Wheres the beef?

hammer1

Registered User
Forum Member
Jun 17, 2002
7,791
127
63
Wisconsin and Dorado Puerto Rico
Sponge .... DJV Thanks

Sponge .... DJV Thanks

great write ups...was pretty much gonna say the same things...but i'll prob call someone "Stupid" and get a zilliion Neg Reputation points from some illiterate that has a compulsion to use the 4 letter slang word for fornication.

I'll have to next time use terms like "Out Of Touch"
"Home bound" "Dyslexic" like the Dumya is reputed to be..""Sheltered"" should fly too.

Tomorrow I'm going to have to face My Born Again relatives who think Homosexuality is a "Choice" and that God fed his flock for 40 years as they wandered the desert...and that The DumYa did indeed converse with God who told him to go spread
Democracy in Iraq!! Some of us do however know who was really whispering into Georges empty brain.

Anything in here to get me a couple a Red Zingers. I will wear them with pride.
.
 

hammer1

Registered User
Forum Member
Jun 17, 2002
7,791
127
63
Wisconsin and Dorado Puerto Rico
Just a Quickie Nick

Just a Quickie Nick

Ur right on target on a lot but don't u think we could find Truck Drivers in Iraq That would work for less than
$100,000/ year for Halliburton..and have u checked how many other companies could have under bid Halliburton for what they do there.
I have two family acquaintances that went over there that work in Communications that more than tripled their US wages.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,485
161
63
Bowling Green Ky
Addressing a few of specifics which is what was asked for.

"Tax Breaks that helped top 2.5% help them way more then anyone in lower brackets."

---the only people who did not benefit from tax breaks are those that pay no taxes,--period

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Take home pay that is after taxes are taken from there check have not gone up for middle class last two years. "

Explain how take home pay can not be more if pay is increased and taxes decrease--I'm stump on that one.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Healthcare and tuitions increased--

Tell me the last time either decreased. It sure wasn't in last admin--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thank you for providing specifics DJV

Sponge and Hammer--do you have any specifics or just rambles?
 

redsfann

ale connoisseur
Forum Member
Aug 3, 1999
9,193
362
83
60
Somewhere in Corn Country
You are correct, DTB, that I did not provide any specifics in my rant of yesterday. I replied in the heat of the moment without providing evidence to back up my opinions. I should have some time later today to do just that. Carry on...:D
 

djv

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 4, 2000
13,817
17
0
DTB NOT sue where your info came from to start with. I would guess same mind did. USA Today, CNN, & yes FOX. Unemployment measured how as asked by Tucker. Our service men coming home from Iraq and other places say face 13%. Tucker is not a real liberal. But if it's 13% for our service men how can real level be 5% for the rest.
Everyone knows what has has happen to Gas and Health Care. Everyone has watched interest rates just keep going up. Take home pay per article in USA last week take home pay down 2%.
Tax breaks helped those at higher end it takes no super math to see that. Sure we can talk just about those living in poverty that don't pay taxes because who they work for won't pay them a living wage. Wall Mart might be one. Or are you talking about the ones who sleep under bridges that gave up after serving there country. SO then were left with the 2% that will never work. And don't get any money back for paying nothing in. Clinton Cleaned up that well fair problem a great deal. One other thing our deficit was plus how much and now is minus how much? And market is nearing a all time high. Nearing is correct. WE just never get there even with this great tax breaks and super economy. WE shoud have blew by those old highs a year or two back.
 

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
Dogs, I know that you and other conservatives throw around 9-11 and Katrina as being big factors in the skyrocketing debt. I think it's important to examine these, and get a handle on what they actually represent in the big picture, since they are about the only excuses y'all can come up with.

Cost to the Federal Government of 9-11: $20 Billion. It cost the state of NY about 5 times that. So, if you stop and think what $20 billion means in the overal Bush big picture of debt increases, it is a VERY small water droplet in the bucket.

Cost to the Federal Government of Katrina: Nobody can seem to verify this, or pinpoint a real number. From many sources, the top level is about $200 billion. I can allow for that. So, your grand total for 9-11/Katrina is $220 Billion, and that may be high, but we can run with it for the sake of discussion.

What are the debts rung up in the Bush years? I'm sure most have seen the charts of how much it has risen under Bush, I won't bore you with that re-post. Let's just look at one measure...interest payments to taxpayers on our current national debt. In 2005, taxpayers paid $352 Billion in interest payments alone on the national debt. That's for one year. We'll pay more than that this year. We've paid close to that every year under Bush...maybe less in the early years, I'm not going to take the time to look it up now.

So, one year (2005) of interest payments on the debt under George Bush and the Republican controlled legislation is $132 Billion more than the entire cost of 9-11 and Katrina combined.

So, now that we have the real story, and not a headline-bite, we can continue the discussion.
 

The Sponge

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 24, 2006
17,263
97
0
Sponge,

I hate to have to argue with you, but you are not making good points here. Halliburton is a trusted government contractor when it comes to rebuilding infrastructure. I don't know the specifics of what impact repealing the Davis-Bacon Act would have had down there.

As far as Iraq goes, it's ludicrous to think that we are over there primarily to gain a source of cheap overseas labor. There are plenty of other friendlier places in the world we could have gone for that.

ncik you can argue all you want with me but try not to just print something and make me think its correct. How many times a has halliburton been caught making a llot more than they should have? How about the sixty minute peice about the ghost workers on the payroll. How did they become this great company that gets all these no bid contracts? This never happen under Clinton. They were open bidded contracts.
You say its ludicrous about the billions of our tax payer money possible being in some greddy contractors hand? There was 15 Billion missing at one point. 15 billion!!! Do these other freindly places you talk about sit on top of OIL.
The specific about the Davis Bacon Act are this. You pay a prevailing wage that is set in that area. This keeps out cheap worthless workers who work three days get a little money in there pockets and than take off two weeks. What Bush did even before the last rain drop fell was to put a hold on it. What does he care what the wage is down there? OH because its Cheneys boys who he sent down there. the ones who make billions, overcharge, and than pay piss to the workers. They will take anyone from any country. They don't give two dicks who it is as long as they will work for a peanut. Another thing that is humerous is that Halliburton has all these asbestos suits. Could you believe that in the pigeons state of the union speech he mention this. He said our country was being bog down by these asbestos suit and it is hurting the economy. What a freaking joke that was. He forgot to mention who it was really bogging down.
 

The Sponge

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 24, 2006
17,263
97
0
nick you still didn't point out to me about these great moves Bush pulled. Id love to here just one of them. The best move i think he makes is that he goes on Vacation so it hinders him a bit to sign a bill. Oh wait that is right they woke him up once to get involved in that Terry Shiavo farce.

as for you dog your the type of guy that i can throw out fact after fact and it just wont sink in.

Hammer I read a few of your post and thought you needed a little help brother. Why i signed up. One thing you might clear up for me tho is all those lies Michael Moore told about the Bush Family, why didn't they sue him? They call the far left looney. Any clear thinking person who knows this corrupt family is just sick of it. Maybe the left is looney because they are tired of all the lying.
 

The Sponge

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 24, 2006
17,263
97
0
Here nick here is some ludicrous news i dug up from about a year ago.
By Rupert Cornwell / Independent

The Iraq war has produced many winners and many losers. And one small but significant winner is a certain William "Bucky" Bush, brother of one president and uncle to the current occupant of the White House.

The good fortune of Uncle Bucky, as he is known within America's ruling family, has been to hold a seat on the board of Engineered Support Systems Incorporated (ESSI), a St Louis-based company that has flourished mightily as a military contractor to the Pentagon.

Last month, ESSI shares hit a record $60.39 (?31.64) apiece * more or less exactly the moment the presidential uncle chose to sell 8,438 options worth around $450,000, according to obligatory reports filed with the US Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and disclosed by the Los Angeles Times yesterday. William Bush denies that his presence on the board has had anything to do with the company's success in boosting expected revenues to an estimated $1bn in 2005, in good part reflecting no-bid contracts relating to the war.

Noting that he joined it in 2000, before his nephew was elected, "Bucky" Bush says he has not lobbied anyone in Washington to send contracts ESSI's way. "I don't make any calls to the 202 [Washington, DC] area code," he told the LA Times.

In fact Mr Bush, aged 66 and 14 years the junior of his brother, the first president George Bush, has long been a prominent member of the St Louis business community and was state chairman in Missouri for the 2004 Bush/Cheney re-election campaign. "Having a Bush doesn't hurt," Dan Kreher, a senior ESSI executive, says.

The company has supplied a variety of equipment to the US military effort in Iraq, including a $49m contract to refurbish military trailers and an $18m deal to provide communications services to the Coalition Provisional Authority, which ran post-Saddam Iraq until June last year. In 2003, ESSI was awarded contracts for equipment to help search for, and protect US soldiers from, Iraq's chemical and biological weapons, which turned out to have been a figment of the imagination of the Bush administration.

But some of that government business is now under scrutiny. The Pentagon has announced that $158m worth of contracts won by ESSI in 2002, including work on a new air cargo loading device called Tunner, is being reviewed by its inspector general for suspected "anomalies". ESSI responds that the inquiry is a routine examination of work awarded on a sole-source basis. It would have "no effect" on the company, Gerald Potthoff, its president, told stock analysts this week.

Mr Bush says he cashed in the options because they were about to expire, and not because he was unhappy with the company. He told the LA Times that he would have preferred the company was not involved in Iraq, "but unfortunately we live in a troubled world".

The episode is another illustration of how the Iraq conflict, costing the US $5bn a month, is proving a bonanza for some. A prime example is Halliburton, the oil services group once chaired by Dick Cheney, the Vice-President, whose Iraq operations have been plagued by alleged contract overcharging and other issues.

Some Democrats complain that the Bushes and their associates have been given a virtual free pass on business affairs * unlike President Bill Clinton, who was hounded for years over his involvement in Whitewater, a modest Arkansas real estate venture, in which he and his wife Hillary actually lost money.
 

Terryray

Say Parlay
Forum Member
Dec 6, 2001
9,602
1,573
113
Kansas City area for who knows how long....
one of my favorites! Economic statistics!

one of my favorites! Economic statistics!

Ok, that NYT piece few weeks back touting a 2% decline in median hourly wages since 2003, with chart prepared by the Economic Policy Institute (a liberal think tank with an agenda) is very misleading. (oh, surprises every day!)...woulda been a bit more balanced if NYT had other data and economists views on this central question than just the EPI...

"hourly wages" doesn't include benefits, and no gov't agency I know tracks these data. No idea how EPI cooked up the numbers.

but The Bureau of Labor Statistics does publish "real" hourly wages for non-farm workers (i.e, includes benefits---the benefit increases lotta workers in recent years have been taking in greater proportion to thier pay increases.)



this chart shows the BLS stats:

real_compensation.gif



Thus, worker's compensation has gone up, higher than inflation, every couple year span since the Ford Administration (flat for a few after '79 recession), and current administration is the best since then! the data for first two quarters of 2006 is best of all (4.7 and 0.4---not on this chart)




for federal tax paid by top 1%, 5%, 10% and 25% you see here that their tax burden has increased for nearly all since Bush tax cuts of 2001---look at Table 6. Total Income Tax Shares, 1980-2003 (% of federal income tax paid by each group)..... notice the bottom half of wage earners in US pay only 3.46% of the federal tax burden---the day is not long off where 50% of wage earners will pay no federal income tax but continue to get gobs of federal benefits.
 
Last edited:

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,485
161
63
Bowling Green Ky
Chad this is only graph I could find on poverty and if there has been any change it is negigble for most part-- I am sure you can find more measurable examples if you take isolated rather than overall picture like your fellow did--
"The number of people living in high-poverty neighborhoods?where the poverty rate is 40 percent or higher?declined by a dramatic 24 percent"
--and also I am reluctant to much faith in any writer who does not list his sources for verification--if you know what I mean--and especially when writer works for Brookings Institution--I somehow think there might be some reason to shed favorable light on last admin--if you know what I mean ;)

The Brookings Institution is a think tank, based in Washington, D.C., in the United States.

The organization is currently headed by Strobe Talbott, a former Clinton administration appointee in the U.S. State Department


Chart in link/you might want to note "recession"
on chart also.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0831/p02s01-usec.html

===========================
 

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
For reference, and verification, the Brookings Study was done using the accepted US Standards for measuring poverty standards, established by The Social Security Administration, and numbers readily available to the general public from The Census Bureau.

So, the Institute got their info directly from the Federal Government. So, if you can spin that and continue to deflect attention from the message that you don't agree with, fine.

I note in your link one important distinction that you fail to mention when saying there was a "negligible" rise in poverty under Bush, that it was the fourth consecutive yearly rise in poverty under Bush. So, taken together, it has a bigger measure. Also noting from your link that Bush has just about gotten the poverty level back up to pre-Clinton days. You guys must be thrilled with that.
 

Terryray

Say Parlay
Forum Member
Dec 6, 2001
9,602
1,573
113
Kansas City area for who knows how long....
now poverty statistics...

now poverty statistics...

Poverty statistics are so filled with problems that few economists spend much time with them.

Here's a good overview of the problems from a mainstream perspective written by gal at Brookings Institute who worked for the Carter Admin.


and pasted below is a fine opinion piece outta Washington Post by dude at a conservative think tank, but I don't see him commiting howlers in data interpretation like that NYT piece mentioned above.




Why Poverty Doesn't Rate

By Nicholas Eberstadt
Sunday, September 3, 2006


The Census Bureau last week released its latest estimate of the U.S. poverty rate -- the country's most important official statistic on domestic want and deprivation. The figure was sobering, signaling short-run stagnation and deterioration over the past generation. The 2005 poverty rate of 12.6 percent barely budged from the previous year's number, and was substantially higher than the 11.1 percent level registered back in 1973, the lowest on record. No less disturbing, the official measure indicates that a greater portion of families and children live in poverty in America today than three decades ago.

The results seem to suggest a prolonged failure of national policies to address poverty in the United States. However, the problem here lies less with actual living conditions than with the flawed and misleading poverty measure itself. The index that Washington has long used to assess progress in the struggle against poverty is a broken compass, and its misdirection has worsened steadily over time. Hurricane Katrina's destruction of the Gulf Coast one year ago revealed in devastating fashion the poverty and hardships that many people in the United States still endure. Unfortunately, the official poverty rate is utterly incapable of tracking material deprivation in the United States with any accuracy.

The nation's poverty indicator first emerged in 1965, when the Johnson administration launched the War on Poverty. This then-novel measure determined a family's poverty status by comparing its annual income to a federal "poverty threshold" -- set at about three times the cost of a nutritionally adequate food budget and tailored to a family's size. The percentage of people falling below that threshold was deemed the "poverty rate." The threshold is adjusted each year to take into account changing prices.

But much more than prices has changed since 1965 -- and the government's poverty measures have failed to adapt to and recognize the new conditions. With more access to credit, greater income swings from year to year, and improved nutrition, housing and health care, the life of America's poor is radically different today. Unless the nation's basic poverty indicators take into account such new conditions, any efforts to effectively redress poverty in America are bound to fail.

To understand the problems with the official poverty rate, compare the America of 1973 to the America of 2001. In 2001, the country's per capita income was far higher than in 1973 -- according to the Census Bureau, roughly 60 percent higher -- and unemployment rates were lower. In 2001, only one in six adults lacked a high-school diploma; in 1973, two-fifths had not finished high school. And government anti-poverty spending was more than twice as high in 2001 as in 1973.

So, in a richer, more fully employed and better educated nation with a bigger safety net, shouldn't the poverty rate be lower? Wrong. The way the official rate is calculated, the fraction of Americans living below the poverty line was higher in 2001 (11.7 percent) than in 1973 (11.1 percent). For some reason, our official statisticians insist that America's best year for combating poverty -- ever -- was 1973. Go figure.

Indeed, since 1973, the official poverty rate has usually moved in the opposite, counterintuitive direction from other common-sense indicators of progress and poverty. When the rate of high school dropouts among America's adult population falls, the official poverty rate rises. When anti-poverty spending increases, so does poverty. And even when per capita income in the United States goes up, official poverty somehow increases, too.

Obviously, the official poverty rate isn't reflecting shifting living conditions in the United States. A wealth of evidence shows that those who are counted as poor today have dramatically higher living standards than their counterparts in the 1960s, when the poverty rate was originally devised:

Food and nutrition: In the early 1960s, the poorest fifth of American families were forced to devote nearly 30 percent of their expenditures to buying food; by 2004, the proportion was down to one-sixth of spending. Undernourishment and hunger were common among the most vulnerable elements of society 40 years ago; today, by contrast, obesity is the main nutritional problem facing adult Americans, rich and poor alike. And even children considered poor by official standards are better nourished today than in the 1960s. As recently as 1973, about 8 percent of low-income children surveyed by the Centers for Disease Control were judged underweight; by 2004 the figure had dropped below 5 percent. The prevalence of anemia among poorer American children likewise fell by more than half during those same years.

Housing: In 2001, only about 6 percent of the country's poor households lived in "crowded" dwellings (homes with more than one inhabitant per room), compared with more than 25 percent in 1970, according to the Census Bureau. Today's poor households are more likely to have telephone service and television sets than even non-poor households in 1970; they are much more likely to have central air conditioning than the typical American home of 1980, and almost as likely to have a dishwasher. Moreover, according to a Department of Energy survey in 2001, most poverty households have microwaves, VCRs or DVDs, and cable television -- conveniences unavailable in even the most affluent homes at the time the poverty rate measure was first released.

Autos and motor travel : In 1973, a majority of the households in the bottom fifth of income earners did not own a car. By 2003, nearly three-fourths of all poverty households had a car, truck or van, and a rising fraction owned two or more such vehicles.

Health care: For the affluent and the disadvantaged alike, life expectancy in America has risen significantly since the nation's poverty measures were first developed. The CDC's National Center for Health Statistics has found a broad improvement in national health conditions over the past four decades. Since 1965, for example, the U.S. infant mortality rate (the risk of death in the year after birth) has dropped by more than 70 percent. And regardless of the availability of health insurance, access to medical treatment has risen markedly for poorer Americans: Children in poor families are more likely today to have an annual medical visit or checkup with a doctor than even non-poor children did just 20 years ago.

Why does the official poverty rate fail to quantify the steady improvement in the living standards of America's poor? The answer lies in a simple mistake built into the poverty measure -- one that reflects a misunderstanding of how Americans live, spend and consume. Contradicting both economic theory and readily observable facts, the poverty rate assumes that a household's annual spending cannot, by definition, exceed its annual income.

Of course, this is not true, and economists have won Nobel prizes explaining why spending can far exceed income, particularly in advanced societies. For instance, when families are experiencing an unusually bad year, they may spend more than they earn if they see better prospects in the future. Similarly, a young worker may go into debt if she anticipates increases in her pay or benefits. Living standards, in other words, are linked to purchasing power -- and a family's purchasing power is not limited to its annual earnings.

Among low-income households in the United States, the gap between reported income and reported spending has widened gradually since the 1960s and now has taken on chasm-like dimensions. In the early 1960s, the poorest quarter of U.S. households spent 12 percent more than their annual incomes. In 1973, spending by America's poorest fifth surpassed their income by almost 40 percent. And in 2004, spending by the poorest fifth of American families exceeded income by a whopping 95 percent; in effect, spending was nearly twice as much as income.

These patterns might be due to easy access to credit, with many consumers maxing out their credit cards or engaging in other unsustainable borrowing. (Curiously, however, recent credit surveys suggest that the net worth of poorer Americans has been rising, not falling.)

Another important factor could be the increasing instability of American incomes. Scholars such as Jacob Hacker at Yale University and Robert Moffitt at Johns Hopkins University have noted that the income of American families is likely to bounce around much more today than it did three decades ago -- whether due to greater global competition, increasing rewards for education or other factors. Intensified swings, in turn, mean that more households may, in any given year, earn low incomes and be temporarily classified as living in poverty. But they continue to spend as they did before, anticipating that their incomes will bounce back. Such oscillations also mean that the incomes reported by families in annual surveys -- the backbone for the official poverty estimate -- are a steadily less accurate indicator of true living standards.

These criticisms of the official U.S. poverty rate should not be confused with indifference to the plight of America's disadvantaged and poor. Indeed, the opposite is true. In the richest society humanity has ever known, material deprivation still afflicts too many Americans. We cannot expect to make progress, however, without adequate and accurate information. Advocates of social and economic justice in the United States should be in the front ranks of those demanding more accurate assessments of U.S. poverty. Without a clearer sense of where we stand, how we got here and where we are headed, most initiatives aimed at reducing poverty in the United States will be needlessly ineffective.


Nicholas Eberstadt is the Henry Wendt Scholar in political economy at the American Enterprise Institute.
 

djv

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 4, 2000
13,817
17
0
I don't believe as I said above how anyone can understand poverty levels and unemployment. And I don't believe many pay attention unless it's happening to them. What everyone can measure is out of pocket expenses. It's oh so easy to see how things have gone up. For sure health care ware many companies are putting more cost for it on there employees. Gas is easier once $1.59. And markets that in over 5 years cant get back to there highs. Problem there is many folks have there retirement tied up in IRA's and 401k. They see companies with wild profits numbers. And these super tax breaks. But there accounts are lucky to have even gained 3%. If there pros and can play and watch ever day they may have done alittle better. But there busting there chops at work trying to make a living to pay for the higher cost of living. Things could be worse. But to call them super or doing real good is a stretch to.
 

Nick Douglas

Registered User
Forum Member
Oct 31, 2000
3,688
15
0
48
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Terryray,

You are quoting that same type of misleading information about taxes that is frequently used by conservatives.

You say, "notice the bottom half of wage earners in US pay only 3.46% of the federal tax burden." That is utterly deceiving. You are ignoring the fact that the top half of wage earners make OVER 85% of all wages. The bottom half of wage earners contribute almost no taxes because THEY MAKE ALMOST NO MONEY.

Take a look at your own information that you posted. Did you notice, for example, that when the Conservatives took control of congress (1994), the bottom 50% work wage earners made only 8% more than the top 1% of wage earners (still an atrocious gap). In 2003, the bottom 50% of wage earners made 20% LESS than the top 1% of wage earners.

The bottom line here is that conservative policies help people who are blessed with the natural talent to work hard and they hurt the vast majority of workers. Raw economic figures will usually look better under conservative rule but it will also usually lead to greater societal problems because of the trends I identified above.
 

Terryray

Say Parlay
Forum Member
Dec 6, 2001
9,602
1,573
113
Kansas City area for who knows how long....
Hey Nick

Hey Nick

misleading information

Misleading information? I want all to know it!

the IRS stats here demonstrate that the highest income earners pay a strikingly disproportionate share of all income taxes. And it has been
getting worse the last 20 years. in the last year for which we have data:

The top 1 percent of taxpayers earned 16.77% of all adjusted gross income, but paid 34.27% of all federal personal income taxes.

The top 10 percent of taxpayers earned 42.36% of all adjusted gross income, but paid 65.84% of income taxes.

On the other hand, the bottom 50 percent of taxpayers earned 13.99% of all adjusted gross income, but paid only 3.46% of income taxes.

Most Americans are surprised when confronted with these facts, and I would bet most agree with me----in keeping with the American ideal of
equal treatment before the law----that those earning 13.99% should pay more than 3.46%.....you don't see this at all, given your strongly held belief in that pernicious and dangerous idea of progressive taxation.


they hurt the vast majority of workers


The economic pie is not fixed, it grows over time----for the richer and the poorer. It is not a zero sum game, with winners and losers.

There is no (nada, zero, 0) correlation in the postulate that if the rich get a lot richer, then there is less left over for the poor.


moreover, in comparing the top 1%, 5%, 10%, etc, from year to year is very misleading because they are not the same people.
some are, but many aren't. There is tremendous vertical up and down movement between income groups in the US economy.
Immigration, divorce, population changes and such stuff change it.

The famous Michigan logitudinal study of income dynamics have charted this since 1968, and it hasn't gotten any worse.


Here's an excellent paper on how immigrants have been moving up by a Prof. at Berkely. (caution pdf file)


let's look at Berkely profs Saez and Piketty's paper on income inequality in the US (considered by liberals and conservative economists to be the best
on this, or many other things, out there). Income for top 1% shot up in 20s, flat in 30s, grew nicely in 40s, declined in 50s---up and down with the economy. So not surprising it is up both 80s and 90s, declined a bit since then....it is a complex event, with up and downs and different folks moving in and out---can't just
say rich keep earning bunches and keep it to themselves, and very hard to figure out any possible policy that might effectively redistribute this.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,485
161
63
Bowling Green Ky
:toast: Terryray

--however must warn you that you might be put on shitlist for confusing them with facts. :)

I think the poverty article might change some opinions(well done)--but you will NEVER budge them on taxes.

In the simplest terms if John pays 50,000 in taxes and Joe 5,000 and each get 10% tax break for some reason many think john is getting over because he saves 5,000 and Joe only 500.:shrug:
 

djv

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 4, 2000
13,817
17
0
Tax breaks again are hard to measure. Lets be real those with big bucks know how to hire the right folks and can get off light. The middle class it's a little harder. Funny thing is Clinton gave lower brackets a tax break raised it on the top end. And everyone made lots even the rich did very well.
Never before have we tried to give such big breaks as Bush has. Then deside to expand a war from one, to two countries with ideas of more to come.
I think Katrina might have taught him a lesson and that is why he is now only using threats to Iran And N Korea. THE Bank only goes so far. AS for all the fancy numbers above. None address GAS Health and Higher interest rates. And A market that after the crash goes side ways. Even after WWII and Pearl Harbor did markets stay low so long. In fact not even during Nam, or Korea.
 

The Sponge

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 24, 2006
17,263
97
0
dj when u give money to middle class and poor people instead of rich people that is how u create jobs. When you give someone living on the edge money they spend it. When millions spend it you need to hire help because everyone is spending it. You give a guy with 100 million dollars another 5 million dollars they just bank it and nobody wins. there might be a handful of people who are rich that might want to use it to grow their company but that is it a handful.
 
Bet on MyBookie
Top