Chicago Teachers

[Jord20]

FDC, I'm sure you are a good dude, but I don't think we are getting anywhere. I am respectfully leaving the discussion. I wish you the best, brother. Cheers

 

[redsfann]

Further, the bigger problem is the curriculum and the structure which they are forced to abide by is a complete disaster and it simply does not do what it claims to. It doesn't teach critical thinking or HOW to think. It teaches us what to think and is basically a propaganda playground for the State to raise us to become good little citizens who will obey whatever we are told.
That is my well informed opinion, at least.

Read John Taylor Gatto's (former NY state teacher of the year)'Dumbing us Down' or 'weapons of mass instruction' for more.

This.

 

[fatdaddycool]

"Nobody needs salesmen, marketers, mechanics, contractors, or farmers for that matter. These are all professions of convenience and we don't need a damn one of them. Unfortunately, people have a vastly overblown sense of self. Especially on this site."

That is your opinion. And you say everyone else has an overblown sense of self, then why is it that you feel the need to impose your morals and opinions on others? You condemn people on here for trying to value someone's worth, but then you think it is ok to point a gun at everyone else and tell them what they MUST pay that said person. So, your value is right and good and worthy of Mandate, but someone else's opinion is worthless.
I'm lost in the logic.

I will remove myself from this thread and stick to the handicapping stuff on here. Good luck to all and PEACE.

"The Function of the State's Ideological Minions and allies [is] to explain to the public that the Emperor does indeed have a fine set of clothes . . . the ideologists must explain that, while theft by one or more persons or groups is bad and criminal, that when the State engages in such acts it is not theft but the legitimate and even sanctified act called 'taxation.' The ideologists must explain that murder by one or more persons or groups is bad and must be punished, but that when the State kills it is not murder but an exalted act known as 'war' or "repression of internal subversion.' They must explain that while kidnapping or slavery is bad and must be outlawed when done by private individuals or groups, and when the State commits such acts it is not kidnapping or slavery but 'conscription' -- an act necessary to the public weal . . . . The age-old success of the ideologists of the State is perhaps the most gigantic hoax in the history of mankind."

I have read the Nature of the State also and you are somewhat misstating the content of what Rothbard meant in this particular statement.

I apologize if I said that I was the moral conscience of the state. I am not. I am simply saying that those who lie in judgement of another person's worth has an over inflated ego. I don't agree with them, yet I don't condemn them as overpaid or condemn them to continued repression. You can remove yourself from the thread if you want but don't do it because you ran out of oblique quotes that you think nobody else knows about.


Hope this helps,
FDC

 

[Jord20]

I can't resist... :nono:

I would LOVE to hear what I have possibly misstated!! Please enlighten me

 

[fatdaddycool]

FDC, I'm sure you are a good dude, but I don't think we are getting anywhere. I am respectfully leaving the discussion. I wish you the best, brother. Cheers

I am sure you are as well and I really enjoyed the discourse brother. You definitely know how to pick your cities (Chicago native) and essays. Do you read a lot of Rothbard, Paine, etc....?

 

[Jord20]

Rothbard, Mises, Hoppe, Block, Bastiat,Hazlitt and Rockwell are my faves. Haven't read anything from Paine, but am obviously well aware of his whole "common sense" thing.

Do you still live in Chicago?

 

[fatdaddycool]

I can't resist... :nono:

I would LOVE to hear what I have possibly misstated!! Please enlighten me

Actually, I regret adding the "oblique essay" thing as I had not read the above post that you graciously wrote, so for that I apologize for the sarcasm.

In response, Rothbard was not speaking about the education system in this essay. I am pretty sure he was talking about government and the ruling nature of the state. Basically, that the citizens of the state allow themselves to be ruled by a government that resides in the mind of the governed, so to speak. In other words, people allow themselves to be governed and do so blindly. I think he was saying that there is no difference in a region that is governed by criminal activity and violence than one governed by formed government as long as both regions accept them as legitimate. I believe he said something about the Constitution not being the determinant restraint of government and rule, but the willingness of the people within the territory to accept the limitations and restraints of the Constitution. Not verbatim, nor even paraphrased as I don't have it in front of me but I do believe it was him that wrote something of that nature.
I wholeheartedly agree with him, but I don't agree with your application of his essay here is all.

I am impressed with your reading though and I mean that sincerely.


Hope the helps,
FDC

 

[fatdaddycool]

Rothbard, Mises, Hoppe, Block, Bastiat,Hazlitt and Rockwell are my faves. Haven't read anything from Paine, but am obviously well aware of his whole "common sense" thing.

Do you still live in Chicago?

Mom lives in Oak Lawn now and I get up there often. Will be there for Thanksgiving and Christmas for a week or so each.

Would be nice to meet for lunch or something. What area you in?

 

[fatdaddycool]

Also a big fan of Ludwig, a very insightful person without a doubt.

 

[dunclock]

Hedgie, you are a moron. I love this board for what it is and typically stay our of these types of threads but this one has me on so many levels (Disclaimer before you accuse me - I am NOT a teacher):

First of all, you want to argue the comment that the average teacher's salary in the Chicago Public School System is $70k/year (I won't even get into the poor math you used to try and figure out an equivalent for a "typical annual salary."). What you first must realize is that this is an AVERAGE! It's an average across 29,000 teachers. The maximum salary of a teacher in the CPS with 20+ years and a Doctorate degree is $88,680. I would bet that in over 90% of "educated professions," you have the ability to make much more than $88.6k/year at your highest level. I would also hope that in any established school district, most of the teachers would be past the median point in experience (i.e. more teachers with say 15-20 years of experience than those with 0-5 years of experience).

Secondly, you continue to claim that teachers only work 9 months out of the year and should only be paid for 9 months of work. Judging by your rationale, logic, math skills, grammer skills, etc., I don't think you spent much time "gitin' yer edukashun." What I'd like you to be aware of is that teachers during the school year show up before school, stay after school, check papers long into the evening, show up for school events when they have other things to do, answer emails from parents, hold conferences whenever asked by parents, etc. If you think for one minute that any teacher works a 40-hour work week during those 9 months, you're sorely mistaken.

Third, do you realize that part of the "agreements" between school boards and teachers is that they have to continue their education? In most states, you have to continue to get college-level course education for as long as you maintain your license. Most "average" teachers have at least one Masters degree after they've been teaching for a few years. Some have multiple like your mom. Who do you think pays for this education? That's right Hedgie, the teachers pay for their own education! Even courses through a cheaper extension facility can run your bill into the tens of thousands for your first Masters Degree. But, it doesn't stop there. It's an expense that keeps on coming back.

Speaking of expenses, do you realize how much of teachers OWN money goes back into the classroom? $1.33B (yes, billion) were spent by teachers in the U.S. in 2010 on their own classroom. This equates to $356/teacher/year.

Next, your taxes. Do you even think that all $6,700 goes straight to the teachers??? Ever hear of police, fire, libraries, local government infrastructure, etc.? Shit Hedge, are you the same guy that blows $350 on your ex-girlfriends kids for a birthday or $1,000s in a night for strippers? If teachers danced around a pole for you 6.7 times a year would they be worth it then?

The 2011 Bureau of Labor Statistics listed the following AVERAGE salaries by job type:
Ad/Promo Manager - $103k
Marketing Managers - $126k
Sales Managers - $117k
PR Managers - $106k
Financial Managers - $120k
**Average Teacher Salary (not CPS) - $56k

Don't you find it ironic that we as a nation find it ok to pay the people that fill our mind with worthless garbage whatever they want and bitch and complain about people that are expected to mold and shape our children for the future? This is sickening to me.

If you still find this ok to deal with, consider that a loan officer ($67.9k) and a landscape architect ($66.5k) are just an extremely small sample of two professions where you don't need a college degree but can average more in salary than the average teacher.

Hedge, I am a fiscal conservative by nature so I'm not attacking you from what you would call the "Liberal Left." This shit is common sense and you are on the wrong side of the equation. If your mom could see the shit you spew around here, I'm sure she'd be disappointed in the way she raised you.

But yeah, go on and keep defending the rich, brother. It's perfectly ok for white-collar CEO-types to accept your tax dollars while the government bails them out. By all means they deserve that pay. Teachers on the other hand...

I'll close by reiterating my first point. Hedgie, you are a moron.

excellent post and facts provided :0074

 

[fatdaddycool]

Hedgie, you are a moron. I love this board for what it is and typically stay our of these types of threads but this one has me on so many levels (Disclaimer before you accuse me - I am NOT a teacher):

First of all, you want to argue the comment that the average teacher's salary in the Chicago Public School System is $70k/year (I won't even get into the poor math you used to try and figure out an equivalent for a "typical annual salary."). What you first must realize is that this is an AVERAGE! It's an average across 29,000 teachers. The maximum salary of a teacher in the CPS with 20+ years and a Doctorate degree is $88,680. I would bet that in over 90% of "educated professions," you have the ability to make much more than $88.6k/year at your highest level. I would also hope that in any established school district, most of the teachers would be past the median point in experience (i.e. more teachers with say 15-20 years of experience than those with 0-5 years of experience).

Secondly, you continue to claim that teachers only work 9 months out of the year and should only be paid for 9 months of work. Judging by your rationale, logic, math skills, grammer skills, etc., I don't think you spent much time "gitin' yer edukashun." What I'd like you to be aware of is that teachers during the school year show up before school, stay after school, check papers long into the evening, show up for school events when they have other things to do, answer emails from parents, hold conferences whenever asked by parents, etc. If you think for one minute that any teacher works a 40-hour work week during those 9 months, you're sorely mistaken.

Third, do you realize that part of the "agreements" between school boards and teachers is that they have to continue their education? In most states, you have to continue to get college-level course education for as long as you maintain your license. Most "average" teachers have at least one Masters degree after they've been teaching for a few years. Some have multiple like your mom. Who do you think pays for this education? That's right Hedgie, the teachers pay for their own education! Even courses through a cheaper extension facility can run your bill into the tens of thousands for your first Masters Degree. But, it doesn't stop there. It's an expense that keeps on coming back.

Speaking of expenses, do you realize how much of teachers OWN money goes back into the classroom? $1.33B (yes, billion) were spent by teachers in the U.S. in 2010 on their own classroom. This equates to $356/teacher/year.

Next, your taxes. Do you even think that all $6,700 goes straight to the teachers??? Ever hear of police, fire, libraries, local government infrastructure, etc.? Shit Hedge, are you the same guy that blows $350 on your ex-girlfriends kids for a birthday or $1,000s in a night for strippers? If teachers danced around a pole for you 6.7 times a year would they be worth it then?

The 2011 Bureau of Labor Statistics listed the following AVERAGE salaries by job type:
Ad/Promo Manager - $103k
Marketing Managers - $126k
Sales Managers - $117k
PR Managers - $106k
Financial Managers - $120k
**Average Teacher Salary (not CPS) - $56k

Don't you find it ironic that we as a nation find it ok to pay the people that fill our mind with worthless garbage whatever they want and bitch and complain about people that are expected to mold and shape our children for the future? This is sickening to me.

If you still find this ok to deal with, consider that a loan officer ($67.9k) and a landscape architect ($66.5k) are just an extremely small sample of two professions where you don't need a college degree but can average more in salary than the average teacher.

Hedge, I am a fiscal conservative by nature so I'm not attacking you from what you would call the "Liberal Left." This shit is common sense and you are on the wrong side of the equation. If your mom could see the shit you spew around here, I'm sure she'd be disappointed in the way she raised you.

But yeah, go on and keep defending the rich, brother. It's perfectly ok for white-collar CEO-types to accept your tax dollars while the government bails them out. By all means they deserve that pay. Teachers on the other hand...

I'll close by reiterating my first point. Hedgie, you are a moron.

excellent post and facts provided :0074

Just said the same thing via reputation points. Totally agree with Dunclock here, very informative and well written post. Cheers.

 

[BuckwheatJWN]

Maybe "calling" wasn't the right word, but no one should become a teacher who is just looking for a job or want June, July, and August off (a saying I hear often from those in the PROFESSION). A teacher should be someone who WANTS to educate young people. It's a chosen profession, not one where someone says"I can't find a job anywhere, maybe i'll try teaching. It pays good with benefits." All professions should be "callings"(sorry I don't have a better word) and if you aren't good at it, move on. Those of us who ended up being coal miners, steelworkers, truck drivers, etc for the most part were looking for a JOB and hoped it paid well enough to ignore the downside. We are all "prostitutes" we just get to chose to what degree. Or at least hope to chose. :0008

 

[layinwood]

The 2011 Bureau of Labor Statistics listed the following AVERAGE salaries by job type:
Ad/Promo Manager - $103k
Marketing Managers - $126k
Sales Managers - $117k
PR Managers - $106k
Financial Managers - $120k
**Average Teacher Salary (not CPS) - $56k


DWSmith, I think the big problem is that it's very easy to quantify the value received from employees in some of these jobs. Teaching is not. A sales manager for instance-It's easy to pay a good one 117k because at the end of the QTR or year you can definitively see if they're worth it. Other jobs are the same way. You earn your keep and you keep your job.

The other BIG thing and probably most important is supply and demand. If the job sucked bad enough and didn't pay enough then you wouldn't have so many people trying to do it.

 

[fatdaddycool]

Maybe "calling" wasn't the right word, but no one should become a teacher who is just looking for a job or want June, July, and August off (a saying I hear often from those in the PROFESSION). A teacher should be someone who WANTS to educate young people. It's a chosen profession, not one where someone says"I can't find a job anywhere, maybe i'll try teaching. It pays good with benefits." All professions should be "callings"(sorry I don't have a better word) and if you aren't good at it, move on. Those of us who ended up being coal miners, steelworkers, truck drivers, etc for the most part were looking for a JOB and hoped it paid well enough to ignore the downside. We are all "prostitutes" we just get to chose to what degree. Or at least hope to chose. :0008

This is true, very unfortunate for some and great for others ya know....
:toast:

 

[BuckwheatJWN]

Anytime I see the word MANAGER I know he (or she) can get FIRED easily and at times wrongfully. I'm not sure why these figures should be compared to teachers

 

[CryBoy]

Just got home... Contract time is 7:15 to 3:15. I normally arrive at 6:45 and leave at 4:15. Today is Friday so I leave a little bit early.

Back to the topic... None of my colleagues ever complained salaries. My health insurance premium from the district for a family of four is close to $700/month and that's the bottom tier. Guess what? I don't complain about that. Guys? It's not the money. We have all learned to live within our means. We don't have a merit pay system here in Arlington. It will never work. Teachers will turn on each other. Rookie teachers will drown. Everyone will want Pre-AP or AP classes. I don't have the answers but here is part of the problem... Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. Those that can't teach go back to school and get an administrative degree and tell teachers how to teach.

 

[UGA12]

Just got home... Contract time is 7:15 to 3:15. I normally arrive at 6:45 and leave at 4:15. Today is Friday so I leave a little bit early.

Back to the topic... None of my colleagues ever complained salaries. My health insurance premium from the district for a family of four is close to $700/month and that's the bottom tier. Guess what? I don't complain about that. Guys? It's not the money. We have all learned to live within our means. We don't have a merit pay system here in Arlington. It will never work. Teachers will turn on each other. Rookie teachers will drown. Everyone will want Pre-AP or AP classes. I don't have the answers but here is part of the problem... Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. Those that can't teach go back to school and get an administrative degree and tell teachers how to teach.

:0074

Amazing isn't it. I have said it many times, intelligence is the most overrated quality when it comes to being an effective teacher. Obviously one needs content knowledge, but unfortunately many of my colleagues confuse what they know, with what the students care about and what motivates them to actually put forth effort and better themselves. These "intellects" eventually tire of students that "wont listen" and go into administration so they can tell people like me how to get kids to listen:facepalm: I have become very jaded by the entire process and have come to loath many of those in administrative positions over the years. I have zero problem with students, but some of the adults are very hard to be around.

 

[BuckwheatJWN]

UGA: You are right just as the best athletes are seldom the best coaches.

 

[gardenweasel]

bottom line is everybody realizes that teachers are valuable...but cities are going broke as a result of exorbitant salaries/pensions/healthcare...basically the largesse of the past....it`s over...those days are over...

we can`t afford it anymore....that`s the bottom line....even democrat mayors like rahm emanuel realize that the well is going dry.....

something has to be done...everybody has to have some skin in the game...everybody has to suffer a little to right the ship(or at least just keep it listing)...everybody has to realize that raises are going to be smaller(or suspended)...people are going to have to chip in more for their own healthcare and pensions...

it`s no fun for anybody..i don`t like it.......but you just cant bury your head in the sand and act like it`s not happeneing...

it`s not a question of morality or who deserves what...it`s a question of fiscal reality...

good thread...relatively respectful with some solid arguments(like the old political forum used to be before it went belly up)...:0074

 

[UGA12]

bottom line is everybody realizes that teachers are valuable...but cities are going broke as a result of exorbitant salries/pensions/healthcare...basically the largesse of the past....it`s over...those days are over...

we can`t afford it anymore....that`s the bottom line....even democrat mayors like rahm emanuel realize that the well is going dry.....

something has to be done...everybody has to have some skin in the game...everybody has to suffer a little to right the ship(or at least just keep it listing)...everybody has to realize that raises are going to be smaller(or suspended)...people are going to have to chip in more for their own healthcare and pensions...

it`s no fun for anybody..i don`t like it.......but you just cant bury your head in the samd and act like it`s not happeneing...

it`s not a question of morality or who deserves what...it`s a question of fiscal reality...

good thread...relatively respectful with some solid arguments(like the old political forum used to be before it went belly up)...:0074

I think according to where you look you will see that the things you mention are taking place. We for instance have had our state pay raises suspended, county step raises postponed, healthcare up 25% in the past 3 years, and forced to take 10 furlough days(1.9% pay cut) and a few other things that add up. Not bitching(though it does suck) as much as saying that it is happening according to where you look.