a quick poll--need some input

pt1gard

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"It's easy to imagine an infinite number of situations where the
government might legitimately give out false information. It's an
unfortunate reality that the issuance of incomplete information
and even misinformation by government may sometimes be perceived
as necessary to protect vital interests."



?US Solicitor-General Theodore "Ted" Olson, Harbury vs. United
States, US Supreme Court, 17 March 2002 (Olson's 3rd wife
Barbara, an ex-federal prosecutor and CNN pundit, was allegedly
murdered on the invisible American Airlines Flight 77 that didn't
crash into the Pentagon).
 

pt1gard

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great article

great article

The Great American Lock-Up
We Are All Prisoners Now
By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS


"They're locking them up today
They're throwing away the key
I wonder who it'll be tomorrow, you or me?"

The Red Telephone (LOVE, 1967)


At Christmas time it has been my habit to write a column in remembrance of the many innocent people in prisons whose lives have been stolen by the US criminal justice (sic) system that is as inhumane as it is indifferent to justice. Usually I retell the cases of William Strong and Christophe Gaynor, two men framed in the state of Virginia by prosecutors and judges as wicked and corrupt as any who served Hitler or Stalin.

This year is different. All Americans are now imprisoned in a world of lies and deception created by the Bush Regime and the two complicit parties of Congress, by federal judges too timid or ignorant to recognize a rogue regime running roughshod over the Constitution, by a bought and paid for media that serves as propagandists for a regime of war criminals, and by a public who have forsaken their Founding Fathers.

Americans are also imprisoned by fear, a false fear created by the hoax of "terrorism." It has turned out that headline terrorist events since 9/11 have been orchestrated by the US government. For example, the alleged terrorist plot to blow up Chicago's Sears Tower was the brainchild of a FBI agent who searched out a few disaffected people to give lip service to the plot devised by the FBI agent. He arrested his victims, whose trial ended in acquittal and mistrial.

Many Europeans regard 9/11 itself as an orchestrated event. Former cabinet members of the British, Canadian and German governments and the Chief of Staff of the Russian Army have publicly expressed their doubts about the official 9/11 story. Recently, a former president of Italy, Francesco Cossiga, said in an interview with the newspaper, Corriere della Sera (November 30, 2007), that "democratic elements in America and Europe, with the Italian center-left in the forefront, now know that the 9/11 attack was planned and executed by the American CIA and Mossad in order to blame the Arab countries, and to persuade the Western powers to undertake military action both in Iraq and Afghanistan."

It is unclear whether Cossiga was being sarcastic about the opinion of skeptics or merely reporting what people think. I have written to him asking for clarification and will report any reply that I receive. Apparently, the Italian media has not offered a clarification.

Cossiga's statement has not been reported by a US newspaper or TV channel. Raising doubts among Americans about the government is not a strong point of the corporate media. Americans live in a world of propaganda designed to secure their acquiescence to war crimes, torture, searches and police state measures, military aggression, hegemony and oppression, while portraying Americans (and Israelis) as the salt of the earth who are threatened by Muslims who hate their "freedom and democracy."

Americans cling to this "truth" while the Bush regime and a complicit Congress destroy the Bill of Rights and engineer the theft of elections.

Freedom and democracy in America have been reduced to no-fly lists, spying without warrants, arrests without warrants or evidence, permanent detention despite the constitutional protection of habeas corpus, torture despite the prohibition against self-incrimination--the list goes on and on.

In today's fearful America, a US Senator, whose elder brothers were:

(1) a military hero killed in action,

(2) a President of the United States assassinated in office,

(3) an Attorney General of the United States and likely president except he was assassinated like his brother, can find himself on the no-fly list.

Present and former high government officials, with top secret security clearances, cannot fly with a tube of toothpaste or a bottle of water despite the absence of any evidence that extreme measures imposed by "airport security" makes flying safer.

Elderly American citizens with walkers and young mothers with children are meticulously searched because US Homeland Security cannot tell the difference between an American citizen and a terrorist.

All Americans should note the ominous implications of the inability of Homeland Security to distinguish an American citizen from a terrorist.

When Airport Security cannot differentiate a US Marine General recipient of the Medal of Honor from a terrorist, Americans have all the information they need to know.

Any and every American can be arrested by unaccountable authority, held indefinitely without charges and tortured until he or she can no longer stand the abuse and confesses.

This predicament, which can now befall any American, is our reward for our stupidity, our indifference, our gullibility, and our lack of compassion for anyone but ourselves.

Some Americans have begun to comprehend the tremendous financial costs of the "war on terror." But few understand the cost to American liberty. Last October a Democrat-sponsored bill, "Prevention of Violent Radicalism and Homegrown Terrorism," passed the House of Representatives 404 to 6.

Only six members of the House voted against tyrannical legislation that would destroy freedom of speech and freedom of assembly and that would mandate 18 months of congressional hearings to discover Americans with "extreme" views who could be preemptively arrested.

What better indication that the US Constitution has lost its authority when elected representatives closest to the people pass a bill that permits the Bill of Rights to be overturned by the subjective opinion of members of an "Extremist Belief Commission" and Homeland Security bureaucrats? Clearly, Americans face no greater threat than the government in Washington.

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review.
 
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The Judge

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The Judge said:
For all of those that insist that the WTC towers were brought down by implosions, please watch the video in the link below. Pay special attention to the sounds of numerous explosions that occur well before the building begins to move at all and then to the clearly visible fireball that comes out of the lowest floors of the building. In order for a building to be safely brought down in this manner, the lower floors must collapse first. The blast at the base is then followed by numerous explosions that progress upward through the structure which are clearly visible.

Nothing in this video even remotely resembles the collapses of the WTC towers.

Building Implosion Video
Gregg, your failure to comment on this is indicative of your close mindedness on an subject that you have clearly already decided on. You continue to avoid and ignore rational debate which does not side with your preconceived notions. To date, that strategy has only worked to make you look silly and I am surprised that you can not see this.

Having said this, I will admit that I have not put the kind of effort into researching this topic that you seem to have but for that matter, who among us has?


I wish you and yours a peaceful and very happy New Year.
 

pt1gard

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judge its all good, but honestly, who has even began to answer the simplest questions i ask ...

you guys always want me to answer everything and rarely speak to mine ... you have tried a couple times i grant you that ... that said, i 100% believe that the towers were blown apart and you dont, weve established that ... one day you will be proven wrong by your own admission IMHO ....

anyhow, thanx for the HNW ... and just bc someone whole heartedly disagrees with you, and believes that reseacrhing something that is by far the most important event of our time is important, hardly makes one a kook :00hour
 

marine

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mahoney,

these guys have never once addressed the dancng israelis hehe .... just like they cant grasp the post 1377 and how it undermines that they cant say the cnn footage was real while saying they never saw a flash or pod or rector bldg vanishing

eat me.


Analysis of Aluminum Impact Flashes in the WTC Crashes
The South Tower jetliner impact exhibited flashes that have been the subject of a great deal of well-publicized but poorly-informed speculation such as a occupies much of the film In Plane Site . In the following, Mark Ferran debunks claims and implications that the flashes were due to missile strikes or the like by pointing to a reasonable explanation.

e x c e r p t
title: WTC Aluminum Impact Flashes
authors: Mark Feram

When Aluminum metal is intensely smashed and shattered or it otherwise burns in air, it emits Bright White LIGHT.

Aluminum bullets travelling at very high fps (mph) shatter/splatter completely, and almost the entire mass bursts into burning particles, and are thus such are called "pyrophoric". Depleted Uranium "Kenetic Energy" projectiles are also notoriously pyrophoric upon their impact-disintegration. The key to producing the flash is the generation of the tiny particles of (heated) metal in air. In the case of bullets, the small projectile must itself contain all the (kenetic) energy needed to shatter/splatter itself, thus speeds of about 3,000 fps are required to impart the necessary energy to a small mass such as an aluminum bullet.

1fps. = .681mph.

1mph. = 1.46fps.

"The 'vaporific effect' refers to the flash fire observed with the impact of high velocity projectiles against metallic targets. The impact produces small, finely divided particles originating from either the projectile, the target, or both. These particles are heated by the impact forces and can burn in the presence of air (oxidizer). The result is a metal-dust-type explosion.... http://www.blazetech.com/.../vaporific_effects.html
It requires only a very small amount of burning Aluminum metal to emit a white light momentarily brighter than the Sun: "Flash powder". Aluminum or magnesium powder mixed with an oxidizer results in a "flash powder" that can be used to generate a bright flash of light and a loud bang. Flash powder can be used as a light source for night photography." http://www.vectorsite.net/ttpyro_2.html Similarly, an aluminum "cotton" fiber was used in older "flash cubes" to simulate sunlight for cameras.

A large piece of aluminum moving at a lesser speed than that speed which completely and entirely shatters/splatters the whole mass of the aluminum metal, is also likely to emit some aluminum particles and hence a flash of light, at the leading point of impact, because the whole mass of the rigid metal object contributes energy to shatter/splatter the smaller mass of aluminum at the leading point of impact.

General Partin says vonKleist omits the most obvious explanation. "It's very simple," he told The New American, "When the noses of the aircraft hit the buildings, you have a bright aluminum flash, the same as we saw at the Pentagon. That's obvious to anyone familiar with physics, chemistry, and what happens when aluminum hits a structure at a high rate of speed." And the proof of that analysis, the general points out, is in vonKleist's own video. "If you watch just a few frames after the nose flash, you'll see two smaller aluminum flashes as each engine strikes the building. That's all it is."
http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/publish/printer_1253.shtml
At this link is a video of a small "F4" aircraft on a track crashing in a test to assess the safety of a nulcear reactor. http://www.jokaroo.com/extremevideos/plane_vs_wall.html

The F4 plane apparently has a non-aluminum nose-cone, however when the first metal (aluminum?) part of the nose strikes the concrete wall, a small White Flash of light is distinctly visible in the video (see the especially the second view with the aircraft approaching from the right).

Although "aluminum flash" is easily and typically observed with small projectiles (bullets) at self-shattering/splattering speeds (e.g., above 3000 fps), if you strike a small piece of aluminum metal between two very heavy masses, (for example between an iron building and an aircraft traveling 500mph), some of the aluminum metal squashed between these rigid masses will be intensely heated and ejected as small hot particles which will ignite in the air, producing a bright flash of Light. The large masses (moving relatively towards each other) provide the additional energy necessary to shatter/splatter the smaller amount of aluminum and to produce the ejected particles that burn in air and emit white light.

Impact-flashes of aluminum aircraft are considered to be commonplace by experts like "General Partin", and given the obvious ignorance and bias of most of the writers and "scholars" among the 9-11 Historical Revisionists ... I have no reason to believe that such impact flashes are not commonplace. [To the right] are images capturing impact-flash of the second aluminum airplane that hit the iron WTC towers. Also note that the face of the WTC towers where clad with sheets of aluminum, which would also be a source of aluminum for impact-flashes.

"Nearly all metals will burn in air under certain conditions." http://www.eh.doe.gov/techstds/standard/hdbk1081/hbk1081c.html

Iron Burns, especially when it is red-hot, and evidently it can melt itself when it burns in a large enough pile furnace. Aluminum Burns with a Flash, especially when it is spattered/shattered at high speed, and thus finely divided and hot.

Mark Ferran BSEE scl JD mcl www.billstclair.com/ferran
 

Mahoney

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ODIGO INSTANT MESSAGES

There is ample evidence that many Israelis were forewarned of the attacks through an Israeli instant messaging service called Odigo. This story, which presents the clearest evidence of Israeli prior knowledge of the attacks, was reported only very briefly in the U.S. media ? and then completely forgotten and deleted.

According to the news reports, at least two Israel-based employees of Odigo reported having received warnings of an imminent attack in New York City hours before the first plane hit the WTC.

Odigo, an Israeli-owned company had its U.S. headquarters only two blocks from the World Trade Center, yet Odigo failed to pass the warning it had received on to the authorities in New York, a move that would have saved thousands of lives.

Two weeks after 9-11, Alex Diamandis, Odigo's vice president, said, "The messages said something big was going to happen in a certain amount of time, and it did ? almost to the minute."

"It was possible that the attack warning was broadcast to other Odigo members, but the company has not received reports of other recipients of the message," Diamandis said.

Based on the Israeli government figure that some 4,000 Israelis were expected to be in the World Trade Center at the time of the attacks, it seems evident that many Israeli Odigo users got the message.

Odigo, which offers real-time messaging, has a feature called "People Finder" which allows a user to send an instant message to a large group based on a common characteristic, such as Israeli nationality. "People Finder" allows Odigo users to search for online "buddies," with filters like Israeli nationality, while maintaining user privacy at all times.

The Internet address of the sender of the warning was reportedly given to the FBI. Two months later it was reported that the FBI was still investigating the matter. Since then there have been no further media reports about the Odigo warning of 9/11.

As AFP has previously reported, Odigo, like Comverse and other Israel-based software companies, is really headquartered in Herzliya, Israel, the suburb of Tel Aviv where Israeli military intelligence headquarters are located.

Typically, with these Israeli-intelligence linked outfits, the company's research and development, and any manufacturing, such as the "black box" computer surveillance equipment produced by Comverse, is all done in Israel. The U.S. offices merely function as distribution, marketing, and financial centers.
 

marine

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Mahoney,

That article has been brought up by The Lizard King once before and it has been debunked, it's in this thread already.

To sum it up,

WTC was not named as a target
The instant message was sent to people that were physically in Israel, not NYC.





"...Odigo, the instant messaging service, says that two of its workers received messages two hours before the Twin Towers attack on September 11..."

"...Diamandis today in a telephone interview also said the warning
message did not identify the World Trade Center as the attack
target. "

"...Alex Diamandis, vice president of sales and marketing, confirmed
that workers in Odigo's research and development and international
sales office in Israel received a warning from another Odigo user
approximately two hours prior to the first attack. "
http://amenusa.org/prior.htm (http://amenusa.org/prior.htm)

Even if they did warn employees in the US (which it appears they did not), Odigo was not even located in the WTC:

"...Odigo's New York office is located four blocks from the site of the World Trade Center..."
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/09/WTC_Odigo2.html (http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/09/WTC_Odigo2.html)
 

Mahoney

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Yeah, sure, Marine.

There were no Israelis killed in the WTC. Not one.

Almost every other nation on earth had people killed in the WTC, but not Israel.

That doesn't happen by chance.

Especially not when you've got a Mossad team in place "documenting" 9/11 before the planes ever hit.

Quit trying not to see the truth, Marine.

That could have been you on the USS Liberty.
 

marine

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Then help me draw the line....

IM sent to two people in israel saying that america will pay. (no location or identifier and it is an anonymous message)

israel people do nothing with it assuming it is a hoax.

WTC collapses

no israelis killed is due to two employees not forwarding a blank threat message
Hence,

Israel is responsible for the attack.

I'm having a tough time following the pieces.
If it really was an inside job and so well and thoroughly planned out... what was the purpose for that IM to go thru anyway to save the israelis? wouldn't "the planners" have already come up with a way to ensure that none of "their people" were in the building?

Help me reach your conclusion that this supports the conspiracy theory.
 

Mahoney

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Then help me draw the line....

IM sent to two people in israel saying that america will pay. (no location or identifier and it is an anonymous message)

israel people do nothing with it assuming it is a hoax.

How do you know any of this - what the message contained, who received it, what the recipients did with it?

You seem to be implying the sender was claiming credit, but according to the Israeli paper, the message was sent two hours before the attack. It appears the message was intended to warn people. And Odigo in fact is headquartered in NYC, according to Haaretz.

Odigo is a U.S.-based company whose headquarters are in New York, with offices in Herzliya.

no israelis killed is due to two employees not forwarding a blank threat message

How do you know who received what, or to whom he/they forwarded it? You're speculating.

I'm having a tough time following the pieces.

Put them together and see the picture. The Odigo messages are but one shiny tile in a mosaic.

How it is that a group of dancing, laughing Israelis, at least two of whom are Mossad operatives, is taping the WTC before the planes hit?

If it really was an inside job and so well and thoroughly planned out... what was the purpose for that IM to go thru anyway to save the israelis? wouldn't "the planners" have already come up with a way to ensure that none of "their people" were in the building?

I would think so - "their people" being Mossad. With Odigo being right there in NYC, perhaps the message sender simply wanted to make sure that no one wandered into the WTC that morning. And in fact, there were no Israelis killed in the WTC demolition, so the known warning and whatever other information was disseminated we don't know about, did the trick. It's about as likely as a flipped quarter landing on its edge that you could walk into the WTC and not find one Israeli. NYC is the most Jewish city in the world, the WTC is crawling with financiers and the like - and not a single Israeli is killed. Too remarkable to be a coincidence, especially when taken in conjunction with the other known facts.

Marine, the big thing here is the pattern. The Mossad's motto is "by way of deception..." It specializes in false flags. It has a history and pattern into which the WTC demolitions fits perfectly, including:

- USS Liberty attack (was to be blamed on Egypt, but the IDF failed to sink the ship)
- the LaBelle disco attack in Berlin (successfully blamed on Libya by means of a planted transmitter, resulting in Reagan/U.S. bombing Libya and killed a few dozen; two US servicemen were killed in the disco bombing)
- Mossad refusal to pass on knowledge that the US Marine Corps barracks in Lebanon was to be bombed (cited earlier in this thread - comes from Victor Ostrovsky, former Mossad agent)
- King David hotel blown up (kills dozens; Israelis attempt to blame it on Arabs until caught)
- Lavon Affair - (Mossad plants explosives, including in an American installation, attempts to blame Egypt; fails when one of its guys is caught)

We don't have absolute proof that OJ killed Nicole, but we do have enough circumstantial evidence to put it beyond reasonable doubt. So it is with "9/11." It was produced by a combination of Zionist Israelis and dual-citizens in America in order to draw the U.S. into war in the Middle East, with the design of reshaping it to Israel's liking.
 
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marine

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I'm not speculating anything.

"...Odigo, the instant messaging service, says that two of its workers received messages two hours before the Twin Towers attack on September 11..."

"...Diamandis today in a telephone interview also said the warning
message did not identify the World Trade Center as the attack
target. "

"...Alex Diamandis, vice president of sales and marketing, confirmed
that workers in Odigo's research and development and international
sales office in Israel received a warning from another Odigo user
approximately two hours prior to the first attack. "
http://amenusa.org/prior.htm (http://amenusa.org/prior.htm)

Even if they did warn employees in the US (which it appears they did not), Odigo was not even located in the WTC:

"...Odigo's New York office is located four blocks from the site of the World Trade Center..."
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/09/WTC_Odigo2.html (http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/09/WTC_Odigo2.html)
 

marine

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reread your article you posted about odigo and your statement that they are "headquartered in NY"
As AFP has previously reported, Odigo, like Comverse and other Israel-based software companies, is really headquartered in Herzliya, Israel, the suburb of Tel Aviv where Israeli military intelligence headquarters are located.
Typically, with these Israeli-intelligence linked outfits, the company's research and development, and any manufacturing, such as the "black box" computer surveillance equipment produced by Comverse, is all done in Israel. The U.S. offices merely function as distribution, marketing, and financial centers.
 

marine

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See what happens when you make things up? you contradict the article that YOU posted as "proof"

It makes you look dumb.

Clearly there is no reasoning with you either. I wish I was able to disregard facts, and just ignore them when making wild assed guesses on things, but I just can't bring myself to do it.
 

Mahoney

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The fact that Odigo is tied to Israeli intelligence is highly telling. Somebody was trying to make sure that no employees in NYC wandered into the WTC that morning, is how I read it.

BTW, I was quoting Haaretz, which says the HQ of Odigo is in fact in NYC.
 

Mahoney

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The Haaretz story...

Odigo says workers were warned of attack
By Yuval Dror

Odigo, the instant messaging service, says that two of its workers received messages two hours before the Twin Towers attack on September 11 predicting the attack would happen, and the company has been cooperating with Israeli and American law enforcement, including the FBI, in trying to find the original sender of the message predicting the attack.

Micha Macover, CEO of the company, said the two workers received the messages and immediately after the terror attack informed the company's management, which immediately contacted the Israeli security services, which brought in the FBI.

"I have no idea why the message was sent to these two workers, who don't know the sender. It may just have been someone who was joking and turned out they accidentally got it right. And I don't know if our information was useful in any of the arrests the FBI has made," said Macover. Odigo is a U.S.-based company whose headquarters are in New York, with offices in Herzliya.

As an instant messaging service, Odigo users are not limited to sending messages only to people on their "buddy" list, as is the case with ICQ, the other well-known Israeli instant messaging application.

Odigo usually zealously protects the privacy of its registered users, said Macover, but in this case the company took the initiative to provide the law enforcement services with the originating Internet Presence address of the message, so the FBI could track down the Internet Service Provider, and the actual sender of the original message.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=77744

I took the liberty of bolding it, Marine, since reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.
 
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marine

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again,

please connect the dots for me as I fail to understand how this fits into the conspiracy theory.

unless you are a huge anti semite, then its pretty obvious.
 
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