CEO pay

dawgball

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Watched a little of the speech last night and then caught the Democratic response.

My question is this: Outside of the efforts of Sarbanes-Oxley (sp?) and the Options back-dating scandals, why should our government have anything to do with the ratio of CEO pay to the lowest-wage workers?

Also, when politicians use the 400:1 ratio is it, for example, using the CEO of McDonald's compared to the newest tray cleaner hired for minimum wage?

If that is the comparison, then I would argue that there is no question that the CEO is worth at least that to the company in comparison. BUT this is for another discussion.

The real question here is what is everyone's personal opinion on what exactly the government should have its hand in here?

Looking forward to everyone's input.
 

StevieD

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This explains how they get to the ratio. Not based upon lowest paid worker. In fact, if min wage rose as fast as CEO pay the min would be $23.05 an hour now.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/26/news/economy/ceo_pay/

CEO pay: Sky high gets even higher
A new report shows top-dog pay bites shareholders, and alleges war profiteering among some CEOs.
August 30, 2005: 12:24 PM EDT
By Jeanne Sahadi, CNN/Money senior writer

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) ? If sky-high executive pay at publicly traded companies gives you vertigo, you might want to read this sitting down.

In 2004, the ratio of average CEO pay to the average pay of a production (i.e., non-management) worker was 431-to-1, up from 301-to-1 in 2003, according to "Executive Excess," an annual report released Tuesday by the liberal research groups United for a Fair Economy and the Institute for Policy Studies.

That's not the highest ever. In 2001, the ratio of CEO-to-worker pay hit a peak of 525-to-1.





Still, it's quite a leap year over year, and it ranks on the high end historically. In 1990, for instance, CEOs made about 107 times more than the average worker, while in 1982, the average CEO made only 42 times more.

The cumulative pay of the top 10 highest paid CEOs in the past 15 years totaled $11.7 billion.

And though the specific individuals in each of those annual top 10 lists changed year to year, many bosses did pretty well throughout the entire period. Citigroup's Sandy Weill, for example, has made $1.1 billion since 1990.

"Pay" in this instance refers to total compensation ? including salary, bonuses, restricted stock awards, payouts on long-term incentives and the value of options exercised during the year.

The report also compares the growth in average CEO pay ? which was $11.8 million in 2004 ? to the growth in the minimum wage. Had the minimum wage risen as fast as CEO compensation since 1990, the researchers calculated, it would now be $23.03 an hour instead of just $5.15. And the average production worker would be making $110,126 a year instead of $27,460.

In some ways, though, comparing the compensation of a company chief to the average non-management worker is a specious argument, said Nell Minow, editor of the Corporate Library, an independent investment research firm providing data on corporate governance and risk.

"I'm willing to pay people based on the value they create," said Minow, who is herself a frequent critic of excessive executive compensation.

"Creating value" can mean a ton of money for the CEO, who presumably is in a position to create the most value for the company. But when it comes to pay, Minow said, "The question is, 'Did they earn it?'"

By objective measures in several instances, the answer, many would argue, is "absolutely not."

The authors of "Executive Excess" highlight what they consider to be war profiteering on the part of several CEOs of defense contractors. One such CEO, David H. Brooks of bulletproof-vest maker DHB Industries, raked in $70 million for 2004. By contrast, in 2001, he made $525,000.

Brooks also sold $186 million in company stock at the end of 2004, when the share price was trading at an all-time high. Immediately thereafter, it fell from just over $22 to under $16. Today it's trading around $7 a share. Analysts attributed the sharp decline in January 2005 to concern over large insider sales, according to reports.

In May of this year, the U.S. Marines recalled more than 5,000 DHB vests in advance of a news report questioning their effectiveness.

The authors of "Executive Excess" note, too, the great disparity between the average defense CEO's pay ? $11.6 million last year ? and that of a military general with 20 years' experience, who makes $168,905. The average private, meanwhile, earns $24,278, including extra combat pay.

From an investment standpointbig pay for the chief is no guarantee of a big payout for the shareholder.

Between 1991 and 2004, the stock of the previous year's most highly paid CEO underperformed the S&P 500 half the time, in some instances by a stunning amount.

The most glaring example was Computer Associates. In 1999, the company paid its CEO $655 million as part of his share of a $1.1 billion stock bonus for the company's three top officers. In 2000, the stock plummeted 72 percent, while the S&P 500 fell 10 percent.

The blame for excessive CEO pay rests not with the CEO, Minow said, but with the company board of directors who determine CEO compensation. And it is those board members to whom shareholders should register their displeasure.

The Business Roundtable, an association of CEOs that lobbies on behalf of big business, had no comment for this article, but invited anyone to read the principles it advocates for executive compensation
 

dawgball

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I failed to point out that I am very much against outlandish pay packages. But that is a personal opinon. As the article points out, the BOD is responsible for putting those together. If I do not feel they are actin responsibly, I would never invest in that company.

Thanks for the clarifying article, StevieD, on where the number comes from.

But I don't think it really addresses my question much. With this being an important enough topic to throw out a number like 400:1 ratio in the rebuttal last night, I figured there would be some opinions here as to how our government is responsbile and what actions the Dems think they would take.

I, personally, want government out of things like this. It will only lead to beauracratic fumblings in the future.

And to the minimum wage worker compensation, that really means nothing to me. If the same person who was making minimum wage in 1990 is still making minimum wage, then I would guess there are other factors in play.

Gettting back on subject (sorry for the ramble): What does everyone feel the government should be able to do about the numbers that were mentioned last night by the Senator?
 

StevieD

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Here is my take on it. The numbers are pornographic in some cases. I am against the Government stepping in but what is the alternative? The Government is after all our representatives. At least they are suppose to be. I think it beats massive strikes and boycotts. Because the strikes and boycotts would only hurt the worker long before it hit the CEO.
 

dawgball

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Step in and do what? Limit the amount of money an individual can negotiate as his pay?

Still trying to flesh this out myself. Curiosity is high.
 

StevieD

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Step in and do what? Limit the amount of money an individual can negotiate as his pay?

Still trying to flesh this out myself. Curiosity is high.

Well, when you put it that way:shrug:
Seriously, I don't know what exactly to do but the greed being exhibited by the CEO's and Execs of these big companies is very dangerous.
 

djv

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The boards of these companies should have a say of top threein a company. And the board should be looking out for the owners of the company. That would be the stock owners. To many of these boards have buddies on each others board. Might be good place to set some rules. Japan Companies seem to kick ass and do OK with a pay package of 100/1 tops. Most work on a 50/1 top to bottom. Germany is another one 100/1 top. No C E O is better at over 400/1. And then even when doing a shitty job they reward them. Try that on your boss do a chit job for a year and see what you increase is. GL!
 

dawgball

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The boards of these companies should have a say of top threein a company. And the board should be looking out for the owners of the company. That would be the stock owners. To many of these boards have buddies on each others board. Might be good place to set some rules. Japan Companies seem to kick ass and do OK with a pay package of 100/1 tops. Most work on a 50/1 top to bottom. Germany is another one 100/1 top. No C E O is better at over 400/1. And then even when doing a shitty job they reward them. Try that on your boss do a chit job for a year and see what you increase is. GL!

So it is your opinion that the government should out limits on what a person can make?

The countries that you listed: are the governments controlling those numbers, or are they self-regulated?
 

djv

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Germany I don't know. Japan I believe our government rules.
And these rules stop no one from getting payed what ever. But it does express the use of common sense.
But with our system as it is now. It's a buddy system that is not always a reward for doing a good job.
 

dawgball

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dooley -- I had not heard about that, yet. Thanks for the link.

djv -- I think your statement seems like it comes from a very media-spun bias about the buddy system.

There is a lot wrong with the current upper exec pay schedules, but I find it hard to accept that it is as juvenile as that.

One example that comes to mind (and this is the extreme) is Jack Welch. I would argue any day that he was worth more than 400 times the average worker over the years for GE. But like I said, that is extreme example and I probably shouldn't use it for this conversation because I don't want to come off as defending the over-compensation.

I like the sound of the deal Home Depot just made with their new guy.
 

Roger Baltrey

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DJV,

Japan was a bad example. There economy has been in the tank for years. There's is nothing wrong with Politicians railing against outlandish pay (Grasso at the NYSE) but don't need legislation. Democrats use this shit to rile up their base. This is usually what takes them off thier game. Let's see if they can avoid this in 08 or fall into the usual trap of Al Bore and John ZZZZZZZZZZ Kerry. Those 2 should write a book on "how anyone can possible lose to George Bush". It still boggles the mind. :mj07:
 

djv

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But Dawg if they are doing there job and getting most out of the bottom guy. Hey they bring him up they go up to. Evey one working together to improve the company.
 

Terryray

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The Economist had good article on this other day.

One of thier points was that the statistic used for "average" pay for this is the mean. But the median would better reflect reality as it wouldn't put so much emphasis on a few outliers that arguably shouldn't be included anyway.

using the median makes a difference:


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The article argues that many CEOs have earned this recent increase in pay as they and boards have become more accountable, CEO stays have shorten under greater scruitiny and performance goals---this has caused both a bidding up of compensation and reduction of managerial talent. That combination, not surprisingly, has lead to much increase in pay.


but the larger point is that workers have done very well last 30 years too. The absolute increase for all has been good, even if the relative ratio hasn't been so great. Harping on the relative and ignoring the absolute just increases envy and anger. You can clearly see from responses to questions about what policy what one might do about changing the ratio---- and then resulting silence about any concrete policy---that breeding envy and anger is the point here.


Webb talked of how "Wall Street" doing well, but Bush actually just talked about increasing trade and output---success there would mean increases in wages and employment that helps workers most of all.
 

dawgball

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But Dawg if they are doing there job and getting most out of the bottom guy. Hey they bring him up they go up to. Evey one working together to improve the company.

Couldn't agree more.

Would you say that the average worker has more or less as far as possessions today compared to any time in history?

TVs, multiple new cars, Computers, new clothes, vacations, cable, satellite, internet, etc.

Now you may bring up credit cards and the impending debt. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. I think we can agree that this mantra is what made your generation survive, correct?

We need to educate our country on how to manage THEIR money. Not how to try and live like someone else.

Terry Ray -- thanks for the reply. good angle.
 

dawgball

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I guess getting back on point.

Why are the Dems talking about this? How are they planning on getting involved? This is a very scary situation to me and seems like a slippery slope of compensation control.
 

djv

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I think you will see this slide to back burner. It just was timing. Had two three companies doing badly and handing out big bucks for poor job. So they got attention. Believe more then Dem's were question that.
 

dawgball

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I think you will see this slide to back burner. It just was timing. Had two three companies doing badly and handing out big bucks for poor job. So they got attention. Believe more then Dem's were question that.

yeah. Probably right on timing. I just thought it was VERY odd that they used part of the heavily watched time of the rebuttal to bring it up.
 

shamrock

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dawg, I completely agree guys like Welch, Gates, should be greatly compensated, they are special people with very unique talents and deserve the tremendous wealth they have earned.

But many CEOs in my opinion don't deserve these tremendous pay differentials with the average worker. Commonly now practiced many CEOs and board members are voting themselves huge raises with stock options etc., while simultaneously trying to cut blue collar workers Health benefits and other benefits they have worked for decades to achieve. I have seen this with several companies, as they try to buy off their older employees, (guys with 20-30 years service), literally the workers that built companies through good times and bad. Made it their life occupation, are shown the door because they make to much money, and have EARNED THROUGH DECADES OF WORK, benefits and perks that the companies now don't want to honor. And at the same time they are trying to get rid of these seasoned experienced workers that built the company, they are voting themselves huge raises and stock options even though they in many cases haven't been with the company half as long, or contributed half as much to these companies. That in my opinion is nothing but corporate greed.

Since the Democratic Party generally represents blue collar workers, it seems logical they would use this as a rallying cry to attract votes & ultimately get candidates elected, although I can't see government stepped in and doing much about these inadequacies. Nor do I think it is the governments place. But something will have to give. Greed contrary to what Michael Douglas says isn't always good.
 
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