Is this cheating? Should the casino pay him, since they have only given him back his original starting money but none of the profit.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
Ivey wins $12 Million by noticing flawed cards
- Thread starter hedman
- Start date
It's cheating. Bottom line.
He knew what the cards were, and took advantage of that fact. If the casino did that to any of us, you would be screaming bloody murder.
He knew what the cards were, and took advantage of that fact. If the casino did that to any of us, you would be screaming bloody murder.
Thanks Joker, I didnt know he was asking to see the cards or have them turned a certain way. It seems to me he is playing an angle here. I do think it is on the house to prevent this and once a bet is accepted it should be paid, but it doesnt sit well with me either, as I do think its a form of cheating or at least not 100% honest.
Yeah, this is fucking crazy. The guy is on a heater and they let him use the same cards. Hell, if I get up a couple hundred bucks in baccarat, some asshole always comes over and changes out the cards and ruins all my mojo.
I don't, but I think here he is taking advantage of a flaw in the game, not simply using superior talent to beat the game.
:0002
Unless he was in cohoots with the dealer, then I don't think he is at fault. He didn't make them turn the cards 180 degrees, the dealer/casino did it. And again, they did it over multiple nights.
Where the eff was the oversight when this guy was running his way up the millions for someone to stop and think 'hey, we are keeping cards overnight for him and he is asking the dealer to turn the cards 180 degrees, maybe something isn't right?'.
Not the same and you know it. The deck could be +30 and you could still lose the next hand. If you knew you were getting dealt a blackjack......different story.
"Punto banco" is known as "mini baccarat" here in North America. Or simply put it is where the dealer touches the cards at all times. In "baccarat" the customer can touch the cards, in "mini baccarat" the customer can not touch the cards" that is the only difference.
Go to any casino anywhere in the world and play "mini baccarat".....the shoe changes after 70-90 hands. Then those cards from that shoe are never used again after roughly 3 hours or so.
(in baccarat cards are destroyed after one hand, customers can rip cards in half if they like)
For some stupid reason Phil got to use the same cards for days:scared
Oh and for those that know baccarat, if what the casino says is in fact true Phil didn't know for sure he was going to win. Yes if what casino said actually happened he had an advantage but that didn't mean he was 100 percent going to win his hand. Only some of the cards were "defective" and in baccarat there can be 6 cards dealt in one hand.
Oh and I call bullshit on what the casino said. And even if it was true, they made errors that were beyond stupid.
Fire the staff........pay Phil his money.
Go to any casino anywhere in the world and play "mini baccarat".....the shoe changes after 70-90 hands. Then those cards from that shoe are never used again after roughly 3 hours or so.
(in baccarat cards are destroyed after one hand, customers can rip cards in half if they like)
For some stupid reason Phil got to use the same cards for days:scared
Oh and for those that know baccarat, if what the casino says is in fact true Phil didn't know for sure he was going to win. Yes if what casino said actually happened he had an advantage but that didn't mean he was 100 percent going to win his hand. Only some of the cards were "defective" and in baccarat there can be 6 cards dealt in one hand.
Oh and I call bullshit on what the casino said. And even if it was true, they made errors that were beyond stupid.
Fire the staff........pay Phil his money.
This is horrible advertising for the casino. Should have just paid him his money and shut up. This will cost em so much money in lost revenue because of their stupidity.
They fucked up, big time. And made it worse by making it public.
Using the same shoe in baccarat for days. Moronic.
Making it public knowledge that they were stupid beyond belief......even dumber.
And oh yeah, ya think the would have given Phil his money back if Phil lost 12 million US dollars?
ummmm no.
They fucked up, big time. And made it worse by making it public.
Using the same shoe in baccarat for days. Moronic.
Making it public knowledge that they were stupid beyond belief......even dumber.
And oh yeah, ya think the would have given Phil his money back if Phil lost 12 million US dollars?
ummmm no.
From the yahoo story on it:
The casino's theory: that Ivey had spotted tiny imperfections in the cards' designs, and used that knowledge to help identify when certain cards would be on the table, even when face-down.
Here, in an illustration created by The Daily Mail, is one possible way that the alleged scam could have unfolded:
The illustration is what Joker posted.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/the-t...embroiled-dispute-over-payment-032520482.html
How do we know its not the same as counting cards? All we have our vague details and theories on how it was done.
I think Kickserv was pretty accurate in his post above describing the details how the game works.
I have played thousands of hands of "mini baccarat" in casinos. The shoe gets switched out after all the cards are dealt. Most casinos have "red cards" and then "blue cards". They will deal the "red cards" (roughly 80 hands), then deal the "blue cards" (roughly 80 hands).
Some casinos will even just deal one shoe and take the cards out of play. Some will maybe deal the shoe twice. And at max three times. And then that's it.
How in the love of fuck they used the same shoe FOR DAYS is mind boggling.:scared
And if some of the cards were "defective"....how could nobody at the casino notice this:shrug:
It is their job to check the cards for fucks sake.
It's not the same, because he KNEW what the next card always was or wasn't. If it was an 8 or 9, he had a distinct advantage with that knowledge. This pretty much shows itself in the fact that he "won" $12M.
The staff were either idiots, or in on it, but that doesn't exonerate Ivey from what he did, IMO.
WRONG
If you know baccarat he may have known what the next card was or maybe two. But he would not know what the next 4 cards were or the next six.
The only way that would be the case would be if he had the dealer deal 4 cards face down AND THEN he was allowed to bet.
If that happened and the casino actually let him BET AFTER THE CARDS WERE ON THE TABLE, then the entire casino should just open the vault to every customer and have them walk in and take all their money.
Oh and even then Phil would not know if he was going to win or not.
Bottom line, the casino was beyond stupid and they were lucky they only lost 12 million US dollars. Or maybe they did. Perhaps someone else noticed the defective cards and took money off em.
The casino fucked up so massively in every way.
Phil did nothing wrong....pay him.
