Why Won't God Heal Amputees?

[blgstocks]

Gmroz, I am sorry but your answer for where Humans come from is very irrational to me. You say we eveolved from a lessor form of life, yet where does that life come from, you know as well as I do that if we keep playing this game you will be saying "i dont know where this dust came from" just like every athiest(scientist or not). So you have faith that there is no God and yet you cannot even answer how we got here. To say we evoled blah blah blah, well where did it all begin and you will say what? "I dont know". I can at least give you an answer to that question. An answer that is much more rational than the IRRATIONAL statement of saying, science is all there is, even though science has no clue of how we got here(where it all began). You think my answer is that a supernatural being created us is wrong because it does not fit in with science, even though science has no answer for the question itself. Doesnt that bother you that you are putting so much faith into something that cant answer the basic question of where we came from? Doesnt it both you that the more science finds out about life, the more unrealistic random design seems? The more science discovers how intricate a cell is and how it works the more infinite the number is getting on the odds of it all coming into place like that.

Anyways about your comments about the bible verses being divinely inspiried let me repeat. those are not God's words, those are the rules written up by the pharisees to prevent their people from getting anywhere near actually breaking God's commands. That is why Jesus(God's words) tears down many of the Pharisees rules and he goes after them more than anyone else in the New Testament.
I know the First part about the amputees didnt make sense to you because you are not getting the point I am making about God making it blatantly obvious to us so that we would no longer have any choice but to believe in Him. He does this because He wants us to have free will(same reason He allows us to Sin) and the reason why he wants us to have free will is because He loves us. We would be robots if we could not sin, we would neevr feel joy or anger or anything, we would neevr feel anything at all, because we would have no choice.
That is the same reason why God doesnt miraculously heal amputees, because it would be blatantly obvious. It is not obvious when He heals someone with cancer because you and me are having this discussion(if it were obvious you would believe in Him as well)

And you ask me is God more interested in You having faith in Him and therefore truly believing in Him and His teachings and therefore following His teachings because you know they are the best way you can live your life OR He is more interested in you trying to live your life how YOU believe it should be lived and based on YOUR interpretation of good? Well of course I choose the first one. No matter how many good deeds we all fall short of the glory of Christ. And as Christians if we believe by doing good deeds we are to get into Heaven we are taking away the sacrifice Christ made on the cross. (What good is His sacrifice If we can get into heaven with good deeds alone)

I am glad we are talking about this and honestly gmroz if I saw you at a bar in Vegas we would get along great probably. And I don't want you for one second to think that I have any ill-will towards you because you disagree with my beliefs. I really like talking to knowledgable people that have views other than my own. Having said that,
I think you have hostility towards the idea of Christianity. By saying things like "Its a joke" and "it hinders are progress as humans" You obviously seem hostile to the ideas of Christianity.
And about the part where you say I just think this way because I was told to be a Christian since I was young. I studied for 4 years of debating Christianity with relativism,athiesm,nihilism, many other view points and religions. So these ideas that you assume aren't mine (and therefore not valid, like yours seem to you) are ideas that I have thought long and hard about.

And to go back to your first response to me about "is it rational to believe in Mary with Son of God..." and you claim it is irrational. I say it is rational to believe that IF there IS a supernatural being(God) who is all powerful and created the natural rules that we live by and can bend them at his liesure, that it is perfectly rational to believe that He can bend them and have a virgin give birth to His Son. Of course what we are debating about is the "IF" there is a supernatural being part. Which seems to be the only rational answer to the question of how we came into existence. Once science answers where we came into existence, then I will change my mind. But science only deals with in terms of "natural" and you or any other scientist CANT answer that one fundamental(and I do mean it should be absolutely fundamental to your faith(which gmroz your faith happens to be science) question which is where did existence start and how?

To golferboy, I dont know why God had dinosaurs, same reason He made every other animal that went extinct or not. Really it makes no difference to my faith in God. And it is a very good question about why do "good" people who live "good" lives not make it to Heaven. Let me start off by saying you or I don't know who will be in Heaven. But "good" people are still sinners and we all fall short of the glory of God. We are all fallen, and God is merciful enough to bring us His Son and die on the cross so that all us sinners have to do is to believe that He is the Son of God and that He died for our Sins.

 

[smurphy]

hey blgstocks - how come you are a hokies fan? You from that area?

my folks are from sw virginia and went to va tech. i lived in blacksburg as a kid. i'll always be a hokie guy over any other div 1 school, even though i'll probably never leave the west coast.

 

[buddy]

The reason you believe in the Jesus story is because it has been drilled into your skull since you were little.

This is not true.

gmroz22,

Let's suppose your alone and Christ appeared to you. You even had a chat. Just like George Burns appeared to John Denver in "Oh, God".

I fully realize this is somewhat hypothetical (available evidence being millions of Christians around the world who believe Jesus Christ is as real as the nose on your face...yours truly included), but if this happened, how would you try to explain this experience to someone else? Or would you even try?

Do you think you have the grammatical skills and power of persuasion to have another person seriously pay attention to what you were saying?

You're an intelligent person. Your reason and logic is sound. In the final analysis, do you think you might say to yourself, "The gig's up. He's real". Or would you try to suppress the encounter?

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

This is not true.

gmroz22,

Let's suppose your alone and Christ appeared to you. You even had a chat. Just like George Burns appeared to John Denver in "Oh, God".

I fully realize this is somewhat hypothetical (available evidence being millions of Christians around the world who believe Jesus Christ is as real as the nose on your face...yours truly included), but if this happened, how would you try to explain this experience to someone else? Or would you even try?

Do you think you have the grammatical skills and power of persuasion to have another person seriously pay attention to what you were saying?

You're an intelligent person. Your reason and logic is sound. In the final analysis, do you think you might say to yourself, "The gig's up. He's real". Or would you try to suppress the encounter?

Buddy, I'll make a deal with you. If Jesus stops by the apartment, I'll come back and tell all you guys I was wrong and Jesus is Lord and all the other good stuff. The chances of that happening are zero, but I will humor you. In fact, I would try to explain this to others. Would I say "the gig is up, he's real?", yes I would.

This is a wonderful hypothetical, but my question is: are you saying that millions of Christians have Jesus visit them? By the way, I am referring to the Burns/Denver type of encounter...not the kind of encounter where people "see" Jesus in anything good that happens.

What would it take to shake your faith?

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

Gmroz, I am sorry but your answer for where Humans come from is very irrational to me. You say we eveolved from a lessor form of life, yet where does that life come from, you know as well as I do that if we keep playing this game you will be saying "i dont know where this dust came from" just like every athiest(scientist or not). So you have faith that there is no God and yet you cannot even answer how we got here. To say we evoled blah blah blah, well where did it all begin and you will say what? "I dont know". I can at least give you an answer to that question. An answer that is much more rational than the IRRATIONAL statement of saying, science is all there is, even though science has no clue of how we got here(where it all began). You think my answer is that a supernatural being created us is wrong because it does not fit in with science, even though science has no answer for the question itself. Doesnt that bother you that you are putting so much faith into something that cant answer the basic question of where we came from? Doesnt it both you that the more science finds out about life, the more unrealistic random design seems? The more science discovers how intricate a cell is and how it works the more infinite the number is getting on the odds of it all coming into place like that.

Why will you not accept my answer of evolution? Do you accept any part of the Theory of Evolution and the Theory of Natural Selection? When scientists point out that 99% of all species that have ever roamed, swam, or crawled around earth are now extinct, do you disregard it as nonsense?

Do I know how life began on earth, nope. Do I believe that it probably started out from a single (or few) organism that evolved and evolved and evolved.....yes, I do.

The idea of a superatural being creating us is crazy in light of the PROOF that man has evolved from apes. Evidence overrides religious doctrine in the rational mind, and that is why I say that creationism and ID are irrational.

If your belief is that all of the universe could not have just happened and that someone had to create it, who created him? Certainly, he could not have just happened.

-Gary

 

[gardenweasel]

more gays are attacked b/c of their sexual prefrence in the usa than any other country..garden weasel.why do i have a feeling your a frail looking person thats afraid to be in the same room with an african american,or for that matter anybody looking diffrent than your moronic arse.
you are the tru meaning of the word faggggot.

i have no problem with islam....or muslims....as long as they behave themselves...stop trying to murder non-believers and infidels,and adapt to whatever country you migrate to....

when in rome...you know?...

if the whole migratory dynamic were turned upside down.....and westerners were fleeing to the middle east in droves for education or a better quality of life,i would expect them to adapt to the culture....


but it`s not this country`s policy.......or any religion`s doctrine(that i can think of,with maybe one exception)to kill homosexuals.....

omar......i could be gay.....maybe that`s why i don`t beat "faggots"(nice turn of phrase...anee coulter?) because of their sexual proclivities.....and i don`t beat women for showing their faces in public.....

and i`ve never arranged a marriage for a 12-14 year old girl....

actually, i`ve never even murdered a female family member for dishonoring my family.....like for being raped...or having sex outside of marriage....


as for being frail looking?..and being "afraid" of people of color.....i don`t think so.......i seldom,if ever mention it on here,but i`m an ex-amateur boxer....and in camden n.j.,white boxers weren`t exactly growing on trees....

i guess i could be gay,though.......

if i were, i`d be very thankful that i live in a democratic,progressive western country....

 

[buddy]

are you saying that millions of Christians have Jesus visit them? By the way, I am referring to the Burns/Denver type of encounter..

No, I'm not saying that.

I'm saying "what if?"

Has that type of encounter ever happened with me? No. Have I ever experienced anything close to that.....................Uhhhhhh, how can I put this? Well, I'll just say it's a personal thing I don't want to expose on an internet forum ("C'mon buddy, spill the beans. / Nope. Sorry guys. Some things are better left unsaid.")

But have I ever talked with others who've had experiences similar to mine........yes / several. And it seems for them, like me too, it was too powerful an experience to be ignored.

It's as if, for a long while, you can't think of anything else. And then, if that isn't enough, it all comes into play. The bible, the mystery of the Godhead, etc. If one accepts Christ, one accepts the entire package.

Some can accept Christ simply on faith. Others, like myself, need three points, a poem, fireworks and Fox news coverage (fair + balanced).

In the end, it's what all Christians have been saying all along....it's a personal relationship with Jesus Christ who is the Saviour of all mankind.

Sound like a myth?........yes

Is it a myth?............no

 

[airportis]

i have no problem with islam....or muslims....as long as they behave themselves...stop trying to murder non-believers and infidels,and adapt to whatever country you migrate to....

when in rome...you know?...

if the whole migratory dynamic were turned upside down.....and westerners were fleeing to the middle east in droves for education or a better quality of life,i would expect them to adapt to the culture....


but it`s not this country`s policy.......or any religion`s doctrine(that i can think of,with maybe one exception)to kill homosexuals.....

omar......i could be gay.....maybe that`s why i don`t beat "faggots"(nice turn of phrase...anee coulter?) because of their sexual proclivities.....and i don`t beat women for showing their faces in public.....

and i`ve never arranged a marriage for a 12-14 year old girl....

actually, i`ve never even murdered a female family member for dishonoring my family.....like for being raped...or having sex outside of marriage....


frail looking?...not really....i seldom,if ever mention it on here,but i`m an ex-amateur boxer....

i guess i could be gay,though.......

if i were, i`d be very thankful that i live in a democratic,progressive western country....

 

[gardenweasel]

nice...very clever...islam on the attack...

gmro....we`re discussing western religions like christianity.....

do you think that islam is bogus?.....or is that different....or are you afraid to touch that one?....

is the hidden imam gonna see his shadow and pop out of his well?....

 

[gardenweasel]

gmro....talk to me,buddy....

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

That is the same reason why God doesnt miraculously heal amputees, because it would be blatantly obvious. It is not obvious when He heals someone with cancer because you and me are having this discussion(if it were obvious you would believe in Him as well)

And you ask me is God more interested in You having faith in Him and therefore truly believing in Him and His teachings and therefore following His teachings because you know they are the best way you can live your life OR He is more interested in you trying to live your life how YOU believe it should be lived and based on YOUR interpretation of good? Well of course I choose the first one. No matter how many good deeds we all fall short of the glory of Christ. And as Christians if we believe by doing good deeds we are to get into Heaven we are taking away the sacrifice Christ made on the cross. (What good is His sacrifice If we can get into heaven with good deeds alone)

I am glad we are talking about this and honestly gmroz if I saw you at a bar in Vegas we would get along great probably. And I don't want you for one second to think that I have any ill-will towards you because you disagree with my beliefs. I really like talking to knowledgable people that have views other than my own. Having said that,
I think you have hostility towards the idea of Christianity. By saying things like "Its a joke" and "it hinders are progress as humans" You obviously seem hostile to the ideas of Christianity.
And about the part where you say I just think this way because I was told to be a Christian since I was young. I studied for 4 years of debating Christianity with relativism,athiesm,nihilism, many other view points and religions. So these ideas that you assume aren't mine (and therefore not valid, like yours seem to you) are ideas that I have thought long and hard about.

And to go back to your first response to me about "is it rational to believe in Mary with Son of God..." and you claim it is irrational. I say it is rational to believe that IF there IS a supernatural being(God) who is all powerful and created the natural rules that we live by and can bend them at his liesure, that it is perfectly rational to believe that He can bend them and have a virgin give birth to His Son. Of course what we are debating about is the "IF" there is a supernatural being part. Which seems to be the only rational answer to the question of how we came into existence. Once science answers where we came into existence, then I will change my mind. But science only deals with in terms of "natural" and you or any other scientist CANT answer that one fundamental(and I do mean it should be absolutely fundamental to your faith(which gmroz your faith happens to be science) question which is where did existence start and how?

God won't heal amputees because it would be blatantly obvious that He exists? This is nothing more than your way of rationalizing holes in your belief system.

The second paragraph insinuates that Jesus's teachings are the best and that the reason to do good deeds is to get into Heaven. That's insanity. Why can't you do good deeds because you are a good person and because you want to help others?

The Virgin Mary part paraphrased me leaving out the most important part: God inseminated a virgin and she gave birth. Even if you believe in the supernatural, this is a stretch.

My faith is not science. I don't worship science. I base my beliefs on what the evidence shows. If I lived in the year 200AD, I would probably believe in the Adam & Eve story because there was no evidence to support evolution and it wasn't even a concept yet. I would have been stuck with the Old Testament. However, I live in the year 2007. Science has come along way and has been able to answer a lot of questions. Given the choice of the Theory of Evolution (evidence supports it) and the Book of Genesis, I choose the former.

 

[gardenweasel]

gmro....we`re discussing western religions like christianity.....

do you think that islam is bogus?.....or is that different....or are you afraid to touch that one?....

...

bro...throw me a bone...

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

No, I'm not saying that.

I'm saying "what if?"

Has that type of encounter ever happened with me? No. Have I ever experienced anything close to that.....................Uhhhhhh, how can I put this? Well, I'll just say it's a personal thing I don't want to expose on an internet forum ("C'mon buddy, spill the beans. / Nope. Sorry guys. Some things are better left unsaid.")

But have I ever talked with others who've had experiences similar to mine........yes / several. And it seems for them, like me too, it was too powerful an experience to be ignored.

It's as if, for a long while, you can't think of anything else. And then, if that isn't enough, it all comes into play. The bible, the mystery of the Godhead, etc. If one accepts Christ, one accepts the entire package.

Some can accept Christ simply on faith. Others, like myself, need three points, a poem, fireworks and Fox news coverage (fair + balanced).

In the end, it's what all Christians have been saying all along....it's a personal relationship with Jesus Christ who is the Saviour of all mankind.

Sound like a myth?........yes

Is it a myth?............no

Buddy, I want to start with something that I think is important: People are "blaming" you for starting the religious debate. While you may have started the religious talk, don't think that I am posting my beliefs solely in response to you. I've been harboring these beliefs for awhile, but have never had a place to discuss/debate them.

"What if?" isn't good enough for me to believe in God. When I grew up, it was good enough, but it's not now.

The part about "if you accept Christ" you accept the whole package is the problem (IMO). Christianity needs to get with the times. Dropping its link to the Bible would be a step in the right direction, although "blasphemous" to the hard liners. I guess I am advocating that the cherry-pickers take what they like, and discard the rest.

The relationship with Jesus thing isn't something I really want to dive into just yet. It just seems hard to imagine being in a one-way relationship with someone that ignores you.

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

bro...throw me a bone...

No problem.

Islam is just as irrational as Christianity, and every other religion.

Imagine that I tell you this story:

A man was sitting in a cave minding his own business.
A very bright flash of light appeared.
A voice spoke out one word: "Read!" The man felt like he was being squeezed to death. This happened several times.
Then the man asked, "What should I read?"
The voice said, "Read in the name of your Lord who created humans from a clinging [zygote]. Read for your Lord is the most generous. He taught people by the pen what they didn't know before."
The man ran home to his wife.
While running home, he saw the huge face of an angel in the sky. The angel told the man that he was to be the messenger of God. The angel also identified himself as Gabriel.
At home that night, the angel appeared to the man in his dreams.
Gabriel appeared to the man over and over again. Sometimes it was in dreams, sometimes during the day as "revelations in his heart," sometimes preceded by a painful ringing in his ears (and then the verses would flow from Gabriel right out of the man), and sometimes Gabriel would appear in the flesh and speak. Scribes wrote down everything the man said.
Then, one night about 11 years after the first encounter with Gabriel, Gabriel appeared to the man with a magical horse. The man got on the horse, and the horse took him to Jerusalem. Then the winged horse took the man up to the seven layers of heaven. The man was able to actually see heaven and meet and talk with people there. Then Gabriel brought the man back to earth.
The man proved that he had actually been to Jerusalem on the winged horse by accurately answering questions about buildings and landmarks there.
The man continued receiving the revelations from Gabriel for 23 years, and then they stopped. All of the revelations were recorded by the scribes in a book which we still have today.
[Source: "Understanding Islam" by Yahiya Emerick, Alpha press, 2002]

If you were secluded from religion for the first 20 years of your life, would this be a believable story? Probably not. None of them would. When you talk about magic horses, holy ghosts, etc., most rational thinkers will lose interest.....unless it is drilled into your skull as "The Truth" from the day you're born.

 

[gardenweasel]

i have no problem with your opinion....at least you`re consistent....

you`re entitled to your opinion....my point was that i believe that religious beliefs are basically a form of moral doctrine...and if not harmful, should not be censored by those that don`t agree....

if they aren`t totally at odds with societal beliefs and mores,fine and dandy...

and as we know,there is a real division in this country regarding abortion,gay marriage,euthanasia,capital punishment, etc....

imo,the judeo-christian ethic...the basis for our moral code......has been a good thing....

i only hope that your atheism doesn`t mask an "anything goes' agenda.........that would eventually lead to anarchy....

 

[buddy]

gmroz22,

Please understand you are not responding to a scholar let alone a biblical one.

I'm certain you could stumble across SOMEONE within the realm of Christianity who could probably make a better case for our cause than I could.

But just because I can't doesn't mean the questions you have can't be answered intelligently.

Imo, there are some very bright people who have made a conscious choice to carry the cross. And I'm not just referring to church attendees. I'm talking about committment to the service of the Lord. Seven day a week type committment. Hospitals, jails, homeless shelters, youth centers, shut ins, etc. Seven days a week....prayer, bible in hand, out the door.

To be honest, I've often wondered what kind of intellectual struggle they went through before they made their decision. I mean these are people who could be living a life of leisure but chose not to. And they see everything everyone else sees. From in and out, they see Christianity warts and all...but press on, undaunted. Why?

What is it about their relationship with Christ that keeps them moving forward despite the ridicule and sarcasm?

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

i have no problem with your opinion....at least you`re consistent....

you`re entitled to your opinion....my point was that i believe that religious beliefs are basically a form of moral doctrine...and if not harmful, should not be censored by those that don`t agree....

if they aren`t totally at odds with societal beliefs and mores,fine and dandy...

and as we know,there is a real division in this country regarding abortion,gay marriage,euthanasia,capital punishment, etc....

imo,the judeo-christian ethic...the basis for our moral code......has been a good thing....

i only hope that your atheism doesn`t mask an "anything goes' agenda.........that would eventually lead to anarchy....

Thanks GW.

Just because I don't accept Christianity doesn't mean that morals and ethics aren't of the utmost importance to me. My goal as a human being is to be a good one. My idea of what is "good" is up to me, and not outlined in an ancient text. That might sound like a license to set up some low moral/ethical standards, but on the other hand, it is also a chance to set the bar higher than everyone else. I have a long way to go, but I'm trying to be a better person everyday. This is the part that confuses a lot of holier than thou Christians...not believing does not lead to an immoral, amoral, and/or unethical lifestyle.

 

[blgstocks]

Buddy, I'll make a deal with you. If Jesus stops by the apartment, I'll come back and tell all you guys I was wrong and Jesus is Lord and all the other good stuff. The chances of that happening are zero, but I will humor you. In fact, I would try to explain this to others. Would I say "the gig is up, he's real?", yes I would.

This is a wonderful hypothetical, but my question is: are you saying that millions of Christians have Jesus visit them? By the way, I am referring to the Burns/Denver type of encounter...not the kind of encounter where people "see" Jesus in anything good that happens.

What would it take to shake your faith?

I love how you confirmed exactly what my arguement has been all along. In your own words "The gig is up" If God made it blatantly obvious to us that He existed we would all say the Gig is up and be forced to believe in Him.

The part you say about Jesus words as more important, yes Gmroz, the Son of God's words as quoted from His mouth are more important than a bunch of rules that rabbis made around God's rules so that their followers would not be close to sinning.

The part you say evolution has evidence to support it as saying a supernatural creator does not have any evidence is wrong as well. What better evidence do you need that natural cannot explain how we came into existence, saying we evolved from monkeys doesn't cut it for me, and it shouldn't cut it for you. Where did monkeys come from, where did fish come from, where did goo that created fish come from, where did those elements appear from? It all had to start somewhere, natural cannot just exist, it HAS to have a supernatural(beyond the natural means) to create it. You ask Who created God? As if a supernatural being needs to be created or is bound by the laws that he creates. Nobody needs to create a supernatural being.

I never said the reason to do good deeds to get into heaven was correct, in fact I said those that have faith in Jesus do good deeds because we know that it is the best thing for us to do, or we do them out of Love for God. I said those that try to do good deeds to get into heaven or taking away from what Jesus did. And I think I answered your question about what God is concerned about more, faith or good deeds.

Except you have still yet to adequately answer my question of where it all started or about the the more science learns about the cell the more unlikely it is that it came into existence without intelligent design.

You don't have to worship science to have faith in it. You obviously have faith in science for that is the only reasons you are throwing at me to refute my belief in God. It is that you believe science has alll the answers and you have faith in science to deliver them.

To answer your question of whether or not I believe in evolution, of course I believe in some parts of evolution, the evidence is overwhelming in microevolution(small changed occuring over thousands of years). Of course that is the only significant theory that the facts have supported. Yes species adapt, and change, over long periods of time. But I am curious if you buy into macroevolution which is significant changes over short periods of time? Like a fish's genetic makeup suddenly changes and it turns into a salamander? Do you believe in that, or just in micro?

"Even if he is supernatural this is a stretch" I am sorry this is ridiculous. You obviously don't understand the meaning of supernatural. He is not bound by our laws (He created them) so there is nothing He could do that would be "a stretch"

So I think I answered all of your questions, If I havent please ask them again. But I would like you to answer my questions as well.

Sorry as usual to have these extensive arguements and rebuttals, but I don't pretend to have one liner answers. I don't think there are one liners to these questions and I think to give one liners to these would insult your intelligence and leave you feeling unsatisfied in my answers.

 

[blgstocks]

Smurph, I read in a Nick Douglas post that you were a hokie fan about 6 months ago and I gave you a shout out to see why and you didnt respond. It was in the sports teams and fans pile though.

Anyway I am out here on the west coast as well(Long Beach) and I remember watching VT in 98 and seeing Vick and the type of hard nosed defense they play and their special teams and it was just a team I fell in love with and started rooting for them. Then they went undefeated (until NC) in 99 and I have been a huge fan ever since. I have been a Kansas fan as well and for a little bit longer than VT fan, but it is hard to root for them in football. I am also a Twolves fan and an Arizona St University fan(my parents raised me as one) so I am pretty much a sports team mutt.
Always glad to come across another Hokie Fan, especially out here on the west coast.

 

[smurphy]

Sorry I didn't respond in that other thread. I've been accused of doing that more than once. That 99 team was something special. Too bad we couldn't win a couple more in the hoops tourney in honor of the fallen Hokie Fan - but maybe it's being saved up for football season.

Sorry to interrupt the debate. ....It's Kosar's fault.

Whatever happened to the "God Machine" on Daily Show? That was hysterical.