I Hope I'm Wrong, but.....

[WhatsHisNuts]

I think this bailout plan will become disasterous for our economy. The people at work were celebrating when they heard the bill had passed....I didn't share their excitement. I don't understand how this "band-aid" is any reason to celebrate and I'm (once again) embarrassed by the government's action.

I'm not rooting for a depression, I just want the country to take responsibility for its own actions and learn from it. The people that were trying to scare us with the threat of an economic collapse and a depression were exaggerating in order to get this deal made to benefit their own selfish interests.

The only positive I can take from this is that if you have a lot of debt, the inflation should help as your debt actually decreases in value.

This is really discouraging. Like I said, I hope I'm wrong on this, but I don't see how I can be.

 

[DerrickTulips]

I have no idea why they rushed to pass it. The senators didnt even read what was in the plan. This will be an epic failure..

 

[Agent 0659]

Bailout bill loops in IRS snooping
IRS undercover operations: Privacy invasion?
The bailout bill also gives the Internal Revenue Service new authority to conduct undercover operations. It would immunize the IRS from a passel of federal laws, including permitting IRS agents to run businesses for an extended sting operation, to open their own personal bank accounts with U.S. tax dollars, and so on. (Think IRS agents posing as accountants or tax preparers and saying, "I'm not sure if that deduction is entirely legal, but it'll save you $1,000. Want to take it?") That section had expired as of January 1, 2008, and would now be renewed.
Starting with the so-called Anti-Drug Abuse Act in 1988, the IRS has possessed this authority temporarily, with occasional multiple-year lapses. A 1999 internal report said the IRS had 126 "trained undercover agents" working in field offices at the time. This is the first time that such undercover authority would be made permanent.
Sens. Max Baucus (D) and Chuck Grassley (R) have been pushing to make it permanent for a while, claiming (PDF) in April that: "Undercover operations are an integral part of IRS efforts to detect and prove noncompliance. The temporary status of this provision creates uncertainty, as the IRS plans its undercover efforts from year to year."
There's another section of the bailout bill worth noting. It lets the IRS give information from individual tax returns to any federal law enforcement agency investigating suspected "terrorist" activity, which can, in turn, share it with local and state police. Intelligence agencies such as the CIA and the National Security Agency can also receive that information.
The information that can be shared includes "a taxpayer's identity, the nature, source, or amount of his income, payments, receipts, deductions, exemptions, credits, assets, liabilities, net worth, tax liability, tax withheld, deficiencies, overassessments, or tax payments, whether the taxpayer's return was, is being, or will be examined or subject to other investigation or processing, or any other data received by, recorded by, prepared by, furnished to, or collected by the Secretary with respect to a return."
That provision had already existed in federal law and automatically expired on January 1, 2008.
What's a little odd is that there's been little to no discussion of the IRS sections of the bailout bill, even though they raise privacy concerns. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said this week: "I will continue to work with congressional leaders to find a way forward to pass a comprehensive plan to stabilize our financial system and protect the American people by limiting the prospects of further deterioration in our economy." He never mentioned the necessity of additional IRS undercover operations.

 

[The Sponge]

Maybe this was the scam they wanted when they wanted to robbed social security. :shrug: I think this is a total scam and once again the neocons fooled the Democrats. Are there really that many people that over spent for their mortgages or is that how they framed it so they divide everyone and make it easier to blame the middle class to disguise the real problems? I don't know one person who lost their house. Oh yeah one. That pig who was banging that guy who murdered his wife. Forget the broads name. Amber Fry maybe? Oh and Eddie McMahon and Cansenco. I feel bad for those three. Truly heart broken. Three people with houses over 500 thousand. Kinda looks like it was the rich who were losing the houses.

 

[smurphy]

I just want the country to take responsibility for its own actions and learn from it. The people that were trying to scare us with the threat of an economic collapse and a depression were exaggerating in order to get this deal made to benefit their own selfish interests.

Yeah, totally agree. Well said.

 

[BobbyBlueChip]

Yeah, totally agree. Well said.

It sounds like your both scared

 

[smurphy]

It sounds like your both scared

I aint scared, I just agree with that part of his post.

 

[BobbyBlueChip]

I aint scared, I just agree with that part of his post.

Sounds like you're scared

 

[buddy]

Nobody knows what to be scared of.

Everyone knows something isn't right, something is not the way it's supposed to be, but no one can put a finger on it let alone wrap their arms around it.

BUT STILL, everyone knows something has gone terribly wrong.

The kool-aid has changed from a liquid to a gas and we're breathing it.

 

[AR182]

I think this bailout plan will become disasterous for our economy. The people at work were celebrating when they heard the bill had passed....I didn't share their excitement. I don't understand how this "band-aid" is any reason to celebrate and I'm (once again) embarrassed by the government's action.

I'm not rooting for a depression, I just want the country to take responsibility for its own actions and learn from it. The people that were trying to scare us with the threat of an economic collapse and a depression were exaggerating in order to get this deal made to benefit their own selfish interests.

The only positive I can take from this is that if you have a lot of debt, the inflation should help as your debt actually decreases in value.

This is really discouraging. Like I said, I hope I'm wrong on this, but I don't see how I can be.

agree....we have become a country of enablers....

 

[Eddie Haskell]

Guys:

Think about it. What do we make in the US? Nothing. We sell services. Our economy has been based on it since the 70's. Manufacturing has been declining for the last 30 or 40 years.

We have been playing a shell game and building a house of cards. We buy everything, make nothing and live on credit. I've been saying the US is over ever since I came on board here. Not because I unpatriotic as some accuse. Rather, because I'm a realist.

Everyone is now scrambling for the remaining dollars and gimmicks. We are becoming Britain only I'm not sure we will be ready to give up #1 economic power in the world without using our military might (ie Iraq = Haliburton profits) which create jobs etc.

We are pretty scary to the rest of the world. Considering Iraq, with reason. This is not a temporary recession or bump. I think people better get used to a lower standard of living across the board.

Eddie

 

[BobbyBlueChip]

Guys:

Think about it. What do we make in the US? Nothing.

Not true. We buy and sell companies and houses from one another, we consume and we serve the elderly

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Guys:

Think about it. What do we make in the US? Nothing. We sell services. Our economy has been based on it since the 70's. Manufacturing has been declining for the last 30 or 40 years.

We have been playing a shell game and building a house of cards. We buy everything, make nothing and live on credit. I've been saying the US is over ever since I came on board here. Not because I unpatriotic as some accuse. Rather, because I'm a realist.

Everyone is now scrambling for the remaining dollars and gimmicks. We are becoming Britain only I'm not sure we will be ready to give up #1 economic power in the world without using our military might (ie Iraq = Haliburton profits) which create jobs etc.

We are pretty scary to the rest of the world. Considering Iraq, with reason. This is not a temporary recession or bump. I think people better get used to a lower standard of living across the board.

Eddie

I did think about it Edward and come up with entirely diff view.

Lets see should we believe Edwards "opinion"
or facts from ILO (International Labor Org.)

Rather than use the ever pessimisdtic half empty-liberal view--of "we make nothing" to describe decrease in manufacturing jobs--let look at the real reason "productivty"

by definition-

"The amount of physical output for each unit of productive input."
(Didn't want you using the liberal unabridged dictionary that list blow job as synonymn for pergury)

http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the...Press_releases/lang--en/WCMS_083976/index.htm

The ILO report, entitled ?Key Indicators of the Labour Market (KILM), fifth Edition? indicates that the U.S. still leads the world by far in labour productivity per person employed in 2006 despite a rapid increase of productivity in East Asia where workers now produce twice as much as they did 10 years ago.

another global source from 2007

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1011022.shtml

US leads world in Labour Productivity: US companies put Ireland in second place in global rankings
By Finfacts Team
Sep 4, 2007 - 3:43:00 AM

--and one more comment on your we build nothing
I say -100% to the contrary- that currently U.S. is largest manufacturer in the world!!!!

Would you like to back up your opinion with a little wager--or have you really learned your lesson.
:0corn

 

[dawgball]

I think the worst part about our current situation is that it appears that nobody (especially the general public) has a clue as to what is really going on. Ignorance in this situation puts the control in the wrong hands. This bailout is the weapon.

I think our economy will be fine overall, but I think this country has been tearing apart for almost two decades, and I think we are due for a rip.

No matter who is in office, there are too many people trying to undermine them. Started with Clinton, continued with Bush, and the next President (regardless of who it is) will not get a drop of bi-partisan support. A country can't continue to prosper like this.

 

[Eddie Haskell]

Other than bullshiit, what do we manufacture? Cars? Steel? Homes (oops)? Oil? Oh, I forgot, drill, baby, drill. Walk through your WalMart in Bowling Green and see where the products they are selling are made? Jesus Christ, even the American Flag hanging on your porch was probably made in Mexico.

Eddie

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

Wayne: What my candidate is trying to say is that anything that can be made cheaper outside of the US, is or soon will be. There will always be a need to make certain things in-house, but the vast majority of manufacturing will be taking place outside the US.

This is how a global economy functions. You tap resources that help you make a more competitive product. The labor is vastly cheaper elsewhere (Mexico, China, etc.) and it only makes sense to use those resources whenever possible. As those countries benefit from this, they will find themselves leaving the labor market and entering into other markets, and some other low wage providing country will pick up the slack.

Eddie: Please keep me in mind for a future cabinet position.

 

[Terryray]

Other than bullshiit, what do we manufacture? Cars? Steel? Homes (oops)? Oil? Oh, I forgot, drill, baby, drill. Walk through your WalMart in Bowling Green and see where the products they are selling are made? Jesus Christ, even the American Flag hanging on your porch was probably made in Mexico.

Eddie

Top US manufactured goods (and exports) include semiconductors, auto parts, civil aircraft, computers, certain refined iron and steel products, organic chemicals, pharmaceuticals, electric and electronic equipment, transistors, telecommunications equipment, manufacturing equipment and robotics, aircraft engines and gas turbines, and more...

Most of the US manufacturers in trouble are 4 or so industries that suffer a terrible comparative advantage in global markets--these industries are centered in Michigan/Ohio area, so you folks are quite (if not over) familiar with them.

But US manufacturing overall is pretty robust -- in terms of output, profitablility, ROI to investors, and exports. Remaining, for decades, about 20% total world manufactured output. US jobs have been declining in the sector, as have real wages (tho still above $60k median average) and it's share of GDP. It is the classic picture of a sector in transition.

In 1900, agriculture was over 40% of our prosperous work force. Know-nothing folks back then thought it was the way to riches and fought, bemoaned, and complained the change to the 2% agricultural work force we have today. Many of the folks in this forum would have been in that chorus of complainers back then.

We still make a bunch of stuff, more than we did 20 years ago, thru increased productivity (due to the blessings of the profit incentive and foreign competition).

Even so, the more 'bunch of stuff' we're making isn't the key to future riches, even if your basic premise that we don't make anything anymore is false.

The key to wealth is what we did in 1900, let profits and trade signal us where to free up resources and workers to transform and innovate in new directions--to go do other things creating new products and services.

Would be helpful for lawyers, before passing judgment, to learn a bit about trade and economics, and some wisdom from the ancients--quoth Pliny the Elder "ne supra crepidam judicaret."

 

[buddy]

You can spin it any way you want. Anymore, it's not even worthy of discussion - quoth buddy The Elder

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Orders for big-ticket manufactured goods slide by largest amount in 7 months

By Martin Crutsinger
Associated Press

POSTED: 07:22 a.m. EDT, Sep 25, 2008

WASHINGTON: Orders for big-ticket manufactured goods plunged in August by the largest amount in seven months as demand for both airplanes and autos fell sharply.

The Commerce Department reported today that orders for durable goods fell by 4.5 percent last month, far worse than the 1.6 percent decline that economists expected. It was the biggest setback since a 4.7 percent fall in January and came after modest increases in the past three months.

The widespread weakness was led by a 38.1 percent fall in orders for commercial aircraft, the biggest drop in this category in a year. Demand for autos fell by 8.1 percent ? the biggest drop in 19 months ? as automakers struggle with the weak economy and falling demand for once-popular trucks and sport utility vehicles.

While manufacturers have struggled with weak domestic demand, especially in sectors linked to housing and autos, some of that drop-off has been offset by strong sales to foreign countries. However, there are concerns that exports could start to falter given spreading weakness in such big overseas markets as Europe and Japan.

For August, the 4.5 percent drop in orders for durable goods, items expected to last at least three years, left demand at a total $208.5 billion, 1.6 percent below the year-ago level.

Demand for heavy machinery fell by 6.2 percent while orders for primary metals such as steel fell by 9.3 percent, the biggest drop in the metals category in 15 years.

Orders for nondefense capital goods excluding aircraft, considered a proxy for business investment plans, fell by 2 percent, a possible sign that businesses, worried by the weak economy, are cutting back on their plans to expand and modernize.

Excluding transportation, orders were down 3 percent, much worse than the 0.5 percent drop that had been expected.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Wayne: What my candidate is trying to say is that anything that can be made cheaper outside of the US, is or soon will be. There will always be a need to make certain things in-house, but the vast majority of manufacturing will be taking place outside the US.

This is how a global economy functions. You tap resources that help you make a more competitive product. The labor is vastly cheaper elsewhere (Mexico, China, etc.) and it only makes sense to use those resources whenever possible. As those countries benefit from this, they will find themselves leaving the labor market and entering into other markets, and some other low wage providing country will pick up the slack.

Eddie: Please keep me in mind for a future cabinet position.

and your passing minumum wage and pro Dem unions helps this how?

I'll look up my #s of employment in union vs right to work states if will help in analysis--or get youth unemployment increase compared to others after minimum wage increase.

You are to smart to be on Edwards cabinet Gary--he's the ultimate liberal whipping boy--go back over this thread if you have any doubts.

Hmm Wonder who it took more times to pass bar--he or Michele Obama.

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

and your passing minumum wage and pro Dem unions helps this how?

Wayne: I am anti-union and not a Democrat.