GW, Kosar, AR182 - I respect all of you and I hope you feel the same way. However, going back to my post of a couple of days ago, it has been all over the news that death by starvation is in fact an acceptable and painless way to die, especially in the case of someone like Terry Schiavo. The LA TImes had a huge article on this same topic Tuesday and included a step by step process on what happens when one dehydrates and is not fed. It was clear from the article that my assertion was correct. Remember, we are not talking about someone like me, fully conscious (or so it seems) and hungry and thirsty - we are talking about someone who has been in a vegetative state for 15 years. We are not talking about someone's 80 year old relative that is still conscious and has the mental capacity to know that he needs water to survive. Terry does not compare to people in this situation. You are giving her life characteristics that she does not possess. If you would like me to reference the articles I would be happy to do so.
schiavo case...
- Thread starter gardenweasel
- Start date
not 24 court cases....they have reviewed greer`s decision 24 times.........greer is the only one to examine the full record..which is closed.....and some think this has become personal with him...
that`s why the congress requested a "denovo" or new hearing....so "fresh eyes" can look at all the issues....
and there are prominent doctors on both sides that will testify contrarily to one another.....
unfortunately,only the doctor`s that agree with schiavo and greer seem to carry any weight....and other judges,like whittemore,hate to shit on their brethren...
again i ask....."would anyone here want their estranged son-in-law making a life and death decision for your daughter?.....based on heresay?..there`s no documentation"......
honestly,ferdville...the media is in schiavo`s corner....they are only presenting schiavo`s poinyt of view....
lets see pictures of how humanely terry is dying.....you think that will happen?...
i`ll gladly reprint what happens to people that are dehydrated to death.....
that`s why the congress requested a "denovo" or new hearing....so "fresh eyes" can look at all the issues....
and there are prominent doctors on both sides that will testify contrarily to one another.....
unfortunately,only the doctor`s that agree with schiavo and greer seem to carry any weight....and other judges,like whittemore,hate to shit on their brethren...
again i ask....."would anyone here want their estranged son-in-law making a life and death decision for your daughter?.....based on heresay?..there`s no documentation"......
honestly,ferdville...the media is in schiavo`s corner....they are only presenting schiavo`s poinyt of view....
lets see pictures of how humanely terry is dying.....you think that will happen?...
i`ll gladly reprint what happens to people that are dehydrated to death.....
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There's an Italian model named TERRY Shialvo. I wish we'd give her equal media time.
http://www.superhotweb.net/foto modelle/Schiavo Terry.html
http://www.superhotweb.net/foto modelle/Schiavo Terry.html
and i`ll try one more time....
"" if this woman feels no pain...has no self awareness...is not suffering.....why not let the parents take her...assume all responsibility for her care""....
you do see her smile when her mother speaks to her...we all saw that...
surely if she feels nothing,starving to death is more grisly than letting her parents care for her...
why not step aside...let people that truly care for her have her....and go on with your life and new family....
she`s not brain dead...she`s brain damaged...
and why not allow an autopsy when she dies....to put to rest all supposition and rumor?...
just because you are a prick and hate her family?....to twist the knife so to speak?....
"" if this woman feels no pain...has no self awareness...is not suffering.....why not let the parents take her...assume all responsibility for her care""....
you do see her smile when her mother speaks to her...we all saw that...
surely if she feels nothing,starving to death is more grisly than letting her parents care for her...
why not step aside...let people that truly care for her have her....and go on with your life and new family....
she`s not brain dead...she`s brain damaged...
and why not allow an autopsy when she dies....to put to rest all supposition and rumor?...
just because you are a prick and hate her family?....to twist the knife so to speak?....
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this is pointless...she`ll die....schiavo will get HIS WISHES granted.....
i just wish that she was afforded the same due process that convicted murdrers get...that get appeals on technicalities because the courts are more worried about covering their asses than innocent people...
i just wish they could give her an injection ...give her the humane death that is afforded serial killers and child molesters.....rather than have her die of thirst slowly over the course of a week or two.....not a pretty death..i don`t care what anybody says....
i really wish we could glimpse into that hospice room....like hearing about terrorists lopping an innocent`s head off......and then seeing the terrorism first hand...it`s not the same thing
i dare anyone here...any healthy person...to go a week without food or water...and come back and report what they felt.....
i just pray that she goes very soon.....
let the celebration begin...
i just wish that she was afforded the same due process that convicted murdrers get...that get appeals on technicalities because the courts are more worried about covering their asses than innocent people...
i just wish they could give her an injection ...give her the humane death that is afforded serial killers and child molesters.....rather than have her die of thirst slowly over the course of a week or two.....not a pretty death..i don`t care what anybody says....
i really wish we could glimpse into that hospice room....like hearing about terrorists lopping an innocent`s head off......and then seeing the terrorism first hand...it`s not the same thing
i dare anyone here...any healthy person...to go a week without food or water...and come back and report what they felt.....
i just pray that she goes very soon.....
let the celebration begin...
If the parents and not the taxpayers were paying the bill I would whole heartedly support their right to care for her. But as callous as it sounds, there is not enough tax money in the world to take care of everyone who is sick and debilitated. Until we become a fully socialist country, these are the kinds of decisions that have to be made. It is a tragedy to be sure.
ferdville,
i certainly respect you & your points of view of the various discussions we have had in the forum. in fact i wish you would post more often.....
however, i disagree that starving a person to death is humane.....as i previously stated i witnessed my father-in-law die by starvation......it was very heartbreaking listening to him cry because he was thirsty.......it would have been more humane, imo to have him die by injection......it's painless & quick.
btw, what happened to you on super bowl sunday....you were missed.
i certainly respect you & your points of view of the various discussions we have had in the forum. in fact i wish you would post more often.....
however, i disagree that starving a person to death is humane.....as i previously stated i witnessed my father-in-law die by starvation......it was very heartbreaking listening to him cry because he was thirsty.......it would have been more humane, imo to have him die by injection......it's painless & quick.
btw, what happened to you on super bowl sunday....you were missed.
I admit that I am basing my opinion solely on articles such as the following. I imagine that like anything else there are two sides to the story. I feel horrible about missing the party - I heard that it was a great one. Had a hot streak going at the blackjack tables and one thing led to another. There is no way I will miss another one.
General Health
Schiavo death would be 'peaceful,' experts say
Removal of feeding tube would end her life in about three weeksThe Associated Press
Updated: 6:49 p.m. ET March 22, 2005NEW YORK - If Terri Schiavo dies from the removal of her feeding tube, her passing should be peaceful, experts say.
After all, she is in a persistent vegetative state without conscious awareness, they noted.
But studies show that even patients who can speak and who have chosen to stop eating and drinking generally don?t complain of thirst or hunger, said Dr. Russell Portenoy, chair of palliative care at the Beth Israel Medical Center in New York.
?It?s as if the body has a protective mechanism at the end of life, such that loss of appetite and loss of thirst precede the dying process,? he said.
Death can take a widely variable amount of time but generally arrives within three weeks, Portenoy said.
Schiavo?s feeding tube was removed on Friday. It has been removed twice before and then re-inserted because of legal pressure, but Portenoy and Yale expert Dr. Sherwin Nuland said those interruptions in feeding should not have caused harm.
Generally, death from prolonged lack of food and water is due to dehydration, said Nuland, author of the book, ?How We Die.?
Dehydration leads to kidney failure. When the kidneys shut down, levels of certain substances in the blood rise. The person slips into a coma. At some point the biochemical changes in the blood become severe enough to impair the electrical system that controls the functioning of the heart, and the heart stops beating.
?It?s usually quite a peaceful death,? Portenoy said. ?The person generally looks as if he or she is drifting off to sleep, and then dies.?
? 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
General Health
Schiavo death would be 'peaceful,' experts say
Removal of feeding tube would end her life in about three weeksThe Associated Press
Updated: 6:49 p.m. ET March 22, 2005NEW YORK - If Terri Schiavo dies from the removal of her feeding tube, her passing should be peaceful, experts say.
After all, she is in a persistent vegetative state without conscious awareness, they noted.
But studies show that even patients who can speak and who have chosen to stop eating and drinking generally don?t complain of thirst or hunger, said Dr. Russell Portenoy, chair of palliative care at the Beth Israel Medical Center in New York.
?It?s as if the body has a protective mechanism at the end of life, such that loss of appetite and loss of thirst precede the dying process,? he said.
Death can take a widely variable amount of time but generally arrives within three weeks, Portenoy said.
Schiavo?s feeding tube was removed on Friday. It has been removed twice before and then re-inserted because of legal pressure, but Portenoy and Yale expert Dr. Sherwin Nuland said those interruptions in feeding should not have caused harm.
Generally, death from prolonged lack of food and water is due to dehydration, said Nuland, author of the book, ?How We Die.?
Dehydration leads to kidney failure. When the kidneys shut down, levels of certain substances in the blood rise. The person slips into a coma. At some point the biochemical changes in the blood become severe enough to impair the electrical system that controls the functioning of the heart, and the heart stops beating.
?It?s usually quite a peaceful death,? Portenoy said. ?The person generally looks as if he or she is drifting off to sleep, and then dies.?
? 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
ferd.... no offense intended....
just upsets me that everyone says no euthanasia...when in actuality,this is euthanasia by omission...the result takes much longer...but is every bit as inevitable....
strange that i take a stance like this on ms. schiavo when i thought that dr kevorkian was actually on the right track by helping people die as quickly and painlessly as possible....i really think that the man was right...if i wanted it over,i wish i had access to a dr kevorkian...
the court says people have the right to not want feeding tubes or respirators...but they can`t be allowed to die quickly....it has to go on for weeks...you can medicate them for pain...dope them up......give them medication to slow a speeding heart rate caused by pain.....but not give them enough to go to sleep and never wake up.....
that`s barbaric,imo...
that`s my main problem with this...and the assignment of the wrong guardian,imo..........
starving and dehydrating her will kill her assuredly...so put her out of her misery...please...
starving and dehydrating someone you determined must die over a period of weeks.......vs giving them a needle?....what would you guys choose for a loved one?
if dehydration is so humane....so peaceful...,why not provide it to death row inmates?...
our judicial system is utterly insane...the moral compass of this society is whacked...
just upsets me that everyone says no euthanasia...when in actuality,this is euthanasia by omission...the result takes much longer...but is every bit as inevitable....
strange that i take a stance like this on ms. schiavo when i thought that dr kevorkian was actually on the right track by helping people die as quickly and painlessly as possible....i really think that the man was right...if i wanted it over,i wish i had access to a dr kevorkian...
the court says people have the right to not want feeding tubes or respirators...but they can`t be allowed to die quickly....it has to go on for weeks...you can medicate them for pain...dope them up......give them medication to slow a speeding heart rate caused by pain.....but not give them enough to go to sleep and never wake up.....
that`s barbaric,imo...
that`s my main problem with this...and the assignment of the wrong guardian,imo..........
starving and dehydrating her will kill her assuredly...so put her out of her misery...please...
starving and dehydrating someone you determined must die over a period of weeks.......vs giving them a needle?....what would you guys choose for a loved one?
if dehydration is so humane....so peaceful...,why not provide it to death row inmates?...
our judicial system is utterly insane...the moral compass of this society is whacked...
gardenweasel said:
GARDEN YOU ARE ONE SICK MF. SHE IS NOT HEALTHY. SHE IS ALIVE ONLY BY A FEEDING TUBE SURGICALLY IMPLANTED. WHY WOULD ANYONE HEALTHY DAMAGE THEIR OWN BODY? DONT YOU UNDERSTAND THE BODY THAT ARE LEFT ARE A RESULT OF THE STEM OF THE BRAIN WHICH CONTROLS SLEEP BREATHING EYE MOVEMENT AND BREATHING. NOTHING ELSE. SHE CANT MOVE HER ARM OR LEGS. SHE CANT SWALLOW. SHE IS A VEGETABLE. HOLY MF WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE.
ferdville said:
AHMEN ! FINALLY SOMEONE POSTS THIS SO THE UNEDUCATED RIGHT WINGERS CAN READ !!! F'IN READ THIS AND SHUT THE F UP UNLESS YOUR A NEUROSURGEON OR AN EXPERT LIKE MANY THINK THEY ARE HERE.
I predict they (whichever legal options are left, as they seem to be neverending) will not let Schiavo die. The Fundamentalist troops have rallied and they have the feds and Florida on their side. So this is almost a mathematical certainty.
And that's fine by me. I don't care. Sounds like the ex is a jerk - so whatever frustrates him is probably a good thing. Too bad it's so damn expensive though.
The Fundamentalists better the hell not whine about state's rights vs federal after this though. They're getting so many do-overs and special hearings it's ridiculous.
And that's fine by me. I don't care. Sounds like the ex is a jerk - so whatever frustrates him is probably a good thing. Too bad it's so damn expensive though.
The Fundamentalists better the hell not whine about state's rights vs federal after this though. They're getting so many do-overs and special hearings it's ridiculous.
no "fundamentalist" has ever argued for states rights concerning the "fundamental" constitutional protection of life
tussking said:
I AM SURE THIS CASE HAS PLENTY OF NEUROSURGEONS ON IT
AFTER THAT 10TH OPERATION, THINGS JUST DIDNT GET BETTER DID THEY
HOW CAN YOU KEEP DEMONSTRATING YOUR FOOLISHNESS TO THIS DEGREE?
ferdville said:
this is all speculative
no one really knows how one perceives, feels, or if they can think
we do know that the brain does have capacity to regenerate pathways....10-15 years ago this was was utter nonsense....
what we don't know about this situation is very scary and dont let some pompous doctor on his high horse tell you differently
Also this is pathetic reason
the statement is this:
1. Most patients do not feel hunger or thirst as they are dying.
the conclusion is then drawn -- or hinted at, whatever: If you take away food and water, you will not feel it while you die
Horrible line of reason and this is yellow journalism at its best.
the statement is this:
1. Most patients do not feel hunger or thirst as they are dying.
the conclusion is then drawn -- or hinted at, whatever: If you take away food and water, you will not feel it while you die
Horrible line of reason and this is yellow journalism at its best.
ferdville said:
This is another horrible crux of the argument
It doesn't matter how we would feel
It matters how the patient in question feels
And all that we have is hearsay from the husband
The court for some reason, allowed this hearsay when they usually do not
Wonder why OJ didn't say "Nicole told me that Ron killed her". Would that be allowable in court?
And also the "consciousness" is directly in question over the past few years. She may have been conscious according to different independent accounts. And perhaps Mr. Schiavo took away this consciousness.
DR.FREEZE JUDGING BY YOUR POSTING ON A GAMBLING FORUM GOD HELP ANYONE WHO COMES IN CONTACT WITH YOU AS A PATIENT. IF I WAS A PATIENT AND YOU WERE MY DOCTOR I WOULD SH*T THE BED AND SCREAM FOR ANOTHER ONE.
tussking, I know you're a stupid idiot, and a name-changer, but let me ask you this. How can she still be alive with no intake for a week? There are fluids getting into her someway. I'll assume she doesn't have an IV. That means she has to be getting it orally.
Freeze, wouldn't you agree that she would have been dead already had she not had some sort of intake? My understanding is that even a healthy adult can go no more than 4 days without fluid intake before kidney failure and then total organ failure kill them. She couldn't be alive still if she had no fluid intake since Friday, could she?
Freeze, wouldn't you agree that she would have been dead already had she not had some sort of intake? My understanding is that even a healthy adult can go no more than 4 days without fluid intake before kidney failure and then total organ failure kill them. She couldn't be alive still if she had no fluid intake since Friday, could she?
