north korea successfully tests nukes...

[djv]

AS of today no one Russia our CIA even China are for sure this even was a atomic device. And those that say attack attack of course are just kidding some what. This would be no cake walk were talking tons of casualties. Were talking in the ten of thousands. And as the CIA negotiator working with final details on a upgrade to 94 agreement said on fox yesterday with shep. There weeks after Bush election they said No, No and No and stopped negotiation. He said they were in words of a new 10 year deal and it was thrown in the fire. That's not on Clinton. That's on our fearless leader Bush. Instead he called them a name and said China and S Korea and Japan should handle.
of course breaking first agreement giving N Korea excuses to do same. And once again forgetting we had the agreement with them and the cease fire document. WE lost over 47000 men in less then 3 years in the 50's. So lets not talk about cake walks like Iraq. We need to be smarter.

 

[gardenweasel]

What do you propose be done, Weasel?

how should i know?....the carrot failed....and the stick costs thousands of innocent lives.....


we`re dealing with different threats,today....the "deterrent" concept has little effect on regimes like iran or north korea.....

the former welcomes the prospect of millions of new martyrs, while the latter doesn`t give a damn if you nuke their population......

soooo, basically there is little the west can really do....(aside from provide them with the technology...lol)..

these are feral regimes... and we can't scare them the way we scared the vastly more civilized (by comparison) ruskies....

the only nation that can stop this(n.korea) is china by stopping oil shipments and aid....and i`mo,we should be putting SERIOUS pressure on china....

now...all kidding and sarcasm aside for just one second....seriously...

i get upset at the myopic bush hatred...the crazed,incoherent extremist left that would like us to fail in iraq...that doesn`t care enough about our country to understand that we live in dangerous times...and are fighting a very different type of enemy...

they undermine our gov`t at every opportunity...blindly....the patriot act...nsa....the aclu shenanighans..the nyt`s leaking classified programs and secrets......they`re crippling our attempts at fighting our enemies...because it`s more important to "get bush"....

i have alot of issues with bush...he`s made mucho mistakes.....but,he`s not some animal...some monster...he`s not the enemy....

he`s not a mensa member...granted...but,he was elected...

and that`s why i take the counterpoint to all this irrational hysteria...that and the fact that libs outnumber conservatives by about 5-1 on this ite(it seems like)...

whatever,think for a second....

right now....it doesn't matter whose "fault" it is......it`s n. korea`s fault....it`s the little troll with the pompadour`s fault....

it`s ahmadinnerjacket`s fault....that he wants to vaporize israel..put the pinch on the west by controlling middle eastern oil....and see the 12th imam arise from his sub-basement condo...

and it`s the fault of americans in general since the country is so divided that every single issue is re-cast through the prism of political expediency....

many people instantly think...

"how can we discredit or smear bush with this?"
or
"how can we discredit or smear clinton with this?"

when we all should be saying:

"how can we as the world's ony superpower control this serious threat to world stability, and to our own future generations?"

i`m guilty...we`re all guilty....

bush is gone in 2 years....the dems will be taking over congress in a matter of weeks....

i`m not gonna be happy...i think it`ll make us much less safe..if you read nancy pelosi`s voting record it will scare even staunch liberal dems to death...and she`ll be a few heartbeats away from the presidency....:scared

whew,,,

still,start rooting for and supporting your own country... and realize that we are the last,best hope....

and whomever occupies the white house,they are a far sight more interested in the good of mankind than our enemies...

 

[smurphy]

I think we need to keep in mind, before we panic, that nothing has happened from Iran Or North Korea. Israel has not been vaporized, South Korea has not been invaded, and Japan has not been nuked.

One thing about NK and Iran is that they are soveriegn nations. The top priority of their leaders is to keep their little regimes going. They might be crazy, but they are not stupid enough to do something that guarantees their own destruction.

I believe we achieve nothing with threats and name calling. All that does is galvinize the populations of those countries. We have to deal with them. We have to negotiate. At least it doesn't make things worse. It's not like we have some moral guide we follow - we already deal with awful people. We have no problem with that when when there's money involved. The only difference with the axis of evil and Saudi Arabia or China is that there are no profits to be had.

Regarding China, I wonder if we can effectively pressure them about anything. We haven't let their Communist government or plethera of human rights violations stop us from becoming completely reliant on their labor. I think they will laugh at us at this point if we pressure them on anything.

No easy answer for sure, but I think whatever solution that exists starts with communication.

 

[gardenweasel]

"No easy answer for sure, but I think whatever solution that exists starts with communication."



o.k....but,lets be fair....china is the only one that can influence nk...i think most agree with that.... and they don't want to get involved......or at least,don`t want to help us.....theres no incentive to....

bush could hold bilateral talks (but isn't that wrong? ...the dems told us we needed a global test in iraq?....stop moving the damned bar..and settle on a policy..instead of letting these tinpots jerk us around) ..jaysus,they already deceived us once...


china needs to be involved to pressure them.....but,why would they?.....

so,we`re hamstrung....but,maybe not....

if no go,take the gloves off...fight fire with fire....


i`ve thought about this...and imo,there are some things we could do....if we have the sac...the collective will...

the chinese obviously do not fear us...or we`re afraid to use our economic leverage.....neither do russia or france.......

if we can`t stop the despots from arming up..... maybe we need to take some actions that put each of THOSE NATIONS in mortal fear of THEIR respective continuing existences....

we should restore our nuclear arsenals and then begin a massive anti-missle shield....AND THE DEMS HAD BETTER GET WITH THE FRICKIN` PROGRAM.....



let/encourage japan and australia to procure nuclear weaponry(and assist them) to defend themselves against china and it's nuclear ally and surrogate, north korea...ditto south korea(that one scares me a little...s. korea appears to enjoy being n. korea`s little doggie)....

japan`s an economic sleeping giant...i`ve read that they can arm up within half a year with our help..and given all the nuclear material they currently have...they could have over a hundred tactical weapons....

let china worry about those threats.....

as for russia, a nuclear poland and/or ukraine works for me....

threaten to disband nato....and form a new european alliance that leaves the french to twist in the wind......

soon they will have all they handle keeping the muslims from burning paris to the ground,anyway.....

we`re not taking any overt hostile actions...no more "bush aggression"....

but,we aren`t sitting on our hands,either....

why let all these hostile regimes arm up...and have all of the free world dependent on us for protection?.....

let china know that if they can`t rein in the midget,theres nothing WE can do to stop the rest of the democracies in the region from exercising their right to defend themselves....

last time i looked,there are approx. 190 countries in the world, there's the e.u., the u.n.etc..... so why is it supposedly the sole responsiblity of the u.s. and bush(both hated irrationally and internationally) to control some nutjob on the other side of the planet?

are we opening pandora`s box?...the door`s already been ripped off.....

we`re just leveling the playing field...

next issue..how to keep the weapons out of the hands of terrorists....of course,that`s regardless of what we do or do not do....

 

[smurphy]

It may have to go that way. I don't think the US can support Japan or Europe militarily forever. Maybe it's innevitable that we allow rich democracies to start protecting themselves. It's mathematically impossible for us to defend everyone.

The important thing is to have these discussions - and to talk with the countries like Iran and NK as well. Like you said, it does us no good to sit on our hands. The Cold War was settled in great part due to all the summits we had with the Soviets. I'm thinking we need to get back to that way of thinking. It's clear that we cannot attack or threaten our way through this situation.

 

[gardenweasel]

It may have to go that way. I don't think the US can support Japan or Europe militarily forever. Maybe it's innevitable that we allow rich democracies to start protecting themselves. It's mathematically impossible for us to defend everyone.

The important thing is to have these discussions - and to talk with the countries like Iran and NK as well. Like you said, it does us no good to sit on our hands. The Cold War was settled in great part due to all the summits we had with the Soviets. .

actually,the cold war was won,for the most part, because we economically overwhelmed the soviets...they couldn`t keep up....with our economic power....our military build-up....

but,it`s different now...the n. koreans and the iraqis have odd mentalities....mysticism and strangeness rule the day......not self preservation....

backwards regimes that can`t be intimidated militarily....

but,their handlers...russia and china...can be.....and economically..china may be a burgeoning power...but,they can`t match the combined economic and potential military power of the west.....

china is becoming more westernized...their economy shows that...they`d have alot to lose.....i have to believe that they could give a big rat`s ass about the 12th imam....

i just heard on the news that theres talk of something similar to what i just posted in the wind...and they included taiwan in the mix....china won`t stand for that...

maybe,it`s inevitable.....

btw... a huge explosion in iraq....an ammunition depot........:nooo:

 

[gardenweasel]

ultimate fight night on spike tonight....8 p.m.

there`s a prop ..ortiz inside the distance at a little over -300...and that`s low,imo....

would make a nice parlay prop with something safe.....

 

[buddy]

he`s not a mensa member...granted...but,he was elected...

Not so fast, my friend.

 

[smurphy]

actually,the cold war was won,for the most part, because we economically overwhelmed the soviets...they couldn`t keep up....with our economic power....our military build-up....

but,it`s different now...the n. koreans and the iraqis have odd mentalities....mysticism and strangeness rule the day......not self preservation....

backwards regimes that can`t be intimidated militarily....

but,their handlers...russia and china...can be.....and economically..china may be a burgeoning power...but,they can`t match the combined economic and potential military power of the west.....

china is becoming more westernized...their economy shows that...they`d have alot to lose.....i have to believe that they could give a big rat`s ass about the 12th imam....

i just heard on the news that theres talk of something similar to what i just posted in the wind...and they included taiwan in the mix....china won`t stand for that...

maybe,it`s inevitable.....

btw... a huge explosion in iraq....an ammunition depot........:nooo:

I did not state that the summits were THE reason for a favorable result in the Cold War. They helped though - a lot. They would probably go a long way in this situation too - a lot further than flamatory rhetoric.

 

[gardenweasel]

Not so fast, my friend.

that ain`t clifton davis sitting in the whitehouse....

 

[Chadman]

now...all kidding and sarcasm aside for just one second....seriously...

i get upset at the myopic bush hatred...the crazed,incoherent extremist left that would like us to fail in iraq...that doesn`t care enough about our country to understand that we live in dangerous times...and are fighting a very different type of enemy...

they undermine our gov`t at every opportunity...blindly....the patriot act...nsa....the aclu shenanighans..the nyt`s leaking classified programs and secrets......they`re crippling our attempts at fighting our enemies...because it`s more important to "get bush"....

You get upset with the "myopic" Bush hatred, I get upset when people run things together and make them seem like fact and play the "blame game" like you did with the above paragraph. There are many issues that can be looked at, and you - along with the republican majority - use these things as talking points to label the opposition. You call it undermining our government when members on both sides of the aisle want to examine the NSA secret wiretapping program and the blatant disregard for constitutional adherance. You said this, and it's wrong. Many liberals, including myself who tend to be more liberal than not, granted, are not blankly against the NSA program. They/we are against the unfettered, unreported use of it without following the law. With no method of monitoring, there simply is no way to know what the administration and its minions is doing. That is not undermining...blatantly disregarding the constitution and breaking existing laws is undermining.

The Patriot Act has many detractors, including republican and conservative ones. Yet you throw out your BS extremist liberals label and say it's all their fault.

Crippling our attempts at fighting our enemies? Are you kidding me?!? Donald Rumsfeld and the administration have done more to cripple our attempts at fighting our REAL enemies than any complaints or releasing of "secrets."

It just simply gets back to "with us, or against us." If you do not fall in line you are labeled and bashed. It's not unpatriotic to find fault with a very fault-ridden President. It's unpatriotic to allow an administration to trample all over what this country has stood for for hundreds of years, and what people died for to bring us where we are today.

Maybe some people are baffled and befuddled by your long-winded rants that wind on until they find some kind of point. But in nearly every one, it's easy to find where your true feelings live. You think it's somehow admirable to say that you think Bush has made some mistakes? Wow, that's big of you. I have to give you credit, though, as Bush certainly didn't admit to have made any when asked point blank.

 

[kosar]

Anyone see John 'gardenweasel' McCains spiel. 'This is not the time to play the blame game, we must put politics aside and get behind the president'...blah, blah....And then goes on about how it's all Clintons fault. Sounds a lot like this forums favorite garden tool.

Hey, let's keep politics out of it and by the way it's all Clintons fault that Bush canceled the framework agreement about 12 minutes after he was sworn in. So was 9/11 and famine in Africa. :142smilie

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

I believe you left out one important fact Matt--his statement on Clinton was rebuttle after he quoted Hilliarys comment--Did you expect it to go unchalleged.

Got one better for you that will be hitting papers tomorrow--Kennedy was campaigning for Dem and had nerve to bring up Foley--must hve been a bit tipsy--appears the Dems are "in shock" at the Dems opponants comment on Kennedy:mj07:

 

[kosar]

I believe you left out one important fact Matt--his statement on Clinton was rebuttle after he quoted Hilliarys comment--Did you expect it to go unchalleged.

Yes, HE quoted Hillary. He went out of his way to poiliticize it after lecturing everybody else that we need to leave politics out of it.

I have no problem with him responding to Hillary, of course, but he went out of his way to quote Hillary, denounce Bill and before and after tell the rest of us to rally around the Prez and forget about politics.

Gardenweasel would be proud.

 

[kosar]

Got one better for you that will be hitting papers tomorrow--Kennedy was campaigning for Dem and had nerve to bring up Foley--must hve been a bit tipsy--appears the Dems are "in shock" at the Dems opponants comment on Kennedy:mj07:

Not sure what any of this post means, but Kennedy is the last person to be lecturing anybody on ethics.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Some pretty relevant time lines here --that pretty much debunk Hilliarys and Jimmy Carters theories--


Hwang Jang-Yop, a former secretary of the ruling Workers Party of Korea, said the reclusive nation signed a pact with Pakistan in 1996 on the transfer of uranium-based nuclear technology.

"North Korea reprocessed half of its 1,800 fuel rods in 1993," said Hwang, who defected to South Korea in 1997 during a visit to China, adding the test was ordered by leader Kim Jong-Il to "raise his status."