FDC - just let it go my man. How could you and marine possibly have any insight whatsoever being in the military:shrug: :mj07:
See you at the next outing:toast:
WTF Is Going On In This Country?
- Thread starter RollTide72
- Start date
FDC - just let it go my man. How could you and marine possibly have any insight whatsoever being in the military:shrug: :mj07:
See you at the next outing:toast:
:lol:
I've read books. Lots and lots of books.
and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
While being in the military may have something to do with it, I think what military folks get around gun control issues is being comfortable around weapons. Holding them, being around them on a daily basis - you learn real quick that the gun isn't going to do anything that you don't tell it to do.
Sort of like the dudes that shoot themselves in the arm or leg while they were "cleaning the gun"
It is physically impossible to actually shoot yourself or someone near you while you are cleaning your gun unless you are an absolute freaking moron that doesn't deserve to be able to live independently.
Here's a study done by Harvard. I didn't read this whole thread, just the last two pages but I think this answers a lot of questions about gun control and how other countries have done with and without it.
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
For the record, I don't own a gun. I've only shot a gun once in my life and didn't feel comfortable being around one. I don't however think gun control is the answer. Reminds me a lot of our government saying we can't buy 32oz sodas at the store in order to control our weight and health problems.
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
For the record, I don't own a gun. I've only shot a gun once in my life and didn't feel comfortable being around one. I don't however think gun control is the answer. Reminds me a lot of our government saying we can't buy 32oz sodas at the store in order to control our weight and health problems.
since you like Harvard studies,
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html
Airportis, the reason I posted this is to advance knowledge on the subject. It's not "that I like Harvard studies." I could care less either way about guns. I just want the best answer. Looking at other countries and their gun control laws show us a lot. I don't think it's about guns or no guns as you can see by the study. It's a much deeper problem than that and until we start looking for those causes then we'll never know the answers.
if more guns = more homicide, as shown by the study I linked, wouldn't the most logical answer be to find a way to bring down the number of guns which should in theory result in the number of homicides also coming down?
Airportis, did you read thru each study that was posted in that link or did you just post the link? I read the whole PDF I posted and it answers the questions. The benefactor in two of the studies you posted was the Joyce Foundation. That in and of itself says a lot.
I think that you are so against guns that you aren't willing to study to find out if that's the real answer to our problems. If we had no guns in this country I wouldn't care just like I won't care if they keep selling them. The only reason I would care one way or the other is if we know that it's truely the answer.
As we all know many studies are biased and they're looking for certain answers. The state of Viriginias violent crime has gone much lower even though gun sales have increased dramatically. Is it because of more guns or is it because there's been a slowing of violent crimes in the state for years?
The study I posted wasn't funded by anyone and that makes me think it was a bit more honeset in it's assertion that there's no correlation between gun ownership and violent crimes. As you can see from other countries stats there's more to the story.
IMO there are so many factors it's hard to see the answer. A general decay in morality, stress, medications and more than anything a lack of good parenting and family life for kids. We can look at guns and violent crimes but I think if someone conducted a study they would find a direct correlation between kids with a good family life vs. those without. Now how would one determine a good faimly life?
Sorry to ramble!
if you dont wish to believe the research, that is fine because I am sure a lot wont. there are arguments for both sides and facts and stats can be bent and twisted and formed any way you want to make your case and point.
comparing laws of other countries is no good. every country is different with its own cultural history. there is no other country like ours so slapping some other countries laws on ours would most likely not work. people are also different in different places of the world. laws should be tailored and customized and made unique.
if the number of homicides is higher in areas with a higher concentration of firearms what would simple math tell you a solution would be?
these tragedies always seem to happen with guns. why? because they are effective killing machines. that is the only thing they are good for. why do these things need to be mixed so heavily in a society full of people becoming angrier and angrier?
if things stay the way they are this type of thing will continue to happen. it isnt just going to stop. it will probably get worse. so what is the final straw?
Hmmmm, I have heard that somewhere before.......hmmmmmmmmm........where was that..........I remember because you said disagreed with that poster............man, it's right on the tip of my tongue..............hmmmm...
It is right to give FDC thanks and praise.
Praise be to FDC.
back in the 30`s you could buy sub machineguns at sears...up until around `68 you could buy mortars through the mail..and i don`t recall any crazies lobbing mortar rounds into schools.....
it`s a modern societal problem,imo...and .if you`re really serious about addressing the problem you`ll have to address the cause,not just the method...fact is,we live in a culture that`s saturated with violence abd violent images....
hollywood and video games don`t promote a culture of violence?....
of course they do...so let`s do it right...lets ban every war movie...every western...every sci-fi movie...every cops and robbers flick that even alludes to guns or violence...some people obviously can`t handle it,so take it away from everybody...just to be on the safe side....
anybody think hollywood `ll go for that?..they`ll sacrifice the second amendment and take the inanimate object,but they won`t sacrifice their first amendment rights for the good of society......no sir
while we`re at it,lets ban all violent sports...people are getting too many concussions...it`s a bad influence on those that are too sensitive for such things...these players obviously can`t make decisions for themselves....so,lets do it for them...after all,we know best....
matter of fact,lets give total control of the internet over to the u.n. so we can be sure that all these skulls full of mush can`t be corrupted...everything government controlled so the producing ,sharing,distributing of any of these materials can be controlled by political bureaucrats....
oh,and big gulps,too.....
you want to live like that?.....i don`t......it`s a slippery slope.....
don`t believe me?....take it from your buddy spongey....
" Those who give up liberty for security deserve neither" - Benjamin Franklin
it`s a modern societal problem,imo...and .if you`re really serious about addressing the problem you`ll have to address the cause,not just the method...fact is,we live in a culture that`s saturated with violence abd violent images....
hollywood and video games don`t promote a culture of violence?....
of course they do...so let`s do it right...lets ban every war movie...every western...every sci-fi movie...every cops and robbers flick that even alludes to guns or violence...some people obviously can`t handle it,so take it away from everybody...just to be on the safe side....
anybody think hollywood `ll go for that?..they`ll sacrifice the second amendment and take the inanimate object,but they won`t sacrifice their first amendment rights for the good of society......no sir
while we`re at it,lets ban all violent sports...people are getting too many concussions...it`s a bad influence on those that are too sensitive for such things...these players obviously can`t make decisions for themselves....so,lets do it for them...after all,we know best....
matter of fact,lets give total control of the internet over to the u.n. so we can be sure that all these skulls full of mush can`t be corrupted...everything government controlled so the producing ,sharing,distributing of any of these materials can be controlled by political bureaucrats....
oh,and big gulps,too.....
you want to live like that?.....i don`t......it`s a slippery slope.....
don`t believe me?....take it from your buddy spongey....
" Those who give up liberty for security deserve neither" - Benjamin Franklin
If outlawing guns was the answer then I would be 100% for it. I have two kids, 10 and 9. I wouldn't want this to happen at their school. I don't think taking away guns takes away the crazies though and there's no shortage of ways to cause these kind of events.
Again, until you solve the issue at hand your're not going to lower the chances of these events.
One could argue that with the increased media attention, the internet and social media that we've seen an increase in these terrible events.
In the 90s we had a higher gun ownership rate then what it is now but we didn't have these events happening. So it wasn't a problem with guns then. Something changed and it wasn't gun ownership.
Again, until you solve the issue at hand your're not going to lower the chances of these events.
One could argue that with the increased media attention, the internet and social media that we've seen an increase in these terrible events.
In the 90s we had a higher gun ownership rate then what it is now but we didn't have these events happening. So it wasn't a problem with guns then. Something changed and it wasn't gun ownership.
What a horrific and tragic event.
It is beyond comprehension.
I have not read all the pages of this thread but wanted to add my thoughts.
1. If you are looking for facts regarding gun control, go here: http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
Very good site.
Here are a few facts that were pulled from that site:
In 2007, there were 613 fatal firearm accidents in the United States, constituting 0.5% of 123,706 fatal accidents that year.
These emergency room visits for non-fatal firearm accidents resulted in 5,045 hospitalizations, constituting 0.4% of 1.4 million non-fatal accident hospitalizations that year.
During the years in which the D.C. handgun ban and trigger lock law was in effect, the Washington, D.C. murder rate averaged 73% higher than it was at the outset of the law, while the U.S. murder rate averaged 11% lower.
The homicide rate in England and Wales has averaged 52% higher since the outset of the 1968 gun control law and 15% higher since the outset of the 1997 handgun ban.
Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the Chicago murder rate has averaged 17% lower than it was before the law took effect, while the U.S. murder rate has averaged 25% lower.
Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the percentage of Chicago murders committed with handguns has averaged about 40% higher than it was before the law took effect.
Guns are an easy scapegoat here.
Muslims and Islam were an easy scapegoat after 9-11, too.
IMHO, the US Govt overreached with the Patriot Act and the Iraq and Afghan war after that.
What will be the response on guns?
Have we looked at the shooter?
Mentally disabled young white male; on pyscho-tropic drugs; history of anger and violence towards his mother; from a broken home.
Perhaps how we handle the mentally ill and gun safety should be an issue as well?
Perhaps Big Pharma needs to look at what the issues / side effects of SSRI's really are?
Perhaps schools need an armed security officer with a trained canine? Pay for it with a national lottery? Be a good way to create a million jobs.
Guns definitely played a role here. But there are many other variables as well.
Has violence in movies, TV and games has desensitized the US population to it?
Did the lack of family structure in this man's life contribute to his act of violence?
I don't know.
Reports said he tried to obtain a rifle a week earlier and was refused. The gun law apparently worked.
Unfortunately, he was able to get his mother's guns. Crazy and guns do not mix and it is sad that his mother did not have better control of that situation.
Good luck with this. I am still struggling with the images of the smiling children.
When the elderly die, we lose the past. When children die, we lose the future.
I wish them all peace and wonder how those families will put their lives back together.
It is beyond comprehension.
I have not read all the pages of this thread but wanted to add my thoughts.
1. If you are looking for facts regarding gun control, go here: http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
Very good site.
Here are a few facts that were pulled from that site:
In 2007, there were 613 fatal firearm accidents in the United States, constituting 0.5% of 123,706 fatal accidents that year.
These emergency room visits for non-fatal firearm accidents resulted in 5,045 hospitalizations, constituting 0.4% of 1.4 million non-fatal accident hospitalizations that year.
During the years in which the D.C. handgun ban and trigger lock law was in effect, the Washington, D.C. murder rate averaged 73% higher than it was at the outset of the law, while the U.S. murder rate averaged 11% lower.
The homicide rate in England and Wales has averaged 52% higher since the outset of the 1968 gun control law and 15% higher since the outset of the 1997 handgun ban.
Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the Chicago murder rate has averaged 17% lower than it was before the law took effect, while the U.S. murder rate has averaged 25% lower.
Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the percentage of Chicago murders committed with handguns has averaged about 40% higher than it was before the law took effect.
Guns are an easy scapegoat here.
Muslims and Islam were an easy scapegoat after 9-11, too.
IMHO, the US Govt overreached with the Patriot Act and the Iraq and Afghan war after that.
What will be the response on guns?
Have we looked at the shooter?
Mentally disabled young white male; on pyscho-tropic drugs; history of anger and violence towards his mother; from a broken home.
Perhaps how we handle the mentally ill and gun safety should be an issue as well?
Perhaps Big Pharma needs to look at what the issues / side effects of SSRI's really are?
Perhaps schools need an armed security officer with a trained canine? Pay for it with a national lottery? Be a good way to create a million jobs.
Guns definitely played a role here. But there are many other variables as well.
Has violence in movies, TV and games has desensitized the US population to it?
Did the lack of family structure in this man's life contribute to his act of violence?
I don't know.
Reports said he tried to obtain a rifle a week earlier and was refused. The gun law apparently worked.
Unfortunately, he was able to get his mother's guns. Crazy and guns do not mix and it is sad that his mother did not have better control of that situation.
Good luck with this. I am still struggling with the images of the smiling children.
When the elderly die, we lose the past. When children die, we lose the future.
I wish them all peace and wonder how those families will put their lives back together.
The Boys said:
Yes sir. Finally someone brings up the hypocrisy of our leaders. Start wars in every country, but disarm our citizens and preach to them about non-violence.
Everywhere I turn, support the troops, ha. Obama is ordering woman and kids killed every day and no one bats an eye. We are desensitized to this despicable violence in the name of security. Fear mongering. The us govt is the worst of psychopath murderers. Sorry, it's true.
This was a sick messed up tragedy. If it didn't make everyone so mad, we would we in worse trouble. I do wish that it also made everyone think about how bad murder is no matter what country the victims live in.
Yeah, let's let our omni-incompetent government - fails in every single area it attempts, from war to mail to social security to money to Amtrak to etc etc - let's let them and their dirty harrys and speckled marys be the only ones carrying guns. Good will come of that.
Normal people shouldn't be deprived of their best chance to defend themselves and their families because of the emotional problems of hateful bigots like airportis.
We don't want it. The USA has a first and second amendment - Canada has neither. In fact it burns books and throws people in jail for expressing opinions.
Yeah, but you're not taking into account that we're the good guys. That means everything we do is good. By definition, almost. Right?
However, New York magazine's Gabriel Sherman reported on Monday that top Fox News executives explicitly barred people from discussing the topic. According to Sherman, the edict came from David Clark, the man in charge of weekend coverage, as well as Michael Clemente, the powerful vice president for news, who backed Clark's ruling that it was too soon to talk about guns. "We were expressly forbidden from discussing gun control," one source said.
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follow the money
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follow the money
Sunday
I learned about the massacre at Sandy Hook elementary school while we were setting up at Fox News to tape Cavuto on Business. The news was so horrible that we all felt as if we had lost our legs and could no longer stand. It was such horrible news that it simply turned the world upside down.
It still is that kind of news, and it?s incredibly depressing about the nature of humanity. And my wife and I pray all day for the souls of those dear children and for the peace, if there ever will be peace, of their families? and for the souls of the adults and the peace of those who knew and loved them.
As usual, the smartest comment about the whole subject came from John R. Coyne, Jr. ?There is evil in the world. It?s beyond mental illness, beyond gun control. It is evil.?
The killer got his weapons from his mother, who apparently had bought them legally and registered them. That tells us something about what anti-gun laws would do, although maybe the mother should not have had them either. In this world, a killer devil can kill his mother and steal her guns to kill six year olds. That?s what some humans are and I am not sure what laws will stop them.
Second, I read that the killer was socially awkward (putting it mildly) and ?reserved.? I know what that often means. He spent much of his miserable life playing shoot ?em up video games on line or on machines. I see a troubled young man doing that often.
Up close and personal.
In these games, the ?player? just spends his whole day attempting to exercise and exorcize his loneliness and low self-esteem by shooting imaginary creatures and creating damage all day long.
At a certain point, just ?killing? on the console blurs into doing it in real life. ?Killing? is just what the kid does all his life. How much of a stretch is it for him to shoot into a movie theater or a political gathering or a kindergarten in ?real life? if his life is so pitiful that he does not know what?s real and what is not? If you are looking for a villain, try shoot ?em up games.
Third, what motivates ?great? deeds? So that a man?s name will not be forgotten and he will be sung about even after his death, goes the ancient saying. That?s what you get if you slaughter 26 totally innocent people at a grade school. If you want another villain, try the media itself, which has now given Adam Lanza fame beyond what he could have dreamt of. It is impossible to blame the media, but evil men like Adam Lanza have gamed the system to perfection.
Fifth, why are these killers always men? What is it that we teach our young men in this world that makes them think it?s a mark of manliness to kill the unarmed and innocent? Whatever it is, it?s disgusting. It?s not manly to kill any unarmed human. It?s miserable, crawling cowardice.
Finally, a comment that will enrage the beautiful people. The whole world is rightly overwrought and crazed with grief over the murder of twenty totally innocent and blameless souls last Friday in Newtown. It was and is a catastrophe for the ages.
But Mahmoud Ahmadinejad promises to kill every Jew in Israel and then in the whole world, including babies? and he had his defenders, even at the Democratic National Convention. And it was daily life in Nazi-occupied Europe from 1939 to 1941 to kill thousands of Jewish children every day. But powerful, intelligent men and women in this country defended Hitler, spoke up for him and for keeping America from even sending arms to Britain when England stood alone. What are we to make of that? No one even mentions, no one even knows about the horrendous Armenian genocide by the Turks in 1915, when well over a million of the most talented people on the planet were wantonly murdered ? and the world has still not officially called it genocide ? and Hitler explicitly said it was a model for him. Who today even talks of the purposeful mass starvation of millions of beautiful Ukrainian children by Stalin? The U.S. did not say one word about it as a government. The U.S. still will not confront Turkey seriously about the Armenian children.
Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge killed roughly one third of all of its people, including children, from 1974 to about 1977 ? and it was U.S. policy to avoid doing anything to stop them ? because they were opposed to the North Vietnamese Communists and Communist Vietnam, which had just taken over South Vietnam ? our ally. What can we say to that? We cheered the deposing of the President ? Richard Nixon ? who would have stopped the Khmer Rouge from taking power. There is plenty of Cambodian blood on our hands. There is plenty of blood of all kinds on our hands, especially of the most innocent and blameless among us? real babies, truly innocent.
God help us. Man is made of such crooked stuff that it is impossible to set him straight, said a famous philosopher. God help us.
..................................................................
I learned about the massacre at Sandy Hook elementary school while we were setting up at Fox News to tape Cavuto on Business. The news was so horrible that we all felt as if we had lost our legs and could no longer stand. It was such horrible news that it simply turned the world upside down.
It still is that kind of news, and it?s incredibly depressing about the nature of humanity. And my wife and I pray all day for the souls of those dear children and for the peace, if there ever will be peace, of their families? and for the souls of the adults and the peace of those who knew and loved them.
As usual, the smartest comment about the whole subject came from John R. Coyne, Jr. ?There is evil in the world. It?s beyond mental illness, beyond gun control. It is evil.?
The killer got his weapons from his mother, who apparently had bought them legally and registered them. That tells us something about what anti-gun laws would do, although maybe the mother should not have had them either. In this world, a killer devil can kill his mother and steal her guns to kill six year olds. That?s what some humans are and I am not sure what laws will stop them.
Second, I read that the killer was socially awkward (putting it mildly) and ?reserved.? I know what that often means. He spent much of his miserable life playing shoot ?em up video games on line or on machines. I see a troubled young man doing that often.
Up close and personal.
In these games, the ?player? just spends his whole day attempting to exercise and exorcize his loneliness and low self-esteem by shooting imaginary creatures and creating damage all day long.
At a certain point, just ?killing? on the console blurs into doing it in real life. ?Killing? is just what the kid does all his life. How much of a stretch is it for him to shoot into a movie theater or a political gathering or a kindergarten in ?real life? if his life is so pitiful that he does not know what?s real and what is not? If you are looking for a villain, try shoot ?em up games.
Third, what motivates ?great? deeds? So that a man?s name will not be forgotten and he will be sung about even after his death, goes the ancient saying. That?s what you get if you slaughter 26 totally innocent people at a grade school. If you want another villain, try the media itself, which has now given Adam Lanza fame beyond what he could have dreamt of. It is impossible to blame the media, but evil men like Adam Lanza have gamed the system to perfection.
Fifth, why are these killers always men? What is it that we teach our young men in this world that makes them think it?s a mark of manliness to kill the unarmed and innocent? Whatever it is, it?s disgusting. It?s not manly to kill any unarmed human. It?s miserable, crawling cowardice.
Finally, a comment that will enrage the beautiful people. The whole world is rightly overwrought and crazed with grief over the murder of twenty totally innocent and blameless souls last Friday in Newtown. It was and is a catastrophe for the ages.
But Mahmoud Ahmadinejad promises to kill every Jew in Israel and then in the whole world, including babies? and he had his defenders, even at the Democratic National Convention. And it was daily life in Nazi-occupied Europe from 1939 to 1941 to kill thousands of Jewish children every day. But powerful, intelligent men and women in this country defended Hitler, spoke up for him and for keeping America from even sending arms to Britain when England stood alone. What are we to make of that? No one even mentions, no one even knows about the horrendous Armenian genocide by the Turks in 1915, when well over a million of the most talented people on the planet were wantonly murdered ? and the world has still not officially called it genocide ? and Hitler explicitly said it was a model for him. Who today even talks of the purposeful mass starvation of millions of beautiful Ukrainian children by Stalin? The U.S. did not say one word about it as a government. The U.S. still will not confront Turkey seriously about the Armenian children.
Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge killed roughly one third of all of its people, including children, from 1974 to about 1977 ? and it was U.S. policy to avoid doing anything to stop them ? because they were opposed to the North Vietnamese Communists and Communist Vietnam, which had just taken over South Vietnam ? our ally. What can we say to that? We cheered the deposing of the President ? Richard Nixon ? who would have stopped the Khmer Rouge from taking power. There is plenty of Cambodian blood on our hands. There is plenty of blood of all kinds on our hands, especially of the most innocent and blameless among us? real babies, truly innocent.
God help us. Man is made of such crooked stuff that it is impossible to set him straight, said a famous philosopher. God help us.
..................................................................
For those whose argument is the following: reduction of guns/stricter gun laws will not prevent this because people will still be able to get a hold of guns...that is pure speculation.
The only legitimate comparison would be to look at countries with strict gun laws and compare their murder rates. From what I've read the data can be conflicting. The fact remains the only true comparison could be to look at places with strict control laws and evaluate gun usage and compare it to us.
A good analogy is the legalization of marijuana. There are perceived negatives: legalizing it is bad because it will be a gateway drug to other drugs, it will lead to more people driving under the influence, etc....it's all conjecture. Opinion. Want a legitimate way to look at the likely affect of legalization? Look at countries where it's legal (Amsterdam) and see how their population handles it.
I'm not saying that gun control is the answer. I guess what I'm saying is that those who oppose strict gun control laws, their reasons for their opposition are not founded in anything factual. It's pure speculation. What we do have, however, is the ability to look at countries with those laws in place. That's the true litmus.
The only legitimate comparison would be to look at countries with strict gun laws and compare their murder rates. From what I've read the data can be conflicting. The fact remains the only true comparison could be to look at places with strict control laws and evaluate gun usage and compare it to us.
A good analogy is the legalization of marijuana. There are perceived negatives: legalizing it is bad because it will be a gateway drug to other drugs, it will lead to more people driving under the influence, etc....it's all conjecture. Opinion. Want a legitimate way to look at the likely affect of legalization? Look at countries where it's legal (Amsterdam) and see how their population handles it.
I'm not saying that gun control is the answer. I guess what I'm saying is that those who oppose strict gun control laws, their reasons for their opposition are not founded in anything factual. It's pure speculation. What we do have, however, is the ability to look at countries with those laws in place. That's the true litmus.
