 alternatives raise his prices or cut # of employees.

I would be curious to know which here (and why) are not better off finacially now than 4 years ago or 10 years ago. I still contend the pres or party in power has little to do with persons ability to succeed--most events that occur that effect our bottom line or random occurrances by nature or other catastrophes.
While I think our economy is in great shape for all that has occurred I think it is much more to do with the resilience of free enterprise than any tax cut--nor do I think Bill and the boys had any remote resonsibilty for dot.com boom or bust which gave the added revenue to balance budget.
I do know you can't cut input (taxes) and increase output(federal spending) forever and survive.
My greatest bitch on the Reb party is they come out with "the" best piece of legislation ever passed in my view--the Contract with America--then when they get in office seem to forget all about it.
If I was the Dems I would quit whining about trivial BS and hit on this issue.
 

kosar

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dr. freeze said:
kosar do you scoff at what George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and other statesment said about arms?


No, I don't. I only scoff at people who are still living in the 1700's.
 

kosar

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dr. freeze said:
June 8, 1783, Washington reported to the States, in surrendering the solemn trust of his command:



"The Militia of this Country must be considered as the Palladium of our security, and the first effectual resort in case of hostility..."



Do you scoff at this guy Kosar? Do you think he knew anything about defense of his country? Is he a nut in your book?


This *should* be painfully obvious, but i'll go slow. 1783=Militia
2005=Military

I don't think having a coalition of rednecks banding together with their 30-06's would affect our national security in todays world. Things change, Freeze. We have a military as 'the first effectual resort in case of hostility'....my God.
 

kosar

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DOGS THAT BARK said:
Yep Kosar- and do you believe Gore invented the internet???
I am sure you are smart enough to know what caused the boom and when boom ended and why if not no use debating point.
Now if Bush let things go and didn't retaliate on terrorist and looked the other way as Slick did we wouldn't have that cost--if they had been more resourceful in 1st try of trade center under Slicks watch we had the economic jolt then. I assume some are naive think that corporations weren't cooking the books then --they just weren't investigated or procescuted.
Easy to be a do nothing president.

As I said, I don't think the sitting President, much less one from 5 years ago, has a lot to do with the DOW, but it's amazing that *somehow* you manage to blame Bubba for the DOW's anemic performance over Bush's term.
 

Master Capper

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There is no trickle down effect and morethan likely will not be one. While I support any tax cut to save myself some cash the Bush tax cut is not what it was implied to be. This tax cut was suppose to be the largest in history according to Bush, but in fact according to the National Taxpayers Union study, these tax cuts pale in comparison to the tax cuts from Reagan and kennedy in which there was an actual trickle down effect. The rw numbers are higher for the Bush cuts, but both Reagan and Kennedy had a larger portion of the cuts pointed toward the largest class in America the middle class, whereas Bush's cuts are more top heavy. By slanting the tax cuts more to middle america they were able to create spending which in turn led to a better economy, whereas Bush's cuts were based on an assumption that by giving the upper tier more cuts they would in turn expand their business operations and create more jobs, as of yet there has been minimal results from this. Another factor affecting the ability of a trickle down effect is the looming change in the ALternative Minimum tax, as Congress failed to index the tax, thus it will have to be changed within the next few years or the results will be a huge loss of any tax breaks for middle america, if this is not changed Bush's tax cuts will actually result in cuts of only 1.7% of GDP. In comparison Reagans and Kennedys tax cuts utilized indexing of the Alternative Minimum Tax, and Reagans cuts resulted in 5.6 og GDP and Kennedy 3.3% of GDP.
 

dr. freeze

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kosar said:
No, I don't. I only scoff at people who are still living in the 1700's.

LMAO then i guess you just ignore the Constitution

I am sure George W, Thomas J, James M, and the rest of the out of touch government back then would defer to you on terms of national security and preservation of liberty
 
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