Pro-Union read this

[acehistr8]

Again this has deteriorated into "Management is always wrong and we are always right." You dont care enough to debate and thats really fine with me at this point. Can you get it through your head and re-read what I have written, because contrary to what you think, I dont blame the unions entirely. I think both parties have blame to share, whereas you flippantly refuse to believe that. Fine. Then I am done with this thread because debating involves admitting your strengths and weaknesses on both sides, since you clearly are not interested in that, then so be it.

>>If it is the unions fault, why is Southwest making money, as they are the highest paid and most highly unionized airline of all?

Again, I never said it was always the unions fault, it is a combination of terrible financial management strapped with long term deals they know they cannot meet.

>>Why should I bear the financial burden of corporate mismanagement I am no more guilty of it then you are?

Then quit. Walk. You are obviously a man of considerable experience and skill and I think you should work somehwere that is appreciated. I noticed you didnt care to respond to my post in which I derided your crying about having to take a pay cut when 400,000 people a month get laid off. Take your experience elsewhere. Oh wait, the job market is too bad, the industry is on tough times like hundreds of other industries and having benefits for your family and a retirement plan really isnt all that bad if it means giving up 25% of your pay? Right.

>>At what point is the CEO and CFO and COO and whoever the hell else held accountable for their past, present, and future decisions?

They should be, absolutely. I never said otherwise.

>>I am held accountable for my production every minute of the day. Contrary to what you may think I stay busy all day long, I don't take smoke breaks every five or any of that other stereotypical crap you may believe. So tell me why am I held accountable to the public also?

Because unions involve the public when they strike or threaten walkouts in an industry like the airlines. Walkouts or threats thereof require people to change travel plans and monitor the situation. When the unions involve me like that, then I involve you.

>>Why should I be called a hardliner or unreasonable because I am unwilling to throw my wages at a failing company?

You shouldnt. Again, quit. Vote with your feet.

>>Why should I not be able to control my own destiny, professionally?

I dont think I have ever said otherwise.


I wonder if I could get your opinion on something unrelated. Why are unions so unwilling and so threatened that they dont want new companies or organizations allowing their members to choose unionization or not? The Ventian still gets picketed by the Culinary Union in Las Vegas because the owner (Shelly Adelson) built the place with his own money and either wanted a union-free shop or wanted his workers to be able to decide for themselves. Why is it that a big union like that is so threatened that they want to take away one of the most fundamental freedoms being a worker in this country entails, the freedom of choice.

 

[Turfgrass]

DO THE MATH
I read over the weekend that United Airlines had reached an agreement with its pilots for salary reductions and work rule changes. The agreements were deemed necessary for the survival of the airline. The article mentioned that some pilots earn over $200,000 a year working nine days a month. Let?s see now, nine days a month translates into 108 days a year. That means these airline pilots are making $1,850 a day. There are 52 weeks, or 260 work days in a year. Assuming these pilots get a two-week vacation, this means their annualized salary is about $481,000. I can see why its so tough to get wage concessions from the pilots unions.

We?re hearing today that American Airlines may file bankruptcy within a few days if it fails to get concessions from its unions today. I still strongly suspect that many of these unions are actually trying to force their employers into bankruptcy. An argument can be made that these unions want the airlines to fail in hopes that some quasi-government agency similar to Amtrak will be established to handle America?s air travel infrastructure. The service would be horrid, but union jobs would certainly be safe under the government umbrella.

 

[fatdaddycool]

Ace,
Union personnel suffer some of the blame due to lethargy in the workplace but that is the same in non union environments. I cannot walk because I am a single parent and I guarantee I have been laid off or locked out more times than not. FYI, American just gave us a wage concession package that totals 30% of my pay. I cannot walk out because I am a single parent and have responsibilities. Make no mistake just because I cannot afford to leave my job does not make me wrong and the company right. They have not done me any favors. I will agree to disagree with you and that should cover it. I hope that we can still maintain a good relationship here at Jacks and that you do not take anything I said to you as offensive. Good luck to you and yours I have to go declare bankruptcy now take care.

Turf,
Pilots pay is based on flight hours not days of work. They currently get paid for 75-85 hours of flight time a month regardless of how they get it. That covers only flight time though, they don't get paid to file a flt plan, do a walkaround inspection, pre flights, arriving at least two hours prior to each flight as required and a number of other things. I have an idea why don't we get them nice and disgruntled while they are responsible for hundreds of lives a day. How many are you personally responsible for? You are once again misinformed and incorrect. Please get the FACTS before chiming in again

 

[acehistr8]

fdc, I never take anything here too personally, these forums should be about healthy debate and learning from each other, not about who hates who over what.

 

[fatdaddycool]

funny how this all worked out, the company threatened bankruptcy for months never did it got their concessions based on fear and still took care of themselves.

I stated before and will say it again, the actions of the upper level management team at AMR is the status quo for CEO's.

Unions will bear the financial burden for their improprieties and soon everyone will forget what happened and then when we go on strike sometime down the road just to "snap back" to what I made yesterday and again the big bad unions will be greedy lazy slugs.

I have to sell my house and my boat to make it and Carty gets a $43,000,000 termination package. Yea you guys were right it is the unions.

 

[Turfgrass]

SO LONG, DON CARTY
Stepped down? Yeah, we?re buying that, aren?t we? The American Airlines board of directors handed this CEO his walking papers. Too good for him. Hey, I?m all for high executive pay and bonuses ? but you just don?t ask your employees for wage and benefit concessions while you?re busy making your own retirement pay bankruptcy-proof. This is not a matter for legislation, but I do believe that equity dictates that a manager?s company pension should be no more safe from bankruptcy than the pension of those people who come in at night to empty wastebaskets and clean toilets.

 

[djv]

I believe most or maybe all know why unions came about. Greed and not by the union. True that was mostly over 50 years ago. But In some cases nothing would have changed. I worked both side of the fence so I seen good and bad.
If companies had real honest boards. Not so many buddies sitting on each others boards. Eveytime a companie came up short no bonus payed to anyone. Including the board memebers. Chit reguler pay should do the trick. Most are getting millions anyway.
As for the AA problem. Let the people who work there save it. If there not bright enough to do it. Let it die.

 

[Turfgrass]

Amen Djv

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

DJV Sounds like you have pretty sharp pop to me.

Just a note on similiar situation that was worked out the correct way. Might be before serveral heres times but before I went into business for myself In work for Chrysler Corp in Fenton Mo (both sides union and non-union during 13 year span. At the time this occurrred (Chrysler bailout) I was union. The head of Chrysler was fellow by name of Lee Iaccoca (spl). He came to our plant to ask union to make concession to avoid bankruptcy. We were all prepared before his arrival to jump down his throat,after he spoke we would have taken bigger cut than he asked.In a nutshell this was his statement that had left us feeling happy to take cut. He explained we were all in this together and if we were to pull out of the red we would all have to work together.
He said management and union would take exact same cut and and there would be NO bonuses till Chrysler was back in the black and then we would have our all normal pay reinstated. He did exactly as he said.---and his concluding statement was this. Since he was head of Chrysler he had to take responsibilty for decisions that lead to this situation and therefore he thought his cut in pay should exceed all others and said not only would he forgo any bonuses till Chrysler was back in the black but he was also reducing his base salary to $1 a year til we (as a team) showed a profit. --and the rest is history as Chrysler is not only one of few companys that ever repayed loan to gov on bailout but did it several years before schedule.