a quick poll--need some input

marine

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thats like teh 4th time you have posted the lame article about kay griggs.

have you run out of material?

try answering the questions at hand instead of dancing around them.
 

SixFive

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seems like there would be some new information?? All of the pt1gard's cut and pastes (at least the majority) are very old when we're talking about news. Something that happened in 2003 or 2004 is not new. That's grasping...
 

The Judge

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judgy,

nice sheaple tripe :mj07: ...

if you arent a coward why not listen to richard gage debunk your garbage and then comment on it :00hour ... and using mccain as a mouthpiece is hysterical, david ray griffin crucified his 'forward' in his book on the 9/11 commission, course you are oblivious to that ...


click

www.911underground.com

scroll to

2007-09-05_Bonnie_Faulkner_Interviews_Architect_Richard_Gage.MP3



ps do you know more than gage and other experts that arent affiliated with government shills and on their dole
First of all, where the f*ck do you get off calling me a coward? Because I disagree with your drivel, that somehow makes me a sheep? Why is it that those that do not have the wherewithal to actually debate the issues at hand are the first to resort to flaming and name calling? Not once in this thread have I posted a single remark toward you that could be considered to be derogatory. Your propensity to do continually do so is clearly a character flaw.

Secondly, David Ray Griffin is a certified kook and your reference of his opinions only serve to further weaken the feeble case that you are so desperate to make.

Lastly, yes I do know infinitely more about steel framed buildings that Richard Gage who is an architect, not a structural engineer. I HAVE listened to his half baked fairy tale and as you are well aware, I have previously posted evidence that blatantly contradicts his ridiculous claims.
 

pt1gard

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drg a kook, cmon how much of a southern right wing denier can you be ... i lived in dallas 5 years as a kid, came back 20 years later on a reunion and am so grateful i returned to my birthplace seattle for hs ... your thinking is typical of what i found in texas regarding closed mindedness ... you post nonsense and then claim everything else is wrong ... what exactly do you believe happened on 9/11 ... do you believe your texas bred leader and his neocon cronies had no idea what went on ....

lets hear your short version on the official version legend, ive stated mine several times ...

you are yet another than comes back here and states the same tired views and never talks in your own words ... you say all i do is cut and paste, which i often do for research i find intriguing, but i have stated my own views on here more than all the rest of you sheaple have combined
:00hour

ps to say you are wiser than richard gage is a comedy central punchline
:mj07: :mj07:
 
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The Judge

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Why is it that those that do not have the wherewithal to actually debate the issues at hand are the first to resort to flaming and name calling? Not once in this thread have I posted a single remark toward you that could be considered to be derogatory. Your propensity to do continually do so is clearly a character flaw.
Thank you for making my point for me, Gregg.
 

The Judge

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to say you are wiser than richard gage is a comedy central punchline :mj07: :mj07:
One of the characteristics of the 9/11 "truth" movement, and charlatans of all persuasions is that they constantly repeat things, even after they have been proven to be false. Richard Gage, the founder, and as far as I can tell, the only active member of the increasingly inaccurately named Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth put together a ?presentation? which is amateurish at best. He comes off sounding like he just watched Loose Change the night before and is trying to convert some of the folks around the water cooler the next day.

At about 29:40 in his ?presentation?, Gage discusses the insurance companies and how they made out like bandits after 9-11:

"They've raised their premiums 2000 percent on buildings and this payout (to Silverstein) is peanuts compared to this--those premium profits."

What Gage is claiming--that insurance premiums are now 21 times what they used to be--is patently absurd. Insurance premiums (especially premiums on terrorism insurance which is not all that common) rose after 9-11, but they are not even double what they used to be.

This LINK will take you to a press release from the NYC Comptroller?s office that specifically discusses the increases in commercial insurance premiums in New York City following 9/11. The following is an excerpt from that release:

?Businesses located in high-rise buildings in Manhattan, particularly those in, or even near, landmark or "trophy" properties considered by insurers to be at risk of becoming terrorist targets had the greatest increases in premiums. Large sized accounts, with premiums over $1,000,000, experienced an average 73.3% increase per policy, while medium-sized accounts, those paying premiums between $50,000 and $1,000,000, encountered an average increase of 49.5%, and small-sized accounts, which pay premiums of less than $50,000, an average 39% increase.?


More to come on Gage?s ridiculous ramblings.
 

pt1gard

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so no explosions prior to the plane hitting the south tower, judge, like rodriguez has claimed throughout the years ... did he lie ... you dodge tons of questions and come off as an expert on the wtcs ... what exactly are your qualifications to call all architects morons 'cept yourself ...
 

pt1gard

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judge where was norad

judge why did mineta say cheney lied about his arrival time at the white house bunker and then told the aid the order stands as somethign exploded at the pentagon ina 16' hole

judge how did the boxcutters get on planes w/o tickets and then not appear on manifests

judge how did 2 planes evaporate and leave none ot the parts behnd every other crash does

judge why dont you answer these simple queries

judge how did hani manage his fictional flight being an amateur, find me some pilots who would testify that he couldve done it, one they couldnt duplicate in 10 attemtps on siimulators

yanno, its fine for you to be a sheaple, you dont have to open your eyes to thruth and live in your bubble world, but to never answer simple questions such as these listed proves you are the charlatan ... you have fled in the past and will again
:00hour
 

The Judge

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ps to say you are wiser than richard gage is a comedy central punchline :mj07: :mj07:
Richard Gage is the sole source of the "characteristic features" that he presents to us. No team of architects or engineers ever sat down and developed these lists. Indeed, these slides are excellent examples of the logical fallacy called affirming the consequent.

This fallacy is best understood in the old story about a man shooting bullet holes into the side of a barn. Does he become an excellent marksman because he then paints targets around the existing bullet holes?

This is exactly what Gage has done. He describes a number of things about the collapses of these three buildings. He is very often wrong about what he is describing. He then calls them all "characteristic features of controlled demolition."
Why? Because he's the man with the paint can!

It is a free country, and Gage can speak about these matters if he wishes. However, his authority is no reason to accept his arguments. If his presentation of the facts is skewed, and his interpretations flawed, his authority would not matter one bit. He would still be wrong.

Gage likes to surprise his audience with the fact of three buildings falling that day. Most people have never heard of the collapse of 7 World Trade, and on most other days, the collapse of a 47-story building allowed to burn for over seven hours would be news.

But not on 9/11. No one died when Building 7 collapsed. Firefighters and other rescue personnel had been pulled from the area because of the danger of it falling. Its collapse was noticed, and is currently being studied by the National Institute of Standards and Technologies. But in a day of terror and heartache, the media organizations have focused elsewhere.

By the way, five buildings actually were completely destroyed on 9/11 -- these three, St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, and WTC 3. The collapse of the church and the Marriott hotel were even less noticed than 7, but you won't hear about them from Richard Gage because they don't fit his narrative.

You will see the logo of the American Institute of Architects all throughout this presentation. The AIA does not endorse this presentation by any stretch of the imagination. Anyone who is a licensed and degreed architect may join this trade association:

As AIA members, over 80,000 licensed architects, emerging professionals, and allied partners express their commitment to excellence in design and livability in our nation's buildings and communities. Members adhere to a code of ethics and professional conduct that assures the client, the public, and colleagues of an AIA-member architect's dedication to the highest standards in professional practice.

Richard Gage is not engaging in his professional practice here. He is not dealing with the design or the livability of the World Trade Center complex. He is a part of a team that designs and builds buildings, and not part of a team that tears them down.

Therefore, whenever you see the AIA logo, remember that this is an attempt by Gage to enhance his authority to speak about something he has no expertise in. He is propping himself up with this trade association.

GAGE'S BUILDINGS
In this slide form his presentation, Richard Gage shows that he is an architect. There is no disputing this.

ae911-2.PNG


But take a look at the size of the buildings Gage has helped design. None of them are taller than two or three stories.

The twin towers were 110 stories tall, the tallest structures on Earth when they were constructed. Building 7 was a 47-story office building.

Richard Gage doesn't design the types of buildings that he is describing in this presentation. The overall potential energy in the WTC buildings is much, much greater than he is used to dealing with. None of the pictured buildings have the tube-in-tube design of the 9/11 buildings in question. He has no expertise (and thus no special authority) in the structure of the buildings that collapsed on 9/11.

The first thing to notice in this slide is the actual number of professionals that have joined Gage.

ae911-3.PNG


There are currently 80,000 members of the American Institute of Architects. Gage has 14 licensed architects listed on this slide. As of 17 October 2007, there are 34 licensed architects listed at AE911Truth.org.

Now either the 34 or the 80,000 have a serious problem. Truth has been found in smaller ratios before, but authority isn't derived from numbers or expertise necessarily. 80,000 people can be wrong just like 34 people can be wrong.

What matters is the evidence. What matters are the actual facts, rightly seen and rightly interpreted. Experts in a field are more practiced at seeing and interpreting the facts. But the experts can be wrong, and this is one of Richard Gage's arguments.

What we know is that someone here is wrong. Gage's presentation doesn't allow for very much compromise. One group is horribly wrong and one group is right.

This is not to say that all 80,000 members of the AIA not currently members of AE911Truth are absolutely in opposition to Gage's group. However, they arguably are. I would hazard a guess that all of them are aware of these buildings falling down (most certainly the twin towers). Yet only these 34 have seen fit to join Gage's group, and many of them only after viewing Gage's presentation.

By his own admission, Gage has made this presentation many times to groups of building professionals. How many of them have walked away? Gage doesn't share these statistics with us, though he must have a rough idea.

What Gage is most certainly is not is a structural engineer and the number of engineers in his "roster" is even smaller than the number of architects listed. There are only four here, but Gage has managed to get 38 to sign up at the website (as of 17 October 2007).

In September 2006, membership of the American Society of Civil Engineers was just under 140,000. Again, I will mention that not all the members of the ASCE have positively stated their opinion of the WTC collapses. I only mean to show that the members of AE911Truth have a long way to go in convincing their fellow members about their suspicions.

And again I say that Gage has not revealed the number of people who have heard his presentation and not signed his petition.

It should be noted that all engineers are not created equal. Engineers come in many different specialties.

And a look at the Architects & Engineers roster for A&E 911 Truth shows this clearly. Of the licensed engineers that have filled out profiles, there is a sewer and street designer, a specialist in solar energy and housing, a fire protection engineer, another energy engineer, water resource and management, a computer engineer, an asbestos consultant, hazardous waste management, industrial wastewater, computer network engineer, process engineering in the natural gas industry, and a chemical engineer. Clearly all of these people cannot be speaking in their field of expertise here.

Gage does list two structural engineers on his page, however. It would be interesting to hear why they alone of their thousands of colleagues have fallen for this presentation, because I will demonstrate that no one should.

As on the last slide, an appeal to large numbers can be just as fallacious as an appeal to authority. The crucial test is in the way that facts are recognized and interpreted. It is there that either the 38 or the 140,000 will be vindicated.

Gage's organization claims to be speaking on behalf of the People of the United States of America. So many do so nowadays that the People of the United States must be a terribly confused body. I myself being a member of that People, I would like to state for the record than none of those on Gage's lists speak for me.

Dispensing with the patriotic hyperbole, the main claim that Gage must prove in this petition is that such an investigation is needed.

The events of 9/11 are among the most investigated events in world history. The collapses of those three buildings specifically are the subject of several studies and numerous scholarly papers by the scientific community. The National Institute of Standards and Technologies has released its final report on the collapse of the twin towers, and its delayed report on the collapse of 7 World Trade is due any day now. These collapses have been and continue to be investigated.

But Gage believes that these buildings fell because of explosive charges deliberately placed to knock them down. This is not something that Al Qaeda could have pulled off. Gage believes that he is exposing a level of government complicity in these attacks, and that is why he requires a "truly independent investigation with subpeona power."

Extraordinary claims demands extraordinary evidence. Gage's evidence simply does not support his extraordinary claims.

More later . . . . .
 

The Judge

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judge where was norad
Asked and answered:
The Judge said:
Claim: "It has been standard operating procedures for decades to immediately intercept off-course planes that do not respond to communications from air traffic controllers," says the Web site oilempire.us. "When the Air Force 'scrambles' a fighter plane to intercept, they usually reach the plane in question in minutes."

FACT: In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999. With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed. Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet. Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). "Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," FAA spokesman Bill Schumann tells PM. After 9/11, NORAD and the FAA increased cooperation, setting up hotlines between ATCs and NORAD command centers, according to officials from both agencies. NORAD has also increased its fighter coverage and has installed radar to monitor airspace over the continent.

Claim: No fighter jets were scrambled from any of the 28 Air Force bases within close range of the four hijacked flights. "On 11 September Andrews had two squadrons of fighter jets with the job of protecting the skies over Washington D.C.," says the website emperors-clothes.com. "They failed to do their job." "There is only one explanation for this," writes Mark R. Elsis of StandDown.net. "Our Air Force was ordered to Stand Down on 9/11."

FACT: On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked ? the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.

Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. And NORAD's sophisticated radar? It ringed the continent, looking outward for threats, not inward. "It was like a doughnut," Martin says. "There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them.
 
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The Judge

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judge how did 2 planes evaporate and leave none ot the parts behnd every other crash does
Asked and answered:
Flight 77 Debris
Claim: Conspiracy theorists insist there was no plane wreckage at the Pentagon. "In reality, a Boeing 757 was never found," claims pentagonstrike.co.uk, which asks the question, "What hit the Pentagon on 9/11?"

911-flight77-debris.jpg

Aftermath: Wreckage from Flight 77 on the Pentagon's lawn ? proof that a passenger plane, not a missile, hit the building. (Photograph by AP/Wide World Photos)

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

911-flight175windows-l.jpg
 

Kramer

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:00x17 :00x17 :00x17 :00x17



:Kid1: :Kid1: :Kid1: :Kid1:



:00x3


GET A LIFE DUDE :SIB
 

Jabberwocky

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Judge,

My only thought on this was that it looked like a demo job, I was never into missing planes or Zionist conspiracy crap, I just bought into the demo thing, esp with WTC7. Thanks for posting some sanity. I do appreciate your efforts.

Gregg, honestly, if you are convinced of a massive government conspiracy, then the next move is to figure out where to go from here. You have exhausted this subject. You really need to focus on the the next step.
 

maverick2112

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Judge.....

That Popular Mechanics info has been proven to be nothing but dis-info........

Here

Listen to this MP3 file of Popular Mechanics on the Charles Goyette show in Phoenix. Charles has him backpedaling big time. Pass this MP3 file to any one who is leaning on Popular Mechanics to support their continued belief in the official story:

Is this why representatives of Popular Mechanics cancelled appearances on various radio shows.....???

http://www.apfn.net/pogo/A003I060823-am-c3.MP3

THIS IS EXACTLY THE REASON NORMAL MINDED PEOPLE HAVE THERE DOUBTS ABOUT THINGS CONCERNING 911.......THE RESEARCH EDITOR WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FACT CHECKING SOUNDS LIKE ............WELL YOU TELL ME.............

NOW ALSO REMEMBER ALL THE PRESS POPULAR MECHANICS RECIEVED WHILE OTHERS SEEM TO HAVE BEEN SILENCED........WHY
 
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