Turfgrass I completely agree with you. From a capitalist/economics point of view, I say let the chips fall where they may. The planes will get bought, the routes will get picked up. There was a huge shakeout in this industry before and airlines that people thought were "untouchable" went under. Things came out ok, and they will again. And yes, if airlines cant keep themselves afloat then I do think we should let them sink. But I think this of any industry, not just the airlines.
Pro-Union read this
- Thread starter dawgball
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acehistr8 said:
Interesting quote Ace, I live in Texas own a Ford F150 and there is a sticker in the windshield that says "Quality built in Virginia, Norfolk assembly plane UAW". Can you please elaborate a bit one what you mean?
Sorry ryson, I meant no offense to Ford owners or to anyone that lives in Texas, it was simply a reference to its proximity to Mexico where GM and I believe Ford still have chassis and parts plants - plants that usually build chassis, parts and other assemblies which are then shipped to the US where the cars are "built". I have no doubt the car was actually assembled in America.
acehistr8 said:
No offense taken what so ever, just wondering:weed: Get this Toyota has started construction of a huge plant in San Antonio...very interesting.
Thanks ryson. 
The Toyota plant is exactly my point in terms of people who think with economic isolationist blinders on. They think "Oh I wont buy a Toyota, damn Japanese steal profits from American car companies" when there will probably be thousands of American familes who benefit from the opening of a plant like that, though I admit I dont know how many people work at a car plant like that.
The Toyota plant is exactly my point in terms of people who think with economic isolationist blinders on. They think "Oh I wont buy a Toyota, damn Japanese steal profits from American car companies" when there will probably be thousands of American familes who benefit from the opening of a plant like that, though I admit I dont know how many people work at a car plant like that.
cars
cars
Nissian Sedans are made 20 miles outside of Nashville, Tenn.
M-class Mercedes are made 40 miles south of Birmingham, Alabama.
There are very few cars made in one place or another. All the parts for the two locations metioned above are made in seperate places.
Not buying a particular vehicle is not a good way to make a political statement because the manufacturing is so widespread.
:nono:
cars
Nissian Sedans are made 20 miles outside of Nashville, Tenn.
M-class Mercedes are made 40 miles south of Birmingham, Alabama.
There are very few cars made in one place or another. All the parts for the two locations metioned above are made in seperate places.
Not buying a particular vehicle is not a good way to make a political statement because the manufacturing is so widespread.
:nono:
You hate to see it happen. You dont want to pick one industry and say it's bad. But even before 9/11 some airlines were in deep trouble. Running routes loseing money. Half or less Full planes. I rode on some so I know what I was seeing. I also met many a customer at the airport as part of my job and would see 30 people come of a plane that would hold 135 many times. So even with out 9/11 we were on the way to droppng at least one maybe two. With 9/11 I think the maybe for two is a sure thing. The only way they keep running is govenment bail out. I would say ok bail them out if we would get our money back. It is yours and mind. When WE bailed Crysler out 15/16 years ago. The Crysler corp payed us back 3 years early with alittle interest to boot. Not sure how a dieing airline before 9/11 let alone after 9/11 will ever do that. Folks car sales in this country stay strong and steady for a reason. And it's not all rebates. Folks are staying closer to home. Our nations four biggest national parks are sold out for camping. They were sold out by January 1st. They never been sold out before May1st before. People are going places where they can drive them self.
I could see bailing out the airlines if they were making a ton of money pre-9/11. But the fact is half of the majors were losing Billions of dollars before that hit. The Billions the govt pumped in was like putting one tiny finger in a dyke with a thousand holes. They burn through far too much cash to make it worthwhile. Hopefully the govt cave in this time. I believe in the market forces and I believe the shakeout will improve things in the long run.
Ace,
point taken, I edited my post to remove most of the disparaging comments. I read your last post and have come to the conclusion that you are not willing to listen to my side either I don't think. No union has asked the government for a penny. I find it both disheartening and discouraging to think that you or anybody for that matter can believe that after over fifty years of step raises, that have never been more than inflationary and cost of living increases, the union wage is what has caused the airlines to completely mismanage themselves into a hole and you act as if it is us that is at fault. That is tantamount to saying it was the checkers aand stock clerks that caused K-Mart to go under. OR food lion failed due to the baggers union. As I said, and will continue to believe, the public is vastly underinformed on the situation and it is happy that way. Corporate leaders have gotten fat dring the most prosperous years since inception up to the month of september 11th, and we have not said a word yet as soon as the steak runs out the company fat cats point the finger at us. In conclusion, I am sorry I got on you and apologize, I do however take great offense to your statements regarding overseas jobs and am completely disheartened by the fact that you believe you are educated on the union side and management side of the labor issue. You are, however unfortunate for me, the norm of todays society. Most people think that the "magic better working conditions fairy" came down from somewhere and got the children out of the factories and broke up the sweat shops and tapestry shops and got you weekends off. Somehow people believe that corporate greed no longer exists and that a CEO would never lie to us, they are just trying to make the world a better place. As far as the rest of my post goes you did not address any of the things I brought up that you were shall we say economical with the facts about, so my choice will be to shut up. And I still enjoy your posts.
FDC
point taken, I edited my post to remove most of the disparaging comments. I read your last post and have come to the conclusion that you are not willing to listen to my side either I don't think. No union has asked the government for a penny. I find it both disheartening and discouraging to think that you or anybody for that matter can believe that after over fifty years of step raises, that have never been more than inflationary and cost of living increases, the union wage is what has caused the airlines to completely mismanage themselves into a hole and you act as if it is us that is at fault. That is tantamount to saying it was the checkers aand stock clerks that caused K-Mart to go under. OR food lion failed due to the baggers union. As I said, and will continue to believe, the public is vastly underinformed on the situation and it is happy that way. Corporate leaders have gotten fat dring the most prosperous years since inception up to the month of september 11th, and we have not said a word yet as soon as the steak runs out the company fat cats point the finger at us. In conclusion, I am sorry I got on you and apologize, I do however take great offense to your statements regarding overseas jobs and am completely disheartened by the fact that you believe you are educated on the union side and management side of the labor issue. You are, however unfortunate for me, the norm of todays society. Most people think that the "magic better working conditions fairy" came down from somewhere and got the children out of the factories and broke up the sweat shops and tapestry shops and got you weekends off. Somehow people believe that corporate greed no longer exists and that a CEO would never lie to us, they are just trying to make the world a better place. As far as the rest of my post goes you did not address any of the things I brought up that you were shall we say economical with the facts about, so my choice will be to shut up. And I still enjoy your posts.
FDC
Thanks fdc, a little vigorous debate never hurt anyone. I think its safe to say we can agree to disagree on this point. But thats what living in this country is all about, right?
- Feb 12, 2000
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FDC--this is not the way I fell, and I am going to take a guess that nobody in their right mind does. BUT, I do feel that Unions are a weight --not a help-- to our overall economy. There are companies out there that would not treat their employees completely fairly if it were not for Unions, but for the most part, I feel that our economy and the state of American quality would raise without Unions.
Ace--I can tell you that there are a LOT more workers in Union shops than there are in non-Union. I am only referring to the Auto industry here. There is not a major US manufacturer that I have not personally witnessed this in. Comparing Ford, GM, and Chrysler to the likes of Toyota and Nissan is a complete joke. There is no comparison. The Japanese-modeled shops are more efficient, cleaner, produce better products (in general) and have happier employees.
I witnessed this as a third-party. Had no personal interest to side with management or workers in any of the situations. My job was to keep both sides happy.
FDC-- I have stated to you before that I have zero experience with the airline industry, so I have nothing to add to yours and Ace's conversation about it. I am against government funds to assist the airline industry this time around, though. This is for several reasons and does not have to do with Unions at all.
FWIW,
Unions have absolutely nothing to do with how the company runs its business, it simply protects wages and jobs, if the company needs to lay off people we really have no recourse.
What I wish you would all understand is this, I gave turf a complete chronolgical list of my experience in aviation maintenance with over twenty years of experience to get to the level I am at. My wages since being hired at American have increased with time but my health care has decreased. Don Carty CEO of american airlines has had more than a 108% increase in yearly compensation over the tenure of his career do you think that mine mirrors that? What you will soon see is me getting my wages cut by more than 20% because of the airlines failure to manage THEIR BUSINESS NOT MINE. They are the ones that paid more than 7 billion to acquire TWA which was already in bankruptcy, they are the ones that increased management headcount by almost 300% in the last five years and they continue to hire in management to this day. They are the ones that decided to purchase the Fokker 100's when market and business analysts and the unions themselves balked at it. That little decision cost the company 837 million last Quarter!
Let me ask you all this......do you think that somehow the loan they are asking for from the government are somehow traced back to poor business decsions made by union personnel? You guys just don't see the point....the mechanics and pilots unions have been in place for more than 4 decades. American went from a little struggling airline to the largest in the world and the entire time the unions took concessionary wages, then the COMPANY pissed away a 10 billion dollar surplus of cash and assets in one year and that is the unions fault.
Do any of you realize that I/my union will be taken to court by American and they will cry the same crap as the media that they need wage concessions to survive yet can you believe that we have been in negotiations with them for a month now and they still have not come up with a business plan on what they will do with the 2.8 billion a year in savings they are asking from us. Is that really to much to ask? Hey you want my money what are you going to do with it how will you change the way we currently operate so as not to be in this position again, and when we turn a profit will all that be snapped back? But you see we don't get an answer for that and don't you think I deserve that at least? Make no mistake, the 29% of my wage they are trying to take WILL cause me to lose my house and thousands others. I am a single father with a small house in Texas, do any of you think you could take a third of your pay and still make it. If you make fifteen and go to ten to save an airline do you think I deserve at least to be heard or a fair shake? Do you think I will get a fair shake from Republican leadership? Or the big guy like Carty? How about a judge that can be bought, or worse a congressman?
I think you guys fail to see the big picture. .......the truth is this......the big three airlines especially united and american did this on purpose. This bankruptcy was conceived and carried out by the very ones you support.
Unions have absolutely nothing to do with how the company runs its business, it simply protects wages and jobs, if the company needs to lay off people we really have no recourse.
What I wish you would all understand is this, I gave turf a complete chronolgical list of my experience in aviation maintenance with over twenty years of experience to get to the level I am at. My wages since being hired at American have increased with time but my health care has decreased. Don Carty CEO of american airlines has had more than a 108% increase in yearly compensation over the tenure of his career do you think that mine mirrors that? What you will soon see is me getting my wages cut by more than 20% because of the airlines failure to manage THEIR BUSINESS NOT MINE. They are the ones that paid more than 7 billion to acquire TWA which was already in bankruptcy, they are the ones that increased management headcount by almost 300% in the last five years and they continue to hire in management to this day. They are the ones that decided to purchase the Fokker 100's when market and business analysts and the unions themselves balked at it. That little decision cost the company 837 million last Quarter!
Let me ask you all this......do you think that somehow the loan they are asking for from the government are somehow traced back to poor business decsions made by union personnel? You guys just don't see the point....the mechanics and pilots unions have been in place for more than 4 decades. American went from a little struggling airline to the largest in the world and the entire time the unions took concessionary wages, then the COMPANY pissed away a 10 billion dollar surplus of cash and assets in one year and that is the unions fault.
Do any of you realize that I/my union will be taken to court by American and they will cry the same crap as the media that they need wage concessions to survive yet can you believe that we have been in negotiations with them for a month now and they still have not come up with a business plan on what they will do with the 2.8 billion a year in savings they are asking from us. Is that really to much to ask? Hey you want my money what are you going to do with it how will you change the way we currently operate so as not to be in this position again, and when we turn a profit will all that be snapped back? But you see we don't get an answer for that and don't you think I deserve that at least? Make no mistake, the 29% of my wage they are trying to take WILL cause me to lose my house and thousands others. I am a single father with a small house in Texas, do any of you think you could take a third of your pay and still make it. If you make fifteen and go to ten to save an airline do you think I deserve at least to be heard or a fair shake? Do you think I will get a fair shake from Republican leadership? Or the big guy like Carty? How about a judge that can be bought, or worse a congressman?
I think you guys fail to see the big picture. .......the truth is this......the big three airlines especially united and american did this on purpose. This bankruptcy was conceived and carried out by the very ones you support.
I'm sorry fdc, but this bankruptcy was not "conceived" I cannot believe that so please dont go there. This industry was sinking like a stone before 9/11 due to egrigously high labor costs (40% or more of an airline's operating cost) and generally shitty business plans. Big airlines have been held over a barrel for years by pilots who just walk out if they dont get what they want, this happened to United a few years back. Again I refer mostly to the large pilots unions and not necesarily to small shops such as yours. Consequently airlines agree to contracts that yes management probably knows they cannot afford 4 years down the line, but shit they better sign on now or their planes wont be in the air, figure it out latter. The bottom line is management is not willing to admit they have a bad plan in place and the unions are not willing to budge on the fat deals they have negotiated.
Can I put total "blame" on either party? Of course not. But I cant expect you to have a two sided conversation either, I mean you come from one side of the argument and are unwilling to admit the possibilty that any unions anywhere have had a negative impact on any business's developement. Fine. Like I said, probably best to agree to disagree. But just out of curiosity, given the situation the way it is today, REGARDLESS of who you blame for the way things are, would you rather take wage cuts, or not have a job altogether, the market being what it is? Right, see myself being unemployed for 6 months forgive me for asking.
My mother has been union for 20 years, teachers union. Shes one of the best, hardest working teachers I know. Would she be where she is today without the union? Yes, I believe she would. There are teachers throughout our system who do what they have to do to get by, knowing they virtually cannot be fired because of the grievance process the school has to go through to fire them. Is this fair? It makes me fvcking puke. Youre telling me you know noone like this anywhere? Guys who are union who do what they have to do and not one drop more knowing they cant get fired? Every election week, union stewards call our house 6-10 times reminding her who the union is "encouraging" teachers to vote for this time around. Also if you wanted we could talk about things like the Culinary Union in Las Vegas. For those who dont know, if a private individual builds a casino with their own money and wants to leave it up to its workers to decide for themselves (shocking concept) if they want to unionize (specifically, the Rio and Venetian) they are subject to loud and irriating pickets on the sidewalks where patrons walk in. Does this seem right to anyone? An owner wants to let his employees decide for themselves whether to unionize, as a consequence, patrons entering his establishment walk through picket lines and bullhorns.
I really am sorry about your situation, I think you said you work with about 300 other guys, and I do feel that in these cases there are real people who suffer. But no, I do not feel the govt should pump any more money into this industry. I lost my job 6 months ago and have been living on unemployment. Should the govt give billions of dollars to the consulting industry to help them? What about IT? You could argue business in the US could absorb a failure of the airline industry better than it could a failure of the IT industry? I feel the same way about airlines as I do about things like small farms. I am tired of the govt wasting my tax dollars propping up business who have only proven time and time again they cannot run themselves right.
Can I put total "blame" on either party? Of course not. But I cant expect you to have a two sided conversation either, I mean you come from one side of the argument and are unwilling to admit the possibilty that any unions anywhere have had a negative impact on any business's developement. Fine. Like I said, probably best to agree to disagree. But just out of curiosity, given the situation the way it is today, REGARDLESS of who you blame for the way things are, would you rather take wage cuts, or not have a job altogether, the market being what it is? Right, see myself being unemployed for 6 months forgive me for asking.
My mother has been union for 20 years, teachers union. Shes one of the best, hardest working teachers I know. Would she be where she is today without the union? Yes, I believe she would. There are teachers throughout our system who do what they have to do to get by, knowing they virtually cannot be fired because of the grievance process the school has to go through to fire them. Is this fair? It makes me fvcking puke. Youre telling me you know noone like this anywhere? Guys who are union who do what they have to do and not one drop more knowing they cant get fired? Every election week, union stewards call our house 6-10 times reminding her who the union is "encouraging" teachers to vote for this time around. Also if you wanted we could talk about things like the Culinary Union in Las Vegas. For those who dont know, if a private individual builds a casino with their own money and wants to leave it up to its workers to decide for themselves (shocking concept) if they want to unionize (specifically, the Rio and Venetian) they are subject to loud and irriating pickets on the sidewalks where patrons walk in. Does this seem right to anyone? An owner wants to let his employees decide for themselves whether to unionize, as a consequence, patrons entering his establishment walk through picket lines and bullhorns.
I really am sorry about your situation, I think you said you work with about 300 other guys, and I do feel that in these cases there are real people who suffer. But no, I do not feel the govt should pump any more money into this industry. I lost my job 6 months ago and have been living on unemployment. Should the govt give billions of dollars to the consulting industry to help them? What about IT? You could argue business in the US could absorb a failure of the airline industry better than it could a failure of the IT industry? I feel the same way about airlines as I do about things like small farms. I am tired of the govt wasting my tax dollars propping up business who have only proven time and time again they cannot run themselves right.
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The mechanics at United or american have not struck since I have been there and the pilots were forced back to work by the PEB removing the only leverage that the pilots and unions have and that is the ability to strike. The pilots union nor the mechanics union does not pump money into the pockets of political lobbyists as do the companies. I repeat the company is the one that plowed the airline into the ground. If it is wages that are the sole cause then why is Southwest making money when ALL their union labor groups are paid more than ours?
If you would like me to show you the exact business plan that United and American devised to drive the industry to this state I would be happy to point you to a book written by Frank Lorenzo on exactly this subject and then you can follow the timeline. I understand that some labor costs may be extravagant. I do not however believe that the union laborer should bear the entire financial burden of poor business. As far as seeing both sides of the story I live on one side and have first hand knowledge of the other through years of hands on experience. I am not saying you are wrong but misinformed and misled. Tell me any other company, union or non-union that employs more than 100,000 employees whose payroll is not hovering at 40%. Also to say that airlines would knowingly enter into an agreement that they know they can't cover is somewhat absurd. The only way they would even entertain that thought is if they knew they weren't going to honor it in the first place which brings us back to the first argument that the airlines knew exactly what they are doing. To truly know what side you are defending I would suggest you look at the financial reports of the last year or so and see what they have spent on political lobbyists for collective bargaining reform. I am sorry you think that all of us union guys are a bunch of lazy good for nothing strong arms that do only what is necessary but let me inform you I gave two proposals to the company last week saving them close to 5 million a year as I hold a position with the union and part of that job is the financial analysis of work performed by our company. It is a joint union management venture, of which I chair. The company summarily dismissed both of them due to a blue snit by one of the upper level managers who is mad at me for hurting his feelings last week when I called him on a lie in front of his town hall meeting. I will not go into the semantics of the whole thing but can you believe that? A good company man disregarding millions of dollars in savings due to hurt feelings. Happens all the time.
Ace,
I understand your point of view and believe it to be wrong but I still think you are a good guy at heart and will agree to disagree but I think you are dead wrong on a lot of issues. As I said I live this life, your knowledge comes from media and hearsay for the most part and that is not meant as a slam only saying you don't work for either side and can have no first hand knowledge of how truly evil mid level management and upper level management is at my place of employment.
FDC
If you would like me to show you the exact business plan that United and American devised to drive the industry to this state I would be happy to point you to a book written by Frank Lorenzo on exactly this subject and then you can follow the timeline. I understand that some labor costs may be extravagant. I do not however believe that the union laborer should bear the entire financial burden of poor business. As far as seeing both sides of the story I live on one side and have first hand knowledge of the other through years of hands on experience. I am not saying you are wrong but misinformed and misled. Tell me any other company, union or non-union that employs more than 100,000 employees whose payroll is not hovering at 40%. Also to say that airlines would knowingly enter into an agreement that they know they can't cover is somewhat absurd. The only way they would even entertain that thought is if they knew they weren't going to honor it in the first place which brings us back to the first argument that the airlines knew exactly what they are doing. To truly know what side you are defending I would suggest you look at the financial reports of the last year or so and see what they have spent on political lobbyists for collective bargaining reform. I am sorry you think that all of us union guys are a bunch of lazy good for nothing strong arms that do only what is necessary but let me inform you I gave two proposals to the company last week saving them close to 5 million a year as I hold a position with the union and part of that job is the financial analysis of work performed by our company. It is a joint union management venture, of which I chair. The company summarily dismissed both of them due to a blue snit by one of the upper level managers who is mad at me for hurting his feelings last week when I called him on a lie in front of his town hall meeting. I will not go into the semantics of the whole thing but can you believe that? A good company man disregarding millions of dollars in savings due to hurt feelings. Happens all the time.
Ace,
I understand your point of view and believe it to be wrong but I still think you are a good guy at heart and will agree to disagree but I think you are dead wrong on a lot of issues. As I said I live this life, your knowledge comes from media and hearsay for the most part and that is not meant as a slam only saying you don't work for either side and can have no first hand knowledge of how truly evil mid level management and upper level management is at my place of employment.
FDC
fatdaddycool said:
I guess then anything ever written or said that in any way, shape or form disparages unions even one little bit must be heresay. The difference between you and me is I am able to share blame between union and management, whereas you only believe in the evil dark lords at the top and dont think anyone in unions has ever done wrong. Thats fine, you are entitled to your opinion as I am mine.
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In all actuality AceHi, I do believe that the representation I get at the International level is crooked and in bed with the company, meaning, I have complete confidence in the guys that represent our membership at the local level and representation of more than 2000 by just a handful of officers is no easy task. The International officers however are a different story. They are crooked and liars for the most part and I don't trust them at all. They are what is bad with the union they are the "good old boy group" that is proving difficult to remove. However I truly do try to base all my decisions, concerning any matter, on truth and not rhetoric or propaganda. I do not think that the International Union representation has my best interests at heart at this present time as we have entered into negotiations with the company on wage concessions. I cannot explain to you how disheartening this is to me personally. You see Ace, I am a middle class worker with a middle class income. I do not have overseas accounts, or a lake house. I have not been given an exhorbitant number of stock options, as my management team has. I have not seen the growth in my work group as far as headcount and salary goes that management has. I have no problem discussing wage packages with a company that would or will be truthful with me. You want my money then I need to see at least a similar commitment from you, but we are not getting that. The company will not provide a business plan, nor a wage scale for themselves, or even open the books for us to look at to determine where we went wrong. One question my friend and please ask your self this as if it concerned you in some way....don't you think that if a manager manages a company into the ground after it has posted a decade of record setting profits he should be fired or resign? How does Don Carty come out of this as if he suffers no responsibility? If it is the union then why is Southwest doing so well? Why is Herb Kelleher considered one of the best CEO's and Bob Crandall as well, yet you don't hear Don's name in those same circles. Don't you think that if his decisions affect more than 100,000 peoples livelihoods and cause that much financial troulbe to that many people he should answer for it?
I want to edit this to add, you know, I am sorry you are having to take a pay cut. But you know what your problem is in this debate as well as your situation? You have ZERO ability to look at the other side or concede they may have valid points. As far as mgmt not showing you the books, why should they? Are you showing them proof that productivity will continue unimpeaded? If I read Jim Littles statement right yesterday, he conceded that without concessions, the airline would cease operations. I guess that is something you would rather see at this point. FDC, all you think about is how right you are and how wrong everyone else is. Why dont you get a damn clue and think of the 400,000+ people per month that get LAID OFF and thrown out into the worst job market in a decade. You know what happens when you get LAID OFF? It means you get a 100% pay cut, right then and there. Would you rather American just laid all you guys off and went into liquidation, would that make you feel better here? Or would you rather take a pay cut to have a job for another 6 months? I am not saying you should thank them at all or feel good about it, but why dont you stop for a minute and think about what you are saying. Its insulting. When my boss came to us that day 6 months ago he didnt say "Well Phil the business isnt what it was 6 years ago. The good news is you get to keep your nice job, your health benefits, your retirement and anything else you managed to negotiate, we are asking you take a 25% cut in pay to help us out." In the non-union world there are hundreds of thousands worse off than you like myself, who live on $1300 a month in unemployment with no benefits whatsoever, so pardon me if I dont keel over with guilt.
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Save a job anyway you can I was taught along time ago. At least while you have it you dont go in hole to far. And you have more time to look for another if you wish. If you are out on the black top looking in it's to late. In the big turn down in this country of 88/89 thing got real slow. My company asked if we all would forgo raises for extra 6 months. It also asked if everyone would take 11/2% less at that time. This was for us none union workers and the union both. 86% of us said yes. Union had a vote and they had us none union vote also. Worked well. And three years later to show there support to us. They gave us all a one time extra weeks vaction. And everyone got 1% more then there normal rate. Yes we were still out a little. But all still had jobs and nice benies. So working togeather can work. By the way our mid and top management all took 5% cuts.
fatdaddycool said:
sounds like too many chiefs and not enough indians, but don't u have other staff like clerical, houskeeping, maintenance, etc? It's not just a building full of managers and mechanics is it? Who cleans the toilets? Are those people not under the direction of the 109 members of management, or were just including managers of mechanics? I admit, I am ignorant to many of these union dynamics, and fdc, u have even told me what an idiot I am before. I still don't understand many of your points. These managers are not in a union, correct?
I don't have a union here, but I know there are unions in my field (nursing) up East. I think I am understanding by your posts that the real power a union has is the ability to ultimately strike and produce a work stoppage. How could a nurse strike? How could a teacher in a teacher's union strike? Would striking not be so harmful and detrimental to the welfare of the dependent patients/students? I just don't understand that. I don't think I could ethically ever strike. Heck, I can't even bring myself to call in sick, and only have over 10 years with a fever of 103, a broken leg, and a ruptured disc. Anyway, main question is about all those managers u have in that building. Thanks.
sixfive,
If I called you an idiot I apologize, alot of times I get worked up a little bit and then later realize some things may have been said in poor taste. We have building cleaners but they are contract hires managed by their firm. Included in the numbers of mech would also include facility maintenance, tool and die, welders, parts washers , etc.. all of which are unionized. As far as clerical there is some not many, we also have engineers that have their own management team none of which I included in the numbers. The numbers are posted with reference to maintenance. Those management personnel are for maintenance only. Yes there are too many chiefs, but those numbers never get published. 98% of all labor negotiations, covering all unions, are ended without a strike. Management waste is unbelievable. The company moved one type engine shop, specifically the Tay 650, to another area of the building. In doing so they rendered the pits that they had spent 30 million dollars on ten years ago absolutely useless. Reason? Because they didn't not want to beef up to ten ton capacity 200 yards of crane rail, approximate cost 750,000. Yet they require a Doctors note from you if you call in sick because they are cutting back?
Ace,
What do you want me to concede? What am I suppose to give in to? That you are right? That union wages caused the airline to mismanage it money, never improve on an outdated business plan, spend 7 billion on a bankrupt airline, triple in size on the management side, that I sit outside of houses and shops and strong arm people into joining or who to vote for? That I am a shiftless good for nothing that only does what needs to be done and nothing more?
Let me make something very clear....every....and I mean every instance you have brought forward to support your position I have given clear and concise answers too, yet you have not addressed anything I have asked of you. Your answer is that I am not willing to listen to your side. Let me tell you something Ace, you sound very much like the management we have at our company, they too never really make a point or answer a question. I will ask you again?
If it is the unions fault, why is Southwest making money, as they are the highest paid and most highly unionized airline of all?
Why should I bear the financial burden of corporate mismanagement I am no more guilty of it then you are?
At what point is the CEO and CFO and COO and whoever the hell else held accountable for their past, present, and future decisions?
I am held accountable for my production every minute of the day. Contrary to what you may think I stay busy all day long, I don't take smoke breaks every five or any of that other stereotypical crap you may believe. So tell me why am I held accountable to the public also?
Why should I be called a hardliner or unreasonable because I am unwilling to throw my wages at a failing company?
Why should I not be able to control my own destiny, professionally?
Answer any three of those questions preferably the first three as those are the heart of the matter before you ask me to concede that I am unwilling to listen. Heck thats all I have done is listen so far.
If I called you an idiot I apologize, alot of times I get worked up a little bit and then later realize some things may have been said in poor taste. We have building cleaners but they are contract hires managed by their firm. Included in the numbers of mech would also include facility maintenance, tool and die, welders, parts washers , etc.. all of which are unionized. As far as clerical there is some not many, we also have engineers that have their own management team none of which I included in the numbers. The numbers are posted with reference to maintenance. Those management personnel are for maintenance only. Yes there are too many chiefs, but those numbers never get published. 98% of all labor negotiations, covering all unions, are ended without a strike. Management waste is unbelievable. The company moved one type engine shop, specifically the Tay 650, to another area of the building. In doing so they rendered the pits that they had spent 30 million dollars on ten years ago absolutely useless. Reason? Because they didn't not want to beef up to ten ton capacity 200 yards of crane rail, approximate cost 750,000. Yet they require a Doctors note from you if you call in sick because they are cutting back?
Ace,
What do you want me to concede? What am I suppose to give in to? That you are right? That union wages caused the airline to mismanage it money, never improve on an outdated business plan, spend 7 billion on a bankrupt airline, triple in size on the management side, that I sit outside of houses and shops and strong arm people into joining or who to vote for? That I am a shiftless good for nothing that only does what needs to be done and nothing more?
Let me make something very clear....every....and I mean every instance you have brought forward to support your position I have given clear and concise answers too, yet you have not addressed anything I have asked of you. Your answer is that I am not willing to listen to your side. Let me tell you something Ace, you sound very much like the management we have at our company, they too never really make a point or answer a question. I will ask you again?
If it is the unions fault, why is Southwest making money, as they are the highest paid and most highly unionized airline of all?
Why should I bear the financial burden of corporate mismanagement I am no more guilty of it then you are?
At what point is the CEO and CFO and COO and whoever the hell else held accountable for their past, present, and future decisions?
I am held accountable for my production every minute of the day. Contrary to what you may think I stay busy all day long, I don't take smoke breaks every five or any of that other stereotypical crap you may believe. So tell me why am I held accountable to the public also?
Why should I be called a hardliner or unreasonable because I am unwilling to throw my wages at a failing company?
Why should I not be able to control my own destiny, professionally?
Answer any three of those questions preferably the first three as those are the heart of the matter before you ask me to concede that I am unwilling to listen. Heck thats all I have done is listen so far.
