Payback Should Be Hell

[Turfgrass]

I spent a lot of time reading a lot of articles from a lot of sources over the weekend about the conduct and progress of the war against Saddam Hussein. There were a few constant themes in those stories:

1. The only thing that can save the Iraqi regime would be coalition leaders succumbing to anti-war opinion generated by Saddam?s propaganda machine and leftist fellow travelers.
2. Despite some negative news stories, this military action has been remarkably successful thus far.
3. Turkey?s betrayal of the coalition has presented a major impediment to the war effort and will almost certainly result in additional coalition deaths.

President Bush?s supplemental budget lists $1 billion in aid for Turkey. No damned way. Congress should strike that entire appropriate. Actions have consequences, even for turkeys.

 

[gardenweasel]

i think i agree to an extent

i think i agree to an extent

i understand how large a part that internal politics play in this issue.......and how turkish public opinion is running almost unanimously against the war....and that the new turkish leadership is walking a thin line.....but,if our allies do not help us in a crisis,are they really our allies?.....

in all fairness,we are using their airspace....and to be fair,we really don`t know what kind of "behind the scenes" help we may be getting.....it`s hard politically for the turkish government to support us publicly....that`s very understandable....i don`t know if we will ever know the full extent of turkish assisitance.....but,there is no doubt that turkish recalcitrance has seriously hamstrung our efforts.....i hate to weigh in definitively without knowing all the facts....

 

[acehistr8]

I also hate to comment too much on the internal politics of Turkey and am certainly pissed as hell they are not helping us 110%. But they ARE giving us overlfight rights which is huge and are apparently considering the use of their bases. But Turkey is a Nato member and has a democratically elected parliment. These folks elected a government and overwhelmingly (like 90%) oppose the war. While I dont like it, who are we to tell them that they can elect and have a democracy only while it suports us?

France is another matter altogether.

 

[Blazer]

 

[ozball]

Great point acehistr8,

about the democracies that oppose the war. I think democracies in the middle east will be a bigger problem for the US than the current autocracies and dictatorships.

Popular support for the US is not very high in most arab middle east countries, and there is much more potential for unfriendly governments being elected in countries like Saudi Arabia, Iraq, jordan etc. The current undemocratic governments in places like Saudi has been supported in the past by the US, because it is easier to manage a "King or Prince" than an elected Saudi parliament and prime minister.

The current push for democratizing the middle east, and liberating the oppressed will likely backfire on the US, especially in countries like Saudi that do not need to rely on US aid.

ozball

 

[dr. freeze]

Great point acehistr8,

about the democracies that oppose the war. I think democracies in the middle east will be a bigger problem for the US than the current autocracies and dictatorships.

Popular support for the US is not very high in most arab middle east countries, and there is much more potential for unfriendly governments being elected in countries like Saudi Arabia, Iraq, jordan etc. The current undemocratic governments in places like Saudi has been supported in the past by the US, because it is easier to manage a "King or Prince" than an elected Saudi parliament and prime minister.

The current push for democratizing the middle east, and liberating the oppressed will likely backfire on the US, especially in countries like Saudi that do not need to rely on US aid.

ozball

very good point.....

points like this and other coherent thoughts SHOULD be listened to other than the BS such as "UN-approval", "US terrorizing Iraqi civilians", "Bush is the real terrorist" and other garbage which some anti-war people talk about.....

Pat Buchanan made some very good points as well about leaving this region alone...its just too bad the whole debate gets soured by the communists and other leftists with incoherent thoughts, insinuations, and other trash....

there ARE some good arguments for not getting involved over there...personally i think the risks of inaction right now exceed the risks of action but nevertheless we need to take all these into consideration....it truly is a corner we are backed into and neither option is good...

 

[ozball]

If a big part of the US invasion reasoning is "freedom for the Iraqi people", then Bush and co need to be prepared to follow the democratic wishes of the Iraqi people which may involve a choice of freedom from US influence.

cheers

ozball

 

[gardenweasel]

people don`t like to hear it

people don`t like to hear it

but the truth is muslim`s hate every body else.....if you aren`t a believer,you are an infidel......i don``t think it`s a coincidence that anti-semitism as applied to israel and the u.s. is rampant in france(with their burgeoning muslim population).....hate crimes against jews have been on the increase in the last few years......especially this past year.....in turkey,the shopping area known as "little america" is a ghost town and is being vandalized on a regular basis........they hate us.......a good portion of that hate has to do with israel.....a good portion has to do with the fact that we are living,breathing proof that the western way of life is successful and prosperous and for the most part,the muslim world in comparison,is a failure(except for the despots and royal families)......if not for sitting on top of black gold,the middle east is....well,a desert....... what i say isn`t politically correct,but,if you are honest,you know it`s true.....

 

[Jhpga]

Re: people don`t like to hear it

Re: people don`t like to hear it

but the truth is muslim`s hate every body else.....if you aren`t a believer,you are an infidel......i don``t think it`s a coincidence that anti-semitism as applied to israel and the u.s. is rampant in france(with their burgeoning muslim population).....hate crimes against jews have been on the increase in the last few years......especially this past year.....in turkey,the shopping area known as "little america" is a ghost town and is being vandalized on a regular basis........they hate us.......a good portion of that hate has to do with israel.....a good portion has to do with the fact that we are living,breathing proof that the western way of life is successful and prosperous and for the most part,the muslim world in comparison,is a failure(except for the despots and royal families)......if not for sitting on top of black gold,the middle east is....well,a desert....... what i say isn`t politically correct,but,if you are honest,you know it`s true.....

:toast:

I wont say that all Muslims hate everybody else but the new Islamic Muslim movement that is sweeping across the Middle East hates everyone...including other Muslims.The Hamas,Hezbollah,PFPLA,PLO,Islamic Jihad,Al Qaida,and whatever else hate group of their kind are the scum of the earth.They have sent 4000 of these scums to Iraq to suicide bomb US troops.They are at war with Christians,Jews and Hindus.Does anybody else see the connection????These people will stop at nothing to kill either me or you.They have corrupted the whole Middle East and have made it into a killing zone.You have to ask yourself....what kind of hatred does someone have to make themself a suicide bomber????I dont see too many Baptists,Church of Christ, or Methodists strapping C4 to themself and walking into some Mosque just to kill Muslims.The new Islamic Muslim way is very dangerous to the whole world and it must be stopped.It wont be long before they are over in America doing the suicide bombings here......well they already have.....with the 9/11 attack.

 

[TheShrimp]

But WHY the hate?

Do you really think it is as simple as "they're not muslims, lets kill them"?

Do you think that the Palestinians who get their houses bulldozed by the Israelis, and who have NO diplomatic channels through which to operate, are blowing themselves up just because "they're not muslims"?

Do you think that certain Muslims think that the US influence in their region of the world (through Israel and otherwise) is corrupting the religious atmosphere in which they want their children raised and their countries run?

There are reasons for the hate. The muslims aren't targeting the Japanese, the Mexicans, the Canadians, etc. etc. etc.

There are reasons they hate the US. Those reasons hardly justify flying a plane into a building filled with innocent people, but I think that there are ways to address it and lessen it without invading one of their countries.

Maybe this means changing our policy towards Israel, or removing troops from the region altogether (certainly the ideas that someone like Buchanan has supported, as Freeze mentioned somewhere).

Don't be so simple to assume they hate us just because we're prosperous (then why haven't they attacked the swedes? the japanese? etc.) or because they hate freedom (why haven't they attacked the Netherlands? Denmark?). We have an aggressive middle east policy. I believe it is only the most radical of them that suicide bomb and want to kill us, but I don't think its hard to put yourself in their shoes either.

 

[djv]

No black gold in the ground over in middle east and you would still have the tent people. Thats the truth. If it was not for the oil what else have they done. The tripes fought each other for 100's of years. Give them the chance they will start again. But right now they have Israel and US. Take that away they would start with each other again.

 

[gardenweasel]

it`s a revisitation

it`s a revisitation

of the ways of the past....people that refuse to move into the 21st century.....knowing that the only way to preserve their neanderthal beliefs and way of life is to terrorize and subjugate their own people...the west is an enormous threat to that.....does anyone really believe that life under an ayatollah khomeini is a good thing for the iranian people?.....cutting off the hand of a thief?.....hanging a dissident at a train station....shunning and ostracizing women who are raped,not the perpetrator?........the people have the right to decide whether they want this type of society....but they don`t have the choice....and now,it`s been brought to our shores....do we sit back and take it....or act to nip it in the bud?.....when i get hit,it`s on.....i think most americans feel the same way...

 

[djv]

I like that if I get hit it's on. Sounds like me till I was over 40. I said enough of this chit. Got to find away not to overly piss anyone off. It your given or taken or both hurts more after 40.

 

[Jhpga]

But WHY the hate?


There are reasons for the hate. The muslims aren't targeting the Japanese, the Mexicans, the Canadians, etc. etc. etc.

They might not target them like Americans and Jews but they killed Japanese,Mexicans,Canadians and alot of others on 9/11. I dont think the suicide bomber cares if your Swede,English,American or whatever..He just wants to kill in the name of Allah.

Shrimp...you should be a Islamic Jihad defense attorney.I havent seen one cause that you dont defend them.They want to kill you and your family but somehow you find a way to blame the American government for their hate.So I guess the Hamas,Hezbollah and others that are own their way to suicide bomb US troops should be forgiven cause we have made them mad at us.I dont mind people who have different views than mine but to defend suicide bombers is a all time low .......even for DA SHRIMP!!!

 

[Jhpga]

But WHY the hate?

I believe it is only the most radical of them that suicide bomb and want to kill us, but I don't think its hard to put yourself in their shoes either.

I think you meant sandals.....but please explain to us all how it would be easy to hate someone sooo much that you strap C4 to yourself and walk on a bus and blow yourself and several other innocent men,women and children to death.I myself cant see this but your the one who said it would not be hard to justify.I have no respect or admiration for suicide bombers who want to kill Americans just because we are Americans.I hope our troops kill them before they perform their suicide duties to allah against our troops....but sadly not all Americans feel the same way......

 

[TheShrimp]

Of course they killed those people but they targeted the US. Shoot, they killed muslims who worked there.

Fact is, they didn't fly a plane into skyscrapers in Tokyo, Oslo, or Copenhagen. They hate the US, in particular, for a reason.

As far as suicide bombers go, I absolutely think their actions can be justified (if you think that's a new low for me, you don't know me ). The palenstinians who live within the borders of Israel are simply getting their houses plowed over and they have no voice in the Israeli government. Those are last ditch efforts by desparate people to save their homes and land. I hope Americans would do the same thing if it came to it.

They kill women and children to save their own women and children. And, if you believe that killing women and children can not ever be justified under any circumstances, then we can get out of Iraq right now, because we're doing as much of it as any suicide bomber does. Think about how easy we have justified it in this war.

Perhaps you saw this.

 

[gardenweasel]

djv

djv

i`m in that general vicinity and your point is taken(lmao)...i`m still in the same shape....probably not as capable (that means i`m probably fooling myself).....but,i understand someone`s reluctance to agree with this war....i would only hope it`s based on honest,independent opinion,not just the usual political bias....that is, if this were gore or clinton,each person could look in the mirror and honestly say,i still disagree just as vehemently with this war...

 

[TheShrimp]

I think you meant sandals.....but please explain to us all how it would be easy to hate someone sooo much that you strap C4 to yourself and walk on a bus and blow yourself and several other innocent men,women and children to death.

Well, I've said it twice already, but I believe the mindset is "we will continue to kill your women and children because we have absolutely no voice in the government. You roll into our villages with your tanks and soldiers which we have no chance of fighting so we're going to strike back the best way we can. one of us for 15 of you."

I'm not saying I'd do it. I'm saying I find it very easy to imagine someone being in that mindset though.

I'd justify what the Iraqi suicide bomber did the same way.

 

[dr. freeze]

so you think that we should just throw out the rules of war given by the Geneva convention that is designed to save civilianlives?

 

[acehistr8]

so you think that we should just throw out the rules of war given by the Geneva convention that is designed to save civilianlives?

Well bluntly, yes. What do you suggest as an alternative? Thousands of Iraqi militants are dressing as civilians and planning suicide attacks on American troops. So if a vehicle is going full speed at a checkpoint and shows no indication of stopping, what do you recommend we do? They fired a warning shot, disabled the tires and the vehicles kept coming.

Last week a civilian vehicle approached a checkpoint, stopped, the guy got out called the soldiers over and detonated. Four marines died. To say nothing of the fact the militants are dressing as civilians. If the militants are forcing civilians to launch attacks on us, then yes, we must kill them before they kill us.