Where are all those cheering crowds that were supposed to come out and welcome their

Turfgrass

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A Question, and Answers
Why Iraqis were slow to embrace their liberators.

BY BERNARD LEWIS
Sunday, April 6, 2003 12:01 a.m. EST

"Where are those cheering crowds we were told would come out to greet us?"

This question was asked with increasing urgency--by most with puzzlement, by some with anguish, by others with derision, according to temperament and allegiance. It is a fair question, and it deserves an answer. Different answers have been offered to this question, varying again according to temperament, allegiance, and other factors. But in any answer, three points are of central importance.

The first of these is the Iraqi rising and repression of 1991.

At the beginning of the Gulf War in that year, the U.S. government called on the people of Iraq to rise in rebellion and overthrow the tyrant who had oppressed them for so long. They responded readily, and rebellions broke out in many parts of the country. But in the meantime, the victorious U.S. had accorded a cease-fire to the defeated Iraqi dictator. In the days that followed, Saddam Hussein, using the helicopters that the cease-fire agreement had allowed him to retain, ostensibly for transport purposes, crushed the rebellion, region by region and group by group, Shiites in the south and Kurds in the north, killing tens of thousands in the most brutal way, including with chemical weapons.

Various explanations have been offered as to why the United States government granted a cease-fire in the moment of victory, and there are even some who still defend it. There is no defense--though some have offered explanations--of the abandonment of those whom we had incited to rebel. Our Iraqi friends--and I mean friends--saw this as a betrayal; and this left, at the very least, a legacy of caution and suspicion.





This caution and suspicion were revived and reinforced by two new concerns, one deriving from the conduct of the war, the other from the debate about the war.
In purely military terms, the decision to go straight for Baghdad, bypassing the cities of the south, was no doubt a wise tactical choice. It did however leave the largely Shiite south under Saddam Hussein's control. He probably had insufficient regular forces there to cope with a major military assault, but the whole monstrous apparatus of surveillance and repression remained in place, and the people in the south knew very well what would happen to them if they revealed their real sympathies prematurely.

Their understandable caution was further reinforced by the strong and vocal opposition to the war around the world and more especially in the United States. This manifested itself in many ways and, under their very eyes, in the mostly critical questioning of the military by the media in the press briefings taking place on their doorstep.

For us in the West, this is the normal free debate of an open society. But Iraqis, both rulers and ruled, have had no experience of any such thing since the overthrow of the parliamentary regime and the establishment of the dictatorship almost 50 years ago. What they believe they see is indecision, hesitation, even weakness and fear.

This could only intensify their worry that once again the United States may flinch from finishing the job, and reach some kind of accommodation, if not with Saddam Hussein himself, then with some like-minded but more amenable successor, found among his entourage. There are indeed audible voices advocating just such a resolution of the conflict.

The public debate against the war will be similarly understood--or rather misunderstood--both by Saddam Hussein and by his subjects, and will have the unintended effect of encouraging him and discouraging them. The antiwar campaign will not end the war, but it may turn out to have made it longer and harder.
 

djv

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This war is over in next two days. As far as what we call war. What maybe on gojng for a long time is same chit Israel deals with eveyday. Terroist, Car/Bus bombings. That's why I want our troops the hell out of there in six months. Let new government handle that chit.
 

ferdville

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Considering at least 2 people were hanged for waving at our troops, I am thinking that some people may have a little trepidation about welcoming our troops until Saddam and Sons are gone for good. And, as mentioned, our piss poor job of fulfilling our promises to stand by them last time can't help.
 

dr. freeze

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one Iraqi goes up to the camera chanting "Go George Bush...Go Bill Clinton!"

only people harrassing our soldiers now are the "human shields" over there.....lmao.....wouldda bitch-slapped one british woman on there they show time and time again harrassing our marines....marines just stand there and ignore her though

those peaceniks never will get it i guess....they are still telling us we are "murdering" the Iraqi people....guess they think a few dozen casualties of war which we tried our best to avoid is worse than millions who have been tortured over the years and an entire civilization being repressed
 

djv

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Keep handing out those candy bars. Tell you what. You cant believe the friend a GI makes handing out a baberuth, or snickers.
 

dr. freeze

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dont think we have that many candy bars over there djv....and any we did have probably wouldda melted by now....

i think we are seeing yet again another example of the value of freedom....people feel free right now anyway....still a ways to go...

dont think we should be in a haste to get out of there....need to make sure there is a law in the land first....
 

ChrryBlstr

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guess they think a few dozen casualties of war which we tried our best to avoid is worse than millions who have been tortured over the years and an entire civilization being repressed


sounds kinda like john stuart mill's utilitarian question....


1. What is the question that Utilitarianism addresses?

While the other authors we?ve discussed have focused more on the question of what reasons we have for being good, the Utilitarian?s primary focus is on which actions right or wrong in the first place, and what are the sorts of facts that make them so. Having such criteria in place would let us come up with determinate answers to the following types of questions:


(a) Mary wants to kill me in order to steal my wallet and tries to hit me over the head with a fire extinguisher. Bob slips, and the fire extinguisher strikes a glancing blow against my back instead. This blow, luckily enough, manages to relocate a slipped disk and thus relieves me of a painful back problem that had been bothering me for a the last few years. Susan, on the other hand, wants nothing but the best for me, and having recently completed his degree in chiropractic, wants to make my back better by performing an ?adjustment? on my neck. Unfortunately, Tom is not a very good chiropractor, and the adjustment produces a chronic neck pain that plagues me for the rest of my life. Who performed the morally right action, Mary or Susan?


(b) Peter is in my kitchen, having recently come over to borrow a cup of sugar. While he is there, Bob comes to the door looking for Peter. I know that Bob intends to kill Peter, and will be able to do so if he finds him. I also know that if I tell Bob that Peter just left town, then Peter?s (innocent) life will be saved. Should I lie to Bob or not?


(c) While vacationing in some foreign country, I come across 20 villagers who are about to be executed by the government. The general in charge, however, offers to let 19 of the prisoners go, if I agree to shoot the 20th one myself. Should I shoot the one (innocent) villager myself, or should I let the twenty (innocent) villagers be executed by the General?s soldiers?


(d) I am driving in my motorboat and I notice 10 people drowning 10 miles to my left. However, I also notice at that time that my two parents are drowning 10 miles to my left. I know that I will have time to save one of the two groups, but not both, and I know that no one else is around to save either. Who should I save? the 10 strangers or my parents?



2. What answer to that question does the utilitarian provide?


Now the utilitarian has a specific answer to these questions that is based upon 4 basic assumptions:

i: Consequentialism: Actions should be evaluated in terms of their consequences rather than their causes.

ii) Pleasure and freedom from pain are the only valuable consequences.

iii) Happiness (understood and presence of pleasure and absence of pain) can be quantified and measured.

iv) Impartiality: Everyone?s happiness counts equally.



With these four assumptions in place the utilitarian is able to conclude that the right action is the one that maximizes utility. (Where utility (happiness) is understood as pleasure and lack of pain). As Mill puts it:


?the Greatest Happiness Principle, holds that actions are right in proportion as they tend to promote happiness, wrong as they tend to produce the reverse of happiness. By happiness is intended pleasure, and the absence of pain; by unhappiness, pain and the privation of pleasure.? (188)


The Utilitarian would thus respond to cases (a) ?(d) in the following way:

(a) In this case, it is Mary who performed the morally right action, because she made my back better in spite of her desire to kill me. As Mill states (p. 193) out motives do not affect the morality of our actions. That said, it still makes sense to care about the motives of those around us, since someone who is motivated to do us harm will typically manage to do so.

(b) The utilitarian will find it quite easy to lie to Bob. The utilitarian thinks that there isn?t anything intrinsically wrong about lying, its just that it typically causes harm, and would generally cause harm were it to become widespread. This doesn?t change the fact that the general utility would be greatly increased by lying to Bob in this instance.

(c) The Utilitarian would recommend shooting the villager, since there is no general prohibition against killing in the utilitarian system. Killing tends to diminish utility, but in an instance where a killing would save the lives of 19 people, it is certainly the right thing to do.

(d) Since utilitarianism is impartial, it would clearly recommend saving the group of 10 people and letting one?s own parents drown. Its commitment to impartiality seems to make considerations about whose happiness is being maximized irrelevant.


3. How is Mill?s account of utilitarianism different?


The main difference between Mill?s version of Utilitarianism and earlier varieties came from his assertion that their were pleasures that fell into distinct kinds. There has been a traditions going back to the Epicureans insisting that some pleasures (typically the pleasures of the mind) were better than others (typically the pleasures of the body), but the difference between the two still remained a quantitative difference. The pleasures of reading poetry are, for instance, preferable to the pleasures of drinking whisky not because they are intrinsically more pleasurable, but because they are more durable. Pursuing the pleasures of whisky eventually produce a considerable amount of displeasure (resulting from hangovers, liver damage, and the consequences of any foolish actions performed while drinking), while the pleasures of poetry can be pursued cheaply and in large quantities without any ill effect.


Mill, on the other hand, suggests that there is also a qualitative difference between kinds of pleasures, and ?Of two pleasure, if there be one to which all or almost all who have experience of both give a decided preference . . . that is the more desirable pleasure? (189). The more desirable pleasures are recognized by those who have experienced all sorts, and even a small amount of these ?higher? pleasures are to be preferred to a much larger amount of ?lower? ones. As Mill puts it:


?It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied. And if the fool, or the pig, is of a different opinion, it is because they only know their own side of the question. ? (190)


:D
 

DR STRANGELOVE

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ChrryBlstr said:
guess they think a few dozen casualties of war which we tried our best to avoid is worse than millions who have been tortured over the years and an entire civilization being repressed


sounds kinda like john stuart mill's utilitarian question....


1. What is the question that Utilitarianism addresses?

While the other authors we?ve discussed have focused more on the question of what reasons we have for being good, the Utilitarian?s primary focus is on which actions right or wrong in the first place, and what are the sorts of facts that make them so. Having such criteria in place would let us come up with determinate answers to the following types of questions:


(a) Mary wants to kill me in order to steal my wallet and tries to hit me over the head with a fire extinguisher. Bob slips, and the fire extinguisher strikes a glancing blow against my back instead. This blow, luckily enough, manages to relocate a slipped disk and thus relieves me of a painful back problem that had been bothering me for a the last few years. Susan, on the other hand, wants nothing but the best for me, and having recently completed his degree in chiropractic, wants to make my back better by performing an ?adjustment? on my neck. Unfortunately, Tom is not a very good chiropractor, and the adjustment produces a chronic neck pain that plagues me for the rest of my life. Who performed the morally right action, Mary or Susan?


(b) Peter is in my kitchen, having recently come over to borrow a cup of sugar. While he is there, Bob comes to the door looking for Peter. I know that Bob intends to kill Peter, and will be able to do so if he finds him. I also know that if I tell Bob that Peter just left town, then Peter?s (innocent) life will be saved. Should I lie to Bob or not?


(c) While vacationing in some foreign country, I come across 20 villagers who are about to be executed by the government. The general in charge, however, offers to let 19 of the prisoners go, if I agree to shoot the 20th one myself. Should I shoot the one (innocent) villager myself, or should I let the twenty (innocent) villagers be executed by the General?s soldiers?


(d) I am driving in my motorboat and I notice 10 people drowning 10 miles to my left. However, I also notice at that time that my two parents are drowning 10 miles to my left. I know that I will have time to save one of the two groups, but not both, and I know that no one else is around to save either. Who should I save? the 10 strangers or my parents?



2. What answer to that question does the utilitarian provide?


Now the utilitarian has a specific answer to these questions that is based upon 4 basic assumptions:

i: Consequentialism: Actions should be evaluated in terms of their consequences rather than their causes.

ii) Pleasure and freedom from pain are the only valuable consequences.

iii) Happiness (understood and presence of pleasure and absence of pain) can be quantified and measured.

iv) Impartiality: Everyone?s happiness counts equally.



With these four assumptions in place the utilitarian is able to conclude that the right action is the one that maximizes utility. (Where utility (happiness) is understood as pleasure and lack of pain). As Mill puts it:


?the Greatest Happiness Principle, holds that actions are right in proportion as they tend to promote happiness, wrong as they tend to produce the reverse of happiness. By happiness is intended pleasure, and the absence of pain; by unhappiness, pain and the privation of pleasure.? (188)


The Utilitarian would thus respond to cases (a) ?(d) in the following way:

(a) In this case, it is Mary who performed the morally right action, because she made my back better in spite of her desire to kill me. As Mill states (p. 193) out motives do not affect the morality of our actions. That said, it still makes sense to care about the motives of those around us, since someone who is motivated to do us harm will typically manage to do so.

(b) The utilitarian will find it quite easy to lie to Bob. The utilitarian thinks that there isn?t anything intrinsically wrong about lying, its just that it typically causes harm, and would generally cause harm were it to become widespread. This doesn?t change the fact that the general utility would be greatly increased by lying to Bob in this instance.

(c) The Utilitarian would recommend shooting the villager, since there is no general prohibition against killing in the utilitarian system. Killing tends to diminish utility, but in an instance where a killing would save the lives of 19 people, it is certainly the right thing to do.

(d) Since utilitarianism is impartial, it would clearly recommend saving the group of 10 people and letting one?s own parents drown. Its commitment to impartiality seems to make considerations about whose happiness is being maximized irrelevant.


3. How is Mill?s account of utilitarianism different?


The main difference between Mill?s version of Utilitarianism and earlier varieties came from his assertion that their were pleasures that fell into distinct kinds. There has been a traditions going back to the Epicureans insisting that some pleasures (typically the pleasures of the mind) were better than others (typically the pleasures of the body), but the difference between the two still remained a quantitative difference. The pleasures of reading poetry are, for instance, preferable to the pleasures of drinking whisky not because they are intrinsically more pleasurable, but because they are more durable. Pursuing the pleasures of whisky eventually produce a considerable amount of displeasure (resulting from hangovers, liver damage, and the consequences of any foolish actions performed while drinking), while the pleasures of poetry can be pursued cheaply and in large quantities without any ill effect.


Mill, on the other hand, suggests that there is also a qualitative difference between kinds of pleasures, and ?Of two pleasure, if there be one to which all or almost all who have experience of both give a decided preference . . . that is the more desirable pleasure? (189). The more desirable pleasures are recognized by those who have experienced all sorts, and even a small amount of these ?higher? pleasures are to be preferred to a much larger amount of ?lower? ones. As Mill puts it:


?It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied. And if the fool, or the pig, is of a different opinion, it is because they only know their own side of the question. ? (190)


:D


Practice for exams?

;)
 

ChrryBlstr

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one analogy the prof used....

say there's a dude who sees his doctor suffering from a common cold....now....he's in perfect health otherwise....the doctor, on the other hand has several other patients suffering from far worse maladies....bad kidneys, heart, lungs, etc....would it be morally right for the doctor to take these body parts from the healthy individual without their consent and give them to the several other patients in order to save their lives....in essence....sacrificing one life for the survival of many more....what is morally right....what is the greater good....is there really a right or wrong in this case???

hmmmmmmmmmmm....


:D
 

dr. freeze

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guess we shouldnt have fought the Revolutionary War then huh Cherry...

this does not "just" come down to a moral dilemma....it is not just over #'s of lives, but the peacenik human shields seem to absolutely forget about the number of lives that are spared by this action....

it ALSO comes down to FREEDOM and an EVIL dictator...and the speculative possibility of lives in our homeland that are being spared

if you question whether Saddam is evil or not, i guess -- which some moral relativists will do -- then i can't argue with you because we are in different ballparks
 

StevieD

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Freeze I may be wrong but can you point out one statement by anybody that Saddam is anything but evil?
 

ChrryBlstr

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guess we shouldnt have fought the Revolutionary War then huh Cherry...

hmmmmmmm....if you didn't....then wouldn't you still be brits....and is THAT really such a bad thing....aren't they kinda cool allies and all....*LOL*

nah....seriously, though....i agree that saddam's a bastage!!!

but...like i said....certain questions are indeed quite difficult to answer....and....for ME....no simple right or wrong....nor black or white....that's all!!!

:)
 

dr. freeze

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not on here but i sure do on the streets.....

see signs that "bush is the real evil" on Friday as i went to an outdoor concert here in Houston

so there are definitely people out there that do not think Hussein is evil
 

dr. freeze

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for me certain questions ARE right and wrong....

saying that there is nothign "truly right or wrong" is in fact a self-defeating statement because it lies on the premise that your premise is a truth
 
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