Abortion Poll

[ozball]

Six-Five,

I am against the death penalty except in cases of absolutely no doubt. These are few and far between. There have been so many miscarriages of justice over the last few years (proven so with DNA evidence) that I am leery of killing someone on the basis of evidence "beyond reasonable doubt". There are many deserving of the death penalty, including the serial killers mentioned above.

Unfortunately the death penalty is applied disproprtionately to those in the lowest strata of society, without the resources (financial and intellectual) to defend themselves.

the death penalty has been shown NOT to work as a deterrent.

My view on abortion is that other options should be presented as first option...adoption etc, and that it should only be a very last resort. Birth control and sex education should be made available widely and should be openly discussed.

Again, a paradox...the most strident anti-abortionists are also often against sex education in schools, and bitrh control. "just say no" just doesn't work in the real world...

ozball

 

[djv]

It a great subject. But for a election year with huge problems. This and gay marrages would be about 7 & 8 on my list of 10.
Let them choose. Or as Kosar said no option period. But remember it wont just be the poor sneaking into the alleys of the country to still have it done. Then the mothers are really at risk. At least now its safer for them.

 

[pirate fan]

I call it a constent ethic of life. Something Cardinal Joseph Bernadine of Chicago used to say. Life must be protected at all times, whether in the womb, death penalty, or in the last stages of life. We as humans cannot take life from anyone, we are not gods and should not have that choice to do so.

 

[djv]

Now how do we say we should not have the right to smoke we know it's killing us. We should not drink to much it will kill us.
Death Penalty is always interesting. It seems you can find those who believe that's ok. But abortion is not.

 

[kickserv]

pirate quote:


"We as humans cannot take life from anyone, we are not gods and should not have that choice to do so"


not sure what world you live in, but every day we humans decide what life to "take". Clearly you believe in a god (I do not) but you might be interested in knowing that "taking a life" is not just up to your god.

Cracks me up, as to how people use arguements like "Cardinal Joseph Bernadine says" or "the bible says" to justify their thoughts. Yes, sure you are entitled to your opinion but there is no basis on what you are saying. :shrug:


If I said "my butcher stan says" that abortion is wrong...how would you react


oh..........I also love how the "pro lifers" care so deeply about the child being born, but as soon as the child is born......they could care less. I mean it's 2004 and you still have some people against the friggen pill!!!! Millions of unwanted children in the world, living in horrific conditions, struggling to survive.......but hey I'll get my sign and yell and scream at some lady going into an abortion clinic. Please......gimmie a break :nono:

 

[pirate fan]

Kickserve, I was not defending my stance with what someone else says, the term "consistent ethic of life" was created by Cardinal Bernadine and he has written papers and given speeches to congress and a host of others about it. I merely was agreeing with his stance. Yes people do take life everyday and many do live in terrible conditions. Those who don't though maybe have a responsibility to help others that need it. I know this is another pandora's box and I'm not looking to open it as this forum and thread have proven we all have differing ideas on faith and morals. This has been an excellent thread as we have not gotten into the name calling, but have shared ideas and views, which I am always interested in hearing the why from whatever the opposing camp may be. I will always be opposed to the taking of life and for those who live in terrible conditions, I do try to help as I work in soup kitchens and overnight shelters. You may be interested to know that I own my own small business and am very republican. I don't generally stand around complaining about life but I actually try to work at it as I'm sure most of us in this forum do. I'm not taking a shot at anyone but just saying that you can't generalize all right to lifers as this or that or right to choice as this or that. Each person is unique.

 

[bjfinste]

Considering that this forum is made up of largely white males, I will say that I am completely stunned that the voting right now is 44-24 in favor of choice. I applaud you all.

 

[SixFive]

Considering that this forum is made up of largely white males, I will say that I am completely stunned that the voting right now is 44-24 in favor of choice. I applaud you all.

I've always said the forum is majority liberal or perhaps at least a little left of center. I know many like Eddie Haskell think differently, but this poll helps to prove that point as I think white males nationally are split almost down the middle if not a little heavy on the pro-life side.

 

[ctownguy]

:iagree: six-five

 

[greg]

44-24 against life ...

 

[kosar]

44-24 against life ...

 

[AR182]

dawgball quote:"Just like aborting the baby will not make the rape go away,"


no you won't make the rape go away but the mother doesn't have to be reminded how her child was born. you're also terminating the rapist's genes.


the poll here is not a true indication how the members here feel about the abortion issue because i'm sure that posters voted more than once.

 

[Senor Capper]

how is that possible

how is that possible

that one can vote more than once ?

and she doesn't have to be reminded.
Adoption.
There are those who would give their third leg :tongue for a just a chance to adopt.

 

[TossingSalads]

Who voted more than once? it diasables the voting prompt after you vote.

 

[AR182]

sorry if i'm wrong. i just thought you can vote one day, then come back the next day & vote again.




i re-did(is there such a word?) this post, because i see my good friend, sc scratching his head in bewilderment (lol)

 

[Senor Capper]

:thinking:

 

[Marco]

Just to comment on some things...

Six-five brought up the issue about why we don't just take all the elderly, infirm, incontinent people and roll thier wheelchairs into a crematorium.....

I think that most people would view this in a different light....that one would compare the old and infirm as being a totally separate entity with earned and established rights.....and that the abortion issue is about women's rights and whether or not the rights of the fetus are equal to or superior to a woman's rights....

most euthanasia killings are viewed as a stranger on stranger crime where as abortion is viewed as a woman doing something to her own body as a form of birth control.........

As far as euthanasia.......that's another complicated issue with variances and degrees of severity and personal rights involved...I just hope when I get old and gray and life looks bleak and hopeless....maybe then I'm dying of some uncurable disease.....that Kevorkian is still around....He'll be like 160 years old and I'll be 80.....that there is personal freedom to die with dignity than to die from some incurable disease that withers the body away, that we have watched hundreds of thousands if not millions of people die from with no cure in sight.....

Abortion is a complicated issue and the circumstances and factors behind each woman's decision whether or not to carry out the pregnancy are very individualized.....

I see some people in this thread claiming that a life is a life and all life must be sacred and preserved......during the course of my travels in a normal day at certain times I see people, some of them young.......they are in wheelchairs and all crippled up from some disease or type of birth defect or retardation.....in fact there is one such type a couple blocks from my workplace......this young person is totally confined to a wheelchair, in fact I don't think I've ever seen him move his head even......

When I think about people like these and I think about how healthy I am and all the things I can do and all the opportunity and possibility there is in my life.......then I think about the person in the chair and what they must be going through....if they even have any idea where they're at or what's going on.....will they ever have anything near the things I have in my life, or the opportunity?

Probably not. Will they get married or have a girlfriend or even experience sex.......will they be employable or be able to ever take care of themselves or have a family of thier own and experience any of the things that we, as healthy human beings enjoy? Probably not. In all probability thier parents are thier caretakers and possibly, if there are no other siblings, thier only source of love and care and once thier parents die they become wards of the state.

I'm not saying we should just kill these people, but I think of life in terms of QUALITY and not quantity......to me living doesn't mean much if I'm 100 and I've lived the last 30 years as a vegetable......I think people look at life through thier own experiences and not necessarily the experience of the person who has to live that life......that maybe more time should be spend considering that whoever comes into this world will probably live about 80 years......this 80 years will be highly computerized, complex, and demanding.....sometimes I wonder, if these crippled up people were born in that condition.....if it wouldn't have been better to have terminated that pregnancy, in light of the reality of the condition and quality of the person who had to live that life.....

 

[dr. freeze]

Same question to Dr Freeze on that one...

It is a paradox in our society that tha most adamant "Pro-life" exponents are also often the loudest defenders of the death penalty....Death row inmates would seem to be past that critical implantation stage...

ozball

good to hear that dawg

great analogy....can't think of any difference to the administration justice of an unborn baby and a murderer

how could the right wing fanatics let the baby live and kill the murderer?

how could the left wing intellectuals let the murderer live and kill the baby?

 

[dr. freeze]

Then I assume you wouldn't have a problem with any woman, raped or not, 'preventing implantation' within 11 days of sex?

not within 11 days since the time is variable but definitely the first 2-3

if abortion were considered murder at this stage than each pregnancy woudl be consistent with murder because each of the cells which "could" develop into a human do not....at the 16 cell stage i could take all of those cells, implant them, and have 16 babies....in reality some of these cells die, some live to be placenta and some baby.....

other than that, there is no argument.....can't be wrong with takign a life if that is what you are doing....plenty of choices before implantation available to women as i already mentioned.....

there is just absolutely no room for error on the pro-abortion side of things......and i don't see why rational people don't get that

 

[dawgball]

if abortion were considered murder at this stage than each pregnancy woudl be consistent with murder because each of the cells which "could" develop into a human do not

This makes no sense even though we are on the same side of the abortion question.

sometimes I wonder, if these crippled up people were born in that condition.....if it wouldn't have been better to have terminated that pregnancy, in light of the reality of the condition and quality of the person who had to live that life.....

All I can say to this is volunteer at a Special Olympics or other function such as this some day. This particular opinion of yours will probably be changed in a matter of minutes. Personally, I have a cousin who has Down syndrome, and he lives a very normal life. He does not have all of the physical luxuries that we do, but it has not slowed him down as a person.

no you won't make the rape go away but the mother doesn't have to be reminded how her child was born. you're also terminating the rapist's genes.

Aborting the baby is not the answer to getting past a traumatic moment such as rape, IMO. I respect your thoughts here, AR, but I do not agree. Also, I feel that rape is a nurtured trait as much or more so than a natural trait. Once again, I am not expert on this subject, though.

I think the bottom line is drawn whether or not someone feels that the baby is a human life. If so, at what point do you feel that way? Conception, Second Trimester (which would be a really dumb answer, IMO), birth, first birthday? I personally feel it is a human life that should be respected at conception. Even though I am Catholic I did not grow up with this opinion. I have formed this over the last ten years as I have paid attention to friends, family members, and now my wife go through pregnancy.