3000-facts

[smurphy]

i think the americans stopped supporting the iraq war because no wmds were found & we are an instant gratification country...we have no patience.

that, and the evidence keeps rolling in that were likely completely deceived by our government about those wmd's. i don't think you can blame this on our "instant gratification" culture.

....remember, YOU are the recovering hippy. many of us never ventured to that darkside.:SIB

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Smurph -the yearly reductions in troops would equally go to the war becoming under control--with the Arvins picking up more of the duty.
Being there in 70/71 I can tell you the NVA was rairily seen and can't think of any fire bases being assaulted by or being over run by battalion strength NVA forces as in the tet offenses of 67-68-69. The enemy had been basically reduced to guerilla war of the viet cong--
over half the deaths that occurred in 71 happened in Cambodia--when we went in unexpectedly to attack the NVA hiding there.

Redsfan The reason I doubt you were in miltary combat is from your remark
"The idea the "media" was responsible for the US losing the war in Vietnam or when we lose the Iraq War is a laughable joke."

A: your already writing off Iraq war or wishful thinking--
B: you can quote whom ever you want till dooms day--but I have one very simple question you or your liberal elements.

How can the greatest Army on earth with aid of other half of country in civil war lose(as you and liberals like to refer to peace treaty on withdrawel) to any enemy that has no airforce no tanks ect in area. The only possible way for the South to lose is for media and public to force us to withdraw and let our allies get slaughtered- -is there any other way that the the north could have won.--yet you & yours find that answer laughable.

Imagine for a second in an almost identicle civil war we entered in Korea decades earlier.

Had we had the liberal element and press we had during Viet Nam what do you think chances are there would be South Korea today.--I'll tell you-absolutely "0"

At what point would you have been wailling about the U.S. casualties 10,000- 25,000-50,000 ???

--and at what point would you and your liberal elements be screaming--"They didn't attack us--what are we doing here".!

in conclusion as the North Vietnames General stated and UBL has quoted while our miltary was invincible we had an achilles heel--the general didn't realize it till conclusion of war however didn't take rest of our enemies long to pick up on it.

--back to your "when we lose the Iraq War"
its attitudes like that they count on--militarially the war of Iraq was won in days--the final outcome for the people will depend not on our military accomplishments but on our fortitude to remain and see it through till they can stand alone--as we are still doing in korea--or we can let the "non fighting element" decide Iraq'is fate.

 

[redsfann]

Korea? Why not try WWI and the Civil War as well, DTB?

While we are at it, why no mention of Afganistan? Didn't we declare "victory" there, too?
Might want to let the Tailiban know that--they are many times stronger than they were since our 'victory' there. The russians spent 20 years bogged down in Afganistan, you'd think we could have got a clue about that area of the world and stayed out of there, but noooooo...

I'm guessing from your incoherent ramblings--would it kill you to form at least ONE complete sentence once in a while?--which is par for the course from you--you think that we "won" the "korean Conflict" as well?

Do you really feel better about yourself that we "won" the invasion of Iraq?

We could put 1,000,000 troops on the ground in Iraq, level the country and we still have not "won" ANYTHING!

Wailing about US causualities?

WTF is that supposed to mean? 3000 american soilders have died in Iraq--

FOR ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!

If thats how you define "wailing" put me down for guilty as charged...

and you continue to insist that we "won" the invasion. Like "winning" the invasion of a 3rd-world, backwater outpost is some sort of huge military victory.
And you try and make it sound as if I don't care about our soliders?
you post some ridiculous stats about the # of soliders killed in Viet Nam like its somehow OK that only 500 or so died(once again--FOR NOTHING!!) when there were only 2000 troops there at that time, and I don't care about troops being killed?
If it makes you sleep better at night, you go right ahead and keep thinking I don't care about the troops.

Don't suppose you saw 'Frontline' last night by any chance?

Never mind answering that one. Since it wasn't shown on the Fox propaganda channel, I KNOW you didn't see it.

This is some classic DTB "logic" here---

"--back to your "when we lose the Iraq War"
its attitudes like that they count on--militarially the war of Iraq was won in days--the final outcome for the people will depend not on our military accomplishments but on our fortitude to remain and see it through till they can stand alone--as we are still doing in korea--or we can let the "non fighting element" decide Iraq'is fate."

Its called living in a free society, Dogs. I know your wet dream is to live in a totalitarian regime so that someone can tell you at all times what to think and feel, but as much as this country has swung in that direction, we are not there yet.

I can express my opposition to my governments' actions and I won't be arrested, or killed--like I would be in many places in this world--
including your favorite place to earn a dishonest dollar these days, China.
I am free to challenge your posts on a message board like this one. I can express my disgust at the actions my governement is taking on my behalf, and I'm free to throw up my hands in frustration when you accuse me of "giving aid and comfort to the enemy" when I continue to prove that the Emperor has no clothes on.

Carry on...

 

[gardenweasel]

Korea? Why not try WWI and the Civil War as well, DTB?

While we are at it, why no mention of Afganistan? Didn't we declare "victory" there, too?
Might want to let the Tailiban know that--they are many times stronger than they were since our 'victory' there. The russians spent 20 years bogged down in Afganistan, you'd think we could have got a clue about that area of the world and stayed out of there, but noooooo...

I'm guessing from your incoherent ramblings--would it kill you to form at least ONE complete sentence once in a while?--which is par for the course from you--you think that we "won" the "korean Conflict" as well?

Do you really feel better about yourself that we "won" the invasion of Iraq?

We could put 1,000,000 troops on the ground in Iraq, level the country and we still have not "won" ANYTHING!

Wailing about US causualities?

WTF is that supposed to mean? 3000 american soilders have died in Iraq--

FOR ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!

If thats how you define "wailing" put me down for guilty as charged...

and you continue to insist that we "won" the invasion. Like "winning" the invasion of a 3rd-world, backwater outpost is some sort of huge military victory.
And you try and make it sound as if I don't care about our soliders?
you post some ridiculous stats about the # of soliders killed in Viet Nam like its somehow OK that only 500 or so died(once again--FOR NOTHING!!) when there were only 2000 troops there at that time, and I don't care about troops being killed?
If it makes you sleep better at night, you go right ahead and keep thinking I don't care about the troops.

Don't suppose you saw 'Frontline' last night by any chance?

Never mind answering that one. Since it wasn't shown on the Fox propaganda channel, I KNOW you didn't see it.

This is some classic DTB "logic" here---

"--back to your "when we lose the Iraq War"
its attitudes like that they count on--militarially the war of Iraq was won in days--the final outcome for the people will depend not on our military accomplishments but on our fortitude to remain and see it through till they can stand alone--as we are still doing in korea--or we can let the "non fighting element" decide Iraq'is fate."

Its called living in a free society, Dogs. I know your wet dream is to live in a totalitarian regime so that someone can tell you at all times what to think and feel, but as much as this country has swung in that direction, we are not there yet.

I can express my opposition to my governments' actions and I won't be arrested, or killed--like I would be in many places in this world--
including your favorite place to earn a dishonest dollar these days, China.
""""" I am free to challenge your posts on a message board like this one. I can express my disgust at the actions my governement is taking on my behalf, and I'm free to throw up my hands in frustration when you accuse me of "giving aid and comfort to the enemy" when I continue to prove that the Emperor has no clothes on."""""

Carry on...

pretty nasty to ole` dtb.....he seems a very decent fellow even if you disagree with him.... but,i understand your hysteria..... `

sooo,right-o.......the 1st amendment gives everyone the right to be as stupid as they want to be...it also gives others the right to point it out....

o.k.brain surgeon......here's an assignment for you: go find any newspaper clips from wwII about the various "grim milestones" DURING the war..... when you can show me some of those, i'll believe that maybe this is an appropriate way to celebrate heroism....to help the u.s. and it`s interests...because "losing" in iraq will be the greatest jihadi recruiting tool that we could give them...

here's a "grim milestone" for you...since the msm is in all respects fifth columnists and have done everything to encourage our enemies to kill our soldiers(divulging classiied documents and programs,showing enemy snipers head shooting american g.i.`s etc).... the msm is responsible for x number of deaths in iraq...

s`that bug you?...i didn`t think so..

everyone`s free to debate the war...but,the msm has taken it 10 steps farther...

although the loss of any of our soldiers in action is a tragedy for them and their families and a loss that the rest of us should mourn, it is essential to keep the figures in perspective (something that the msm are too ignorant and stupid to do,much like some on this forum)....

if anyone had told the w2 generation that the losses on their side would 'only' be 3000 over the coming three-and-a-half years of conflict, there would have been street parties thrown throughout the whole of britain and the usa......

in reality, to take one example at random, the r.a.f. lost around 800 men on one single night in february 1944 (as a result of the ill-fated bombing raid on nuremberg)......nobody back then suggested they should just throw in the towel and come home.....

the merits of the conflict in iraq, and the question of whether it serves any great purpose in the struggle against the creeping islamification of the west,were not the main issues in this particular thread......

the real issue that dogs alluded to is the way that our printed and broadcast media are so willing to boost the enemy by screaming for withdrawal (i.e. surrender) at the first sign of any bloodshed.....

it only confirms their(the islamists) belief that the past two generations are self-indulgent weaklings and cowards who are there for the taking.....

i dare you to find a newsreel during ww2 that showed our soldiers getting head shot while a "neutral" journalist took the pictures...

they did not see everything as a fight for left-wing politics versus right-wing.....

they focused on the common enemy instead of playing ivory tower politics at the expense of our boy`s lives...

much of the media's power structure that's in place now cut its teeth during vietnam.....so they still apply the viet nam template, when it simply doesn't fit today's war against radical islam....

a major problem of making comparisons of the war against islamism and wwII is the refusal of those against the former to even acknowledge that there exists a war today.....

every time the subject comes up,the left says,"well, the whole world was at war back then." ..however, you usually get little or no response when you mention the murders by the islamists from thailand to madrid to new york and points in between....been going on for decades...


and you rarely see reports in the msm these days about how many murderous insurgents are killed each day or week.....

the left would shit their pants if the military reported the numbers of insurgent deaths.... you would hear "disproportionate response" way more than "grim milestone" if they did....


btw..yet another example......the bbc is complaining that poor saddam was shouted at and insulted just moments before his death.........poor saddam....

"An extraorindary death for an extraordinary man."/puking....

now onto "grim" news of 3000th soldier......

redsfann...""""Therefore, the North Vietnamese WON the war and no matter how much drivel Americans like to spew out concerning their "superiority and victory" in any number of battles, the fact remains that after the dust settled, the North Vietnamese achieved what they were after and the Super Power of super powers had to put its tail between its legs and slink off home. This book tells you how the North Vietnamese emerged victorious and is worth reading.""""

...everyone read that paragraph twice....spoken like a true patriot...lol

you`re not american are you?........at least,i hope you aren`t an american......the guy`s splooging all over himself discussing the "viet nam" failure....this paragraph speaks volumes...i feel nauseous...

one more thing..get your facts straight....this happened after the dems pulled funding for the good guys and left them hanging in the breeze....causing,as we know,a bloodbath...

nary a battle was lost in viet nam...we can thank the walter cronkites...for helping to weaken american moral...

much like what will probably happen in iraq...

true 5th columnists...much like yourself...

 

[smurphy]

Wow. Weaesel, you just used up your entire quota of ....'s for the remainder of 2007. You really should be more conservative with those things. Many 3rd world families work an entire year just for 1 or 2 ....'s. Gluttony is a sin, you know.

 

[smurphy]

How can the greatest Army on earth with aid of other half of country in civil war lose(as you and liberals like to refer to peace treaty on withdrawel) to any enemy that has no airforce no tanks ect in area. The only possible way for the South to lose is for media and public to force us to withdraw and let our allies get slaughtered- -is there any other way that the the north could have won.--yet you & yours find that answer laughable.
.

If you read 'The Art of War' you will find the answer. We lost that war before it began. Our leaders should have known better - just as they should have in March, 2003.

I think we discussed this a while ago. I asked you if Vietnam would have been worth our loses even if we won. If I recall, I think you said no. Correct me if I'm wrong - that could have been a discussion with someone else.

When we enter a war, it really needs to be out of total necessity. It has to be worth dying for. Nothing about Vietnam was worth dying for . Victory was not crucial for our safety and survival. WW2 - yeah, we needed to win that one. Korea - no. Iraq - no. We get into trouble when our leaders use our great military for non-essential adventures. It's just the way it is - there's no point bitching about the media or anyone else because it's just the way it is. It's disgusting that Bush and company could not recognize this.

Having the greatest armed forces in the world means nothing when they are led by fools.

 

[gardenweasel]

Wow. Weaesel, you just used up your entire quota of ....'s for the remainder of 2007. You really should be more conservative with those things. Many 3rd world families work an entire year just for 1 or 2 ....'s. Gluttony is a sin, you know.

strangely enough,what really galled me was the condescending tone he used when responding to dtb.....who is such a classy guy(i think even you would admit)....

i was following the thread...mindiing my bi`ness....

and i didn`t even respond to the inane afghanistan comments...

 

[gardenweasel]

"Having the greatest armed forces in the world means nothing when they are led by fools".

"having the greatest army in the world means nothing when they are.... forced to fight a politically correct war because of liberal angst".........(there,fixed that for ya`)

ain`t it funny that the ethiopians were able to do what we weren`t able to do in somalia?.....

better hardware and technology?...troops?...

maybe they can help us in iraq and afghanistan....they seem to have the right approach....

of course,they`ll run(the jihadi`s) from a toe to toe fight...they will retreat and hide and start suicide bombings and then their enablers on the left will ooohhhh and aaaaahhh about how they are winning......

at this point,though,it`s great to see someone who can roll on without the ball and chain of an nation hating media on their ankles.....

 

[smurphy]

Are you saying you want to be like Ethiopia? No thanks, I'd rather be an American having to deal with PC angst. First, you wanted to be an Australian, then Canadian, and now Ethiopian. Your like a 5 year old changing his mind of what he wants to be when he grows up.

Seriously, you guys are whining like little liberal bitches.

AR was kind enough to answer directly - I'll give you the same opportunity:

How exactly is this "liberal angst" adversely forcing the troops to fight a "politically correct" war? Keep in mind, we've had policies and treaties in place way before your perceived liberal angst hijacking of America. Just tell me where we would be winning this war, if not for these pesky meddling angst-ridden liberals?

 

[gardenweasel]

let me help you out....a few phrases like "...."quagmire"......"disproportionate response"......."grim milestone".....

i doubt they have any media showing pictures of abused jihadis with skivvies on their heads....or newspapers plastering war strategy or classified info all over their front pages....

now...que the msm to cast ethiopia as aggressor, noting the christian elite oppresses the muslim and animist majority.....

the ethiopians will not be hobbled by any "hearts and minds" rubbish......which is why there should be a nonstop flow of daisy cutters and similar munitions clandestinely provided to our proxy allies....

much as iran is doing in iraq...

thanks for the soft ball....

hope that helps...

 

[kosar]

at this point,though,it`s great to see someone who can roll on without the ball and chain of an nation hating media on their ankles.....

As redsfann noted, and i've mentioned a dozen times, let's take a look at the Big Red Army and their lack of success in Afghanistan. Let's look at the reasons, huh?

I've never taken it further than a relatively superficial level, because nobody has shown the slightest interest in talking about that 'war.' Big shocker.

Was it that crazy anti-government media that caused the Soviets to give it up?

Weasel, that's a question directed at you.

That occupation and conflict is the closest comparison to this Iraq adventure. Vietnam is not close and WW11 DEFINITELY is not close, for f*cks sake.

What in Gods name is wrong with you people who compare a country tearing through Europe, another country who bombed Pearl Harbor with.....Saddam and his non-existent military??? And not one transgression against us??

I love it when you armchair warriors talk about how our contry doesn't have the 'stomach' for useless, meaningless 'wars' against third world nations where we are treading water, at best, and then actually blame the media. That's f*cking hilarious.

It must be soooo nice to have the 'stomach' to support sending young men and women to their death and disfigurement only to F*CK up their country even more.

To deliver it to the Iranian backed shias.

But if only the media......

 

[smurphy]

let me help you out....a few phrases like "...."quagmire"......"disproportionate response"......."grim milestone".....

i doubt they have any media showing pictures of abused jihadis with skivvies on their heads....or newspapers plastering war strategy or classified info all over their front pages....

thanks for the soft ball....

hope that helps...

Softball? Yeah, it is a softball, but your swinging a golf club. You didn't answer the question - not even close.

You are complaining about what some of the media shows and doesn't show - reports and doesn't report. Fine - you hate the media. We all get that.

But the question was:

How exactly is "liberal angst" adversely forcing the troops to fight a "politically correct" war?

I'm talking about the actual fighting - the conflict that is taking place in Iraq. Tell me how we would be winning this actual conflict if not for the media or the liberals. Please answer with something that has to do with actual troops and actual fighting. The media isn't doing the fighting. But it sounds like you believe that if the media simply said "hey, we're winning", then we would be winning.

Kosar - none of these people will ever answer you about the Soviets failure in Afghanistan. The comparisons are simply too similar and it forces them to accept a reality that they've probably looked at this whole mess entirely wrong.

But out of curiosity - Weasel, what's your take on the Soviet/Afghan war? Why do you think the Soviets lost? Was it because of the angs-ridden Russian media?

 

[gardenweasel]

and ,for example,in viet nam...the dmz........we could chase the viet cong only so far....

and this....our state dept....a waste of protoplasm...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061226/ts_nm/somalia_conflict_dc

i’m sure the ethiopians will get a good chuckle out of that.....

in honor of our state dept, the ethiopians should change those 500 lb bombs to 1000 pounders....

they can tell the sniveling bed-wetters at the state dept, “oh, we thought you said use maximum force....sorry for the mix-up, have a nice day.”....

of course, the u.n.will try to make some milquetoast attempt to stop the ethiopians, but we knew that without saying it........

it's a perfect, situation, really.....the u.s. would love to deal with the jihadi`s in somalia, but the political whoopty-do over the world's greatest power invading a poor,black african country would make a real mess of it.....soooo,ethiopia makes a perfect proxy: one african country whipping another one.....



go 'opians!

and btw...smurph....i wonder what THEIR rules of engagment are?...

i doubt they are not allowed to fire unless fired upon, or cannot return fire at a mosque or cemetary.....

i also doubt that the ethopians would hesitate to kill an islamic court member using a human shield.

maybe, thats a reason human shields arent being used there.

maybe......just maybe...., thats why its possible for them to win....:idea:

 

[smurphy]

Yes, those superior Ethiopians. Dude - GO! Join their forces, fight the good fight. Hell, they'll love you over there.

I get it now. When your favorite football team loses, you blame the cheerleaders.

So, what's your take on why the Soviets lost in Afghanistan?

 

[gardenweasel]

Yes, those superior Ethiopians. Dude - GO! Join their forces, fight the good fight. Hell, they'll love you over there.

I get it now. When your favorite football team loses, you blame the cheerleaders.

So, what's your take on why the Soviets lost in Afghanistan?

all due respect,bro,but,i`m not your personal magic 8 ball....

seriously,some of us still have visions of those young naked peace keeping marines/army/special ops being dragged through the streets(with clinton`s non-support,btw).....

and those young, and now fighting age somali ass holes jumping up and down on their dead bodies..

wouldn`t break my heart if they have to bulldoze mile wide trenches to bury all the m.f.`ers.....

 

[kosar]

all due respect,bro,but,i`m not your personal magic 8 ball....

seriously,some of us still have visions of those young naked peace keeping marines/army/special ops being dragged through the streets(with clinton`s non-support,btw).....

and those young, and now fighting age somali ass holes jumping up and down on their dead bodies..

wouldn`t break my heart if they have to bulldoze mile wide trenches to bury all the m.f.`ers.....

lol-

Ask about USSR-Afghanistan, get a rant about Clinton and Somalia. Yep, that seems about right.

 

[kosar]

all due respect,bro,but,i`m not your personal magic 8 ball....

So was it the 'Red media', that made that adventure unsuccessful?

You seem to throw a lot of (what you consider to be, but usually aren't) relevant 'facts' out there about everything under the sun, but now you don't want to be a 'magic 8 ball', huh?

Let's hear one more time about that crippled guy who got thrown off the ship. Please?

 

[gardenweasel]

So was it the 'Red media', that made that adventure unsuccessful?

You seem to throw a lot of (what you consider to be, but usually aren't) relevant 'facts' out there about everything under the sun, but now you don't want to be a 'magic 8 ball', huh?

Let's hear one more time about that crippled guy who got thrown off the ship. Please?

that`s it?.....lets talk about something meaningful TO YOU for a change......like,"what`s your favorite teletubby?"

 

[smurphy]

all due respect,bro,but,i`m not your personal magic 8 ball....

seriously,some of us still have visions of those young naked peace keeping marines/army/special ops being dragged through the streets(with clinton`s non-support,btw).....

and those young, and now fighting age somali ass holes jumping up and down on their dead bodies..

wouldn`t break my heart if they have to bulldoze mile wide trenches to bury all the m.f.`ers.....

OK:com: And you were so bothered by those images that you immediately enlisted so you could fight instead of just spewing rhetoric, right?

Ethiopia awaits, my friend. They'd love to have you and your fighting spirit, I'm sure.

 

[djv]

One thing about the media is I see it from both sides. Only Hannity does not get it. Even O Rilley and I hate to give him credit Rush the Lush agree it's screwed up and going no ware. Even the fight over more or less troops our leaders and generals can't agree. Dam good thing we do have the media keeping us up to date. Just think if Bush was allowed to run wild un checked. What a
disaster.