Why Won't God Heal Amputees?

[Padre]

there is a pain called phantom pain. It happens with victims who are amputees. THey feel sensations of pain where their ligaments and arm used to be. In reality there is no arm or ligaments. This is the brain realizing something is wrong and yet still produces pain receptors (somehow) where there is no arm.

SO what I was saying is the original question of the thread says "Why won't God Heal Amputees"? SO given phantom pain, one could say "Why does God still give pain to amputees when it shouldn't happen"

U just do not get it , do you?

U see its God's plan. It is all God's plan. u see these individuals that have lost limbs, are being "tested" , their will and faith.

And some feel the phantom pain, some do not.

the ones that do, well their faith must be real stubborn. and God needs to remind them of who's in charge. and that they need to have better faith in order to understand what it is that they are going through.

But if this doesnt answer it for you, amongst the 3 million other questions that you may have about your faith. Just look in the Bible and find ,well any verse, and it will make sense of it all for you.

And if you can get the answers that way, well just chalk it up to God's will. or God's Plan. or hell, divine intervention.

 

[blgstocks]

there is a pain called phantom pain. It happens with victims who are amputees. THey feel sensations of pain where their ligaments and arm used to be. In reality there is no arm or ligaments. This is the brain realizing something is wrong and yet still produces pain receptors (somehow) where there is no arm.

SO what I was saying is the original question of the thread says "Why won't God Heal Amputees"? SO given phantom pain, one could say "Why does God still give pain to amputees when it shouldn't happen"

God does not give them pain, there is a scientific explanation for why their bodies produce the pain.

One could ask any question like this, "Why didn't God pick up my newspaper so that it wouldn't get wet from the sprinklers?" I mean God does not have to actively intervene in our lives. So why does pain happen to amputees is the question. Gee what makes amputees so special, we all have pain in our life. God never promises life without pain and the fact that we all experience pain does not disprove the existence of God.

 

[SpursDynasty]

God does not give them pain, there is a scientific explanation for why their bodies produce the pain.

One could ask any question like this, "Why didn't God pick up my newspaper so that it wouldn't get wet from the sprinklers?" I mean God does not have to actively intervene in our lives. So why does pain happen to amputees is the question. Gee what makes amputees so special, we all have pain in our life. God never promises life without pain and the fact that we all experience pain does not disprove the existence of God.

God does not give them pain, there is a scientific explanation for why their bodies produce the pain.

it wasn't a direct statement trying to disprove the existence of God or anything.

more commentary if anything about the puzzles of science and the brain and perception and also what is real. The pain IS NOT supposed to happen, but it is. its simply addressing the topic of our physical body being able to show pain in a object that doesn't exist (amputee leg). If anything maybe if we did figure out the whole picture of the complex world of neurology, some could use that for the proof of God.

great read if anyone is interested:

http://www.amazon.com/Phantoms-Brain-Probing-Mysteries-Human/dp/0688172172

 

[Happy Hippo]

Better said, if God exists and listens to prayers, how come the prayers of amputees are NEVER answered? Amputees are used because it is a black and white case for the "power" of prayer. This was never intended to be a discussion about amputees, but the philosophy behind atheist beliefs.

As a former athiest turned agnostic who now believes in a higher power, I think you are missing the point. Again I will say that prayer is not a time to plead with God to heal yourself or make you rich or anything like that. Prayer is a time to commune with God and let loose of all your troubles. Some people are healed from disease and other strife and experience miracles because of positive mental thought, which can be a result of prayer. Obviously it is not possible, no matter how positive one thinks, to be "cured" from amputation.

Some good reading material that I would suggest if you also have an open mind...Huxley and God (essays by Aldous Huxley) and The Perennial Philosophy (also by Huxley). Kierkegaard also has some good books like Fear and Trembling that talk about the leap of faith that is necessary to believe.

And here is a really good article that explains how strong the human mind is, and that things that we manifest are indeed not necessarily because of God, but because of the human consciousness. God gave us free will, and that is why we carry the burden to decide what we believe in and what we don't, and to experience pain and error.

"Does this also mean that people choose to become ill? No, not consciously. But you do produce the illness. The subconscious creates that illness. You are essentially at the mercy of your circumstances while you are also ? according to the mechanism of attraction and rejection ? the creator of your own life. It is not easy ? but it is always possible ? to discover the convictions that lead to your behaviour. You have adopted those convictions in certain situations.

.....

A drastic example. A pharmaceutical manufacturer did a study with a new type of chemotherapy. Ten patients were given the new chemotherapy and 10 other patients received a liquid that looked exactly the same, but only contained vitamins. All the patients thought they were getting chemotherapy. After a couple of weeks 3 of the 10 patients from the ?vitamin group? had gone completely bald. Humans are a beautiful species, but there is also a dangerous side."

http://www.odemagazine.com/article.php?aID=3796

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

As a former athiest turned agnostic who now believes in a higher power, I think you are missing the point. Again I will say that prayer is not a time to plead with God to heal yourself or make you rich or anything like that. Prayer is a time to commune with God and let loose of all your troubles. Some people are healed from disease and other strife and experience miracles because of positive mental thought, which can be a result of prayer. Obviously it is not possible, no matter how positive one thinks, to be "cured" from amputation.

You are right. You cannot be cured from amputation because prayer is simply a superstitious act. Praying to have good fortune and then having subsequent good fortune are linked only in coincidence. When people pray for miracles that are not open to coincidence (like this example) the TRUE power of prayer is revealed.

 

[blgstocks]

You are right. You cannot be cured from amputation because prayer is simply a superstitious act. Praying to have good fortune and then having subsequent good fortune are linked only in coincidence. When people pray for miracles that are not open to coincidence (like this example) the TRUE power of prayer is revealed.

I think what hippo and I have been trying to say is that prayer is not a command to God. Prayer is talking with God. Because God does not answer your prayer does not disprove his existence, because God never states that he will answer all prayers with a yes. Prayer is often viewed, incorrectly, as a command, and if the command is not answer then "the power of prayer is revealed" as if to say prayer doesn't work. Of course prayer doesn't work as a command, no one ever said it did but you and others who think it works that way.

 

[smurphy]

As a former athiest turned agnostic who now believes in a higher power...

Geez lady, make up your frikkin mind! Are you just following the faith of your father, then boyfriend, then next boyfreind? Women tend to do that.:shrug:

 

[buddy]

God answer prayer in one of three ways:

1- "Yes"

2- "Not yet"

3- "I have something better in mind"

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

Some good reading material that I would suggest if you also have an open mind...Huxley and God (essays by Aldous Huxley) and The Perennial Philosophy (also by Huxley). Kierkegaard also has some good books like Fear and Trembling that talk about the leap of faith that is necessary to believe.

And here is a really good article that explains how strong the human mind is, and that things that we manifest are indeed not necessarily because of God, but because of the human consciousness. God gave us free will, and that is why we carry the burden to decide what we believe in and what we don't, and to experience pain and error.

"Does this also mean that people choose to become ill? No, not consciously. But you do produce the illness. The subconscious creates that illness. You are essentially at the mercy of your circumstances while you are also ? according to the mechanism of attraction and rejection ? the creator of your own life. It is not easy ? but it is always possible ? to discover the convictions that lead to your behaviour. You have adopted those convictions in certain situations.

.....

A drastic example. A pharmaceutical manufacturer did a study with a new type of chemotherapy. Ten patients were given the new chemotherapy and 10 other patients received a liquid that looked exactly the same, but only contained vitamins. All the patients thought they were getting chemotherapy. After a couple of weeks 3 of the 10 patients from the ?vitamin group? had gone completely bald. Humans are a beautiful species, but there is also a dangerous side."

http://www.odemagazine.com/article.php?aID=3796

I don't doubt the power of the human mind and I don't doubt that a positive outlook can do the body good (as stress can do a body bad). My disagreement is with the link to God. It's unnecessary because God isn't the one giving you the positive outlook, you are. In The End of Faith, there is a discussion of prayer experiments where patients that knew people were praying for them to get better, actually fared worse than the other patients because they felt the stress of having to get better.

This discussion is going to go nowhere. You're either arguing that God answers prayers, or that believing in his powers can give you the positive outlook that can lead to recovery. I'm saying the former is ridiculous and the latter is legitimate except that bringing God into the equation is unneccessary.

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

God answer prayer in one of three ways:

1- "Yes"

2- "Not yet"

3- "I have something better in mind"

I thought it was yes, no, and wait. This allows for coincidence to take its sweet ole time and doesn't allow room to blame God.

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

I think what hippo and I have been trying to say is that prayer is not a command to God. Prayer is talking with God. Because God does not answer your prayer does not disprove his existence, because God never states that he will answer all prayers with a yes. Prayer is often viewed, incorrectly, as a command, and if the command is not answer then "the power of prayer is revealed" as if to say prayer doesn't work. Of course prayer doesn't work as a command, no one ever said it did but you and others who think it works that way.

I never said it was a command. I'm guessing amputees of faith have prayed without making demands.

 

[smurphy]

I have to admit - this thread has way more legs than I ever imagined. ....No pun intended. Keep up the good work.

 

[Happy Hippo]

Geez lady, make up your frikkin mind! Are you just following the faith of your father, then boyfriend, then next boyfreind? Women tend to do that.:shrug:

Come on now s-murph, I didn't take you for a male chauvinist. Women tend to do that...lol - and we are all liars too! Unfortunately, I've never had a boyfriend THAT smart who could influence me in such a profound way Now my father...I'll give him some props.

I have to admit - this thread has way more legs than I ever imagined.

:com:

 

[IntenseOperator]

IMO (not knocking anybody)

All & any organized religion is just another business. Be straight with yourself and others. If you need to go into all kinds of personal soul searching and need to figure out the questions of the universe, why not go into a wide open field that needs such open minded investigation like astrology or lawn care.

If you really want to help others, why not look for a cure for cancer. You have some success there and I guarantee that you will feel complete. The rest of this seems to be an endless waste of time to satisfy one's ego.

People are such followers. :mj10:

Reminds me of dieters. Lets see how we can make eating and living right such an involved process. I'm going to come out with a convoluted plan to lose weight that involves licking rocks. They will line up in droves for years until another idea comes along.

I'm always amazed how big the voids are for those of weak character. Voids that one needs to fill.

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

IO - I've read a lot of your posts (on other subjects) and never thought I'd ever say that our thoughts are aligned, but on this issue, I think we agree that the reasons for religion go beyond those presented by the flock.

Your analogy about licking rocks is probably not far off. Religions have come and gone. In the book The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins discusses this phenomenon. One of his examples of oddball religions/cults is that of the people on the island of Tanna worship a man called John Frum. Frum's presence is linked back to the 1940's, but there is not proof of his existence. Anywho, the tribes there worship John Frum the way Christians worship Jesus. Mr. Frum had some prophecies (including a second coming) that the tribes subscribe to. Christians will dismiss this "religion" as nonsense, but is it any different than their own?

 

[blgstocks]

I never said it was a command. I'm guessing amputees of faith have prayed without making demands.

well the evidence that you bring to back up your claim that prayer is "superstitous" is that it does not work, or as you put it "the true power of prayer is revealed". Yet you judge prayer based on if God does what you ask him. You even said yourself, whenever anything that happens that was prayed for it is just a coincedence, so obviously you are using "When I ask for something, does it happen" as a benchmark for testing prayer. But nobody ever said God responds with a "yes" to your request everytime, but that is the very logic you are using to test whtether prayer is "superstitous". So prayer is not a "superstitous" act on its own merits, it is the fact that you don't believe there is a God to begin with. Again, you are only left with "I dont believe it, because theres no God" as your only reason for not believing in an aspect of Christianity.

 

[kosar]

Great conversation, guys(particularly blg and gmroz). I enjoyed it, even if the subject pretty much bores me and neither side can ever prove anything either way.

Maybe i'm hedging a bit(just in case?), but I am not an atheist. I guess I would be an agnostic that *tends* to think there is a higher being, but am repulsed at organized religion.

Just tipping my pinky toe in here in this debate as I really don't have much interest.

Just as a general aside/observation and not directed at anyone in this thread or anybody in particular at all.

It seems to me over the years, when religious people are asked for proof that God exists, they either defer to 'I can't describe it' or 'it's all around us' or point to a book that is likely nothing but a bunch of fables and allegories.

I fully respect anyones rights to believe/worship in God, Allah, etc, but i'm always amazed at how many billions worldwide are so sure and are so sure that they are so right and other religions are so wrong.

Makes no sense and there is no proof, or anything approaching proof.

 

[AR182]

It seems to me over the years, when religious people are asked for proof that God exists, they either defer to 'I can't describe it' or 'it's all around us' or point to a book that is likely nothing but a bunch of fables and allegories.

I fully respect anyones rights to believe/worship in God, Allah, etc, but i'm always amazed at how many billions worldwide are so sure and are so sure that they are so right and other religions are so wrong.

Makes no sense and there is no proof, or anything approaching proof.

the last paragraph sums up my feeling on the subject....

i'll believe there is a god when somebody proves it to me.....

until then i'll continue worshipping my wife...

 

[blgstocks]

IMO (not knocking anybody)

If you need to go into all kinds of personal soul searching and need to figure out the questions of the universe, why not go into a wide open field that needs such open minded investigation like astrology or lawn care.

If you really want to help others, why not look for a cure for cancer. You have some success there and I guarantee that you will feel complete. The rest of this seems to be an endless waste of time to satisfy one's ego.

People are such followers. :mj10:

Reminds me of dieters. Lets see how we can make eating and living right such an involved process. I'm going to come out with a convoluted plan to lose weight that involves licking rocks. They will line up in droves for years until another idea comes along.

I'm always amazed how big the voids are for those of weak character. Voids that one needs to fill.

I honestly can't tell if this post is a joke or not IO, so if it is, I am sorry because your sarcasm didn't go through over the internet for me. But if this is the way you feel, then it is ignorant.

If one has questions about where we came from, why we are here, or what purpose do I have in life, we should go into lawn care? I think we should all ask ourselves these questions and seriously consider what answers make sense to us and the implications of those answers in our lives.

I will have to take your word for it that curing cancer will leave me completely fulfilled. Since you are the only one to cure cancer, and can garauntee this fulfillment, I might change my course in life from business to researching cancer.

I am not saying you are one of them IO,, but the world would be better off if we all did things to help people(like curing cancer) instead of being greedy and look after our own interest are usualy the same people that say WalMart is an evil. And yet, they ignorantly or selfishly don't realize that Walmart has increased the quality of living around the world by not only making iteams more accessible and cheaper, but by giving millions of low skilled people work, who would be starving and living in complete poverty if it weren't for the wages they earn "slaving" for walmart. If you really want to help others you could try starting a business that works alot like that big evil WalMart, that gives millions of poor a better way of life, or you could invent a drug that could cure cancer but only be available to the richest who could afford it because the drug company you work for is in business to turn a profit to.

And you are right, people are such followers, I have never met an athiest that rejects all things Christian. In fact, athiests sound alot like the little goth kids you see, "Oh its so lame to want to fit in" and then you see hundreds of little Goth kids trying to fit in by "not fitting in". Athiests look down on Christians because they are "such followers" and not totally independent thinkers like them. Yeah being a Christian is real "cool" right now, you see alot of Christians on tv making fun of athiesm. And Christianity is held in a real high regard in the most of the intellectual community right now huh. Don't for a second kid yourself into thinking Christians are part of the "in" crowd and those that are Christians are just trendy "followers" and how lame we all are. When in fact athiesm has been the new "fad" of the modern age.

 

[blgstocks]

Great conversation, guys(particularly blg and gmroz). I enjoyed it, even if the subject pretty much bores me and neither side can ever prove anything either way.

Maybe i'm hedging a bit(just in case?), but I am not an atheist. I guess I would be an agnostic that *tends* to think there is a higher being, but am repulsed at organized religion.

Just tipping my pinky toe in here in this debate as I really don't have much interest.

Just as a general aside/observation and not directed at anyone in this thread or anybody in particular at all.

It seems to me over the years, when religious people are asked for proof that God exists, they either defer to 'I can't describe it' or 'it's all around us' or point to a book that is likely nothing but a bunch of fables and allegories.

I fully respect anyones rights to believe/worship in God, Allah, etc, but i'm always amazed at how many billions worldwide are so sure and are so sure that they are so right and other religions are so wrong.

Makes no sense and there is no proof, or anything approaching proof.

great post kosar, I think this is the way many feel.I can say that many people in my life have immidiate negative conotations when they think of religion. I do as well. I honestly don't know how you couldn't.

I don't think you will ever find somebody to deliver you proof for their faith. I don't know of any that could "prove" to you that God exists, or I would have pulled that trump card early on lol. But I can say from personal experience that it was the questions other sides could not answer, or holes in their theology, that has lead me to my belief in the Christian idea of God.