Abortion

[SixFive]

Indeed, I think this is the real question. Do we value the life of the mother or the life of something that lacks the capacity to suffer? Do we value life, or a good life. Personally, I think everyone deserves a shot at a good life, not just life.

I value life from start to finish. If there is a chance we can snuff out a crappy life before it starts, I think we need to consider it. Why put (future) people in an unwinnable situation from the word go? It doesn't make sense. In the book Freakonomics, there is a section that talks about the effect of Roe v. Wade on crime. Kids that were bound to be criminals were never born and the crime rate started to drop as all of the those would be criminals would have been turning into adults. Am I saying that we should abort the children of the poor? Heck no. I'm saying that if we can't bring children into a good situation (good is to be intrepreted by the mother/father) then we shouldn't bring them in. For every story about a child that was almost aborted and grew up successful, we have hundreds that turned out to be menaces/burdens to society.

I truly wish that the people that rail against the inhumanity of abortion would turn their attention to the war....where actual people are being killed.

PS: Clint, I think euthenasia should be legal. It's about quality of life. I'm not sayig we should start killing the old people, but I do think that people that are suffering deserve the right to end their life on their terms.

I guess I hate euthenasia more than I hate abortion. I see that as a horribly slippery slope.

Here's a depiction and a picture of 12 week old fetuses that are now legal to suck out of the uterus and be killed. It's not an issue of privacy nor is it an issue of choice. it's about right and wrong and life and death.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Let me guess, all of the "pro-lifers" in here support the death penalty. Life is sacred. Gotcha.

 

[bjfinste]

I don't consider an unborn fetus to being a living person, or a baby. I consider it an extension of the mother, and mother can do what she pleases. So you can piss and moan and whine all you want about it being "killing babies", but I'll never see it that way and, thankfully, a majority of America doesn't either.

 

[VaNurse]

I think every man should have one before telling
a woman if she can.

I agree with this with one small change..... I think every man should find himself in the position to have to make the choice before telling a woman if she can.

It appears that I am the first woman to speak out on this thread. (If there are others, I don't recognize it by the screenname.) I think one needs to be in the situation to have to make one of the most difficult decisions one can make before being able to make this argument. I don't believe in abortion as a means of birth control but I don't condone the potential ruination of a young woman's future based on a few seconds of ignorance and lust.

It is unfortunate that humans don't have a switch they can activate when they want sex to result in a baby but we don't. I am thankful that Roe vs Wade eliminated the backstreet abortions that claimed the lives of many young women whose bodies already survived to maturity. A fetus under 12 weeks gestation is not viable to live and breathe without extreme heroic measures (and if it does survive, will quite likely have permanent disabilities). With all due respect 6-5, your illustration shows that a 12 week fetus has all the appearance of a term baby but so does a doll. Neither is capable of sustaining independent life.

In 1975, a teenage girl was thankful that Roe vs Wade had resolved the legality. It allowed her to make the decision and live with it rather than the strongly considered choice of suicide. Ironically, she found herself later unable to bear children for reasons totally unrelated to the abortion. In retrospect, would she have made the same choice? It was the best choice to be made at the time and yes, I would. I don't consider myself a murderer and feel pain that there are those of you who do.

I feel this is a topic and decision best kept within the confines of one's personal family and circle of friends and will never be resolved by public debate. In the argument of abortion, no one is absolutely right and no one is absolutely wrong. It is a personal decision for the woman to make and she, and only she, should have to accept the consequences of that choice.

 

[escarzamd]

That was just perfect:toast:

Only correction on a technical point.......a 12 wk fetus is not viable.......period. We do not have the capability to salvage life out of pre-terms until at least 20 wks..........in reality the answer is 23-25 wks. Just won't happen with all the "heroism" that can be mustered.......

http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Content/AbortionTimeLimits~Factors~viability

Last year in Miami had a 21 wk 4d survivor........earliest I could find......true "miracle" for the sky-pilots out there to hang onto!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17237979/

I hate for reality to intrude on this miracle, but the dollar costs for this effort (she's still alive, neurological abilities yet to be determined) were tremendous......had to be near $1 million.......which the hospital will eat for PR purposes. Couple that with the cost of the mother using in vitro fertilization to conceive, and this becomes a true "golden" child.

 

[SixFive]

That was just perfect:toast:

Only correction on a technical point.......a 12 wk fetus is not viable.......period. We do not have the capability to salvage life out of pre-terms until at least 20 wks..........in reality the answer is 23-25 wks. Just won't happen with all the "heroism" that can be mustered.......

http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Content/AbortionTimeLimits~Factors~viability

Last year in Miami had a 21 wk 4d survivor........earliest I could find......true "miracle" for the sky-pilots out there to hang onto!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17237979/

I hate for reality to intrude on this miracle, but the dollar costs for this effort (she's still alive, neurological abilities yet to be determined) were tremendous......had to be near $1 million.......which the hospital will eat for PR purposes. Couple that with the cost of the mother using in vitro fertilization to conceive, and this becomes a true "golden" child.

a baby that is born too early won't live. Sad but true. A baby that is aborted, if left alone, would live. I don't see how your argument applies or what it has to do with abortion.

 

[escarzamd]

True......

Just info related to the 12 wk pictures, I suppose......

I believe in the woman's right to choose. That's where I stand. Its not "murder" in my mind. I personally can't separate the ability to save the life from the question, overall. This thread started on the "legal" aspects of this hairy-assed topic, as a basis for Joe to drop his opinion that its "murder." Any and all information related to it should be heard........otherwise we're just lobbing spitballs at each other and turning this topic into "Tastes Great/Less filling" or the eternal "Chicken vs Egg" match-up.

Let's face it........legal or not, its going to happen.......better safely for the patient
than the horrid image of a basement and a coat hanger. I just can't consider it a "soul" being "murdered." :shrug: Maybe that just makes me a bad man........but I'm pretty sure I've got a few lives on the books that would say something else.

Comments on VA Nurse??

 

[gardenweasel]

Let me guess, all of the "pro-lifers" in here support the death penalty. Life is sacred. Gotcha.

only in the sickest,most moral equivalency indoctrinated liberal mind could a comparison be drawn between the destruction of an innocent child to be (if that suits you) and the execution of a convicted murderer....


a remedial course in logic and morality seems appropriate...

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

a remedial course in logic and morality seems appropriate...

Since when do you believe in logic?

:rimshot

 

[gardenweasel]

good to see you back,gmro...... ..we`re still buds,i hope...:mj06:

i wanted to kick this moral equivalence thing wocky brought up around.....the comparison to taking innocent life vs the life of a murderer...

all life is =...so,hows about this nut that ran into the missouri municipal building and offed 6 people trying to kill the mayor...

say the scenario was different....say he ran in and proclaimed that he only wanted to kill the mayor...nobody else...

say he got the drop on the mayor and was holding a gun to his head...he says,"i`m gonna shoot the mayor and then throw my gun down"....

and say,for argument`s sake that a sniper had the gunman in his sights.....

it`s only one life either way,right?...he`s only gonna kill the mayor....so,the mayor`s life is no better or worse than the gunman`s....

why kill the gunman?...it`s only one life and the gunman`s life is every bit as precious as the mayor`s.....right?...

what right do we have to kill the gunman?...

after all,we have moral equivalence....it`s all life...morality be damned....common sense be damned...


i know its absurd to venture into la la land.....but,you guys live in the theoretical world....

so,why kill the gunman?...if he shoots the mayor and then turns to shoot at someone else,then shoot him...otherwise,it`s only one life either way...

just suspend all logic and morality...who are we to say who dies and who lives?....

 

[gardenweasel]

btw...just to be clear....i just didn`t like that analogy...

we`ve all made our mistakes in our youth....i doubt that anybody`s "for" abortion or would want their sister,daughter,wife,lover etc to go through the procedure considering the risk and all the mental and moral angst involved...

but i wouldn`t presume to tell any woman whether or not she can have one.....it`s not my decision..

i do think that it`s a state`s issue... not federal....

but,i do think there should be some limitations on how long you can wait before having an abortion....i can`t imagine any "adult" with a conscience having a late term abortion....but,thats me...


and i certainly think that underage girls should absolutely have to get parental consent....

for god`s sake,young girls have to get parental consent to go on a field trip....

thats it for me....

 

[Jabberwocky]

GW, I think this is you at your thoughtful and insightful best. This is why I continue to engage you. I would never make a moral equivalence between killing a convicted murderer and abortion.

The very relevant point of the absolute infalibility of our court system aside (innocent men have been put to death. There is doubt about this given modern day genetic analysis. I can obviously back this up with numerous instances of innocent men being put to death for crimes they did not commit, but I digress.)

The bigger issue is that, even if abortion is the taking of a human life, which is debatable, I don't want to get into it as I personally do not believe in abortion. But I will defer to the other posts on the point of whether it is or it is not killing and the issue of choice.

My point is that if you believe that "Thou shall not kill" is an absolute principle, then you must be consistent. If you believe in the death penalty, no matter what the circumstances, then you must accept that you do not see this principle as absolute. You must accept it as relative. And if you think that the killing of human beings is relative, then you have already slid down the slippery slope, and cannot stand on any religious or absolute principles.

On a very personal note, I got my girlfriend pregnant when in my early 20's. I wanted to raise the child, I wanted to marry her and raise my child, but I would have raised it whether she was there or not. I had no say. I am now in my mid 30's and I cannot begin to explain the sadness that is with me now, and will be with me for the rest of my days. It was the most tragic event of my life that I will always struggle with.

 

[gardenweasel]

i`ve been there ,too,wocky...i`m actually more comfortable saying that on an anonymous internet forum than i would be saying it to a personal friend....

would be pretty hypocritical of me to slam anyone that believes a woman should have some choice in such a personal matter...

and let me say..this is why i love and respect the libs and the misguided in this forum... yourself/gmro/chad/the doc/djv the whole bunch(wtf happened to kosar and smurph?) etc...

we can smack each other around,get our vagina`s all enflamed,and move on to fight another day without taking it all personally...

i mean it`s a political/religious forum and by its very nature,its going to be a tad "prickly"....particularly considering the upcoming election....

take it easy...

 

[Jabberwocky]

right back at you gw.

 

[AR182]

i wouldn`t presume to tell any woman whether or not she can have one.....it`s not my decision..

i do think that it`s a state`s issue... not federal....

but,i do think there should be some limitations on how long you can wait before having an abortion....i can`t imagine any "adult" with a conscience having a late term abortion....but,thats me...

and i certainly think that underage girls should absolutely have to get parental consent....

for god`s sake,young girls have to get parental consent to go on a field trip....

this is a tough, volailte issue to debate & am only voicing my position because i have nothing else to do...:142smilie

as i have previously stated a few times, abortion at one time was the #1 issue for me in choosing a candidate & like my good friend bjfiniste, i used to get angry at people who were on the other side than me (some very good friends) on this issue.

although i am still very much pro-choice, my stance on this issue has changed a little & have now accepted the other side's point of view.

like gw i feel it's a state's issue, believe that underage girls should get parental consent, & don't believe in late term abortions.

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

Can Al or Weasel please explain the logic behind saying that this should be a "State issue"? What the hell does that mean? I just don't understand the thought behind the statement. You think it is right/wrong but it should be up to the individual states to decide???? Why?

 

[AR182]

Can Al or Weasel please explain the logic behind saying that this should be a "State issue"? What the hell does that mean? I just don't understand the thought behind the statement. You think it is right/wrong but it should be up to the individual states to decide???? Why?

yeah gary..it doesn't make sense does it ?:142smilie

let me say that i believe roe v wade should not be over-turned so therefore it shouldn't be left up to the states..sorry for the confusion..

 

[gardenweasel]

we`re for limited federal gov`t....

you believe in "anything goes"...some people don`t...

personally,i`d rather see the people of each state vote and decide on an issue like this than have it mandated by some political court...

 

[AR182]

we`re for limited federal gov`t....

you believe in "anything goes"...some people don`t...

personally,i`d rather see the people of each state vote and decide on an issue like this than have it mandated by some political court...

i do believe in a small fed.gov't...but after thinking it over if we left each state decide on this particular issue, there will be girls/women going abortion shopping to different states like they did years ago...& i think that would do more harm than good..

 

[gardenweasel]

i apologize if it seemed as though i was speaking for ar...not my intention..

i see your point...but i`d just rather see the people decide hot button domestic issues like abortion than some political hack....

the problem with an emotional issue like abortion is that those on the extreme want to decide the issue for "everyone"....thus,we have all this poliitical animus.....

i say just let the peeps decide for themselves...

get the federal govt out of it...might help take some angst out of the highly charged political scene.....

some say that clinton impeachment was responsible for the insane political landscape....but,many say that abortion is the real hot button issue...

let each state battle it out....this way the people actually make their own decision...