Provocation and Negotiation.

KMA

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I want to underline that I'm not in the least trying to outrage or upset anyone and I certainly don't want a tribe of spineless namecallers descending on me, it's just a "What if???"

There is a perception that the only way to deal with terrorism is to continue a policy of uncompromising non negotiation. I understand the theory, but the reality is that this policy has never worked. It's a fantasy. Why insist on a repetition of failure???

Wherever terrorism has been dealt with successfully, the policy of diplomacy, negotiation, has always been present. A significant factor in ending Sri Lanka's decades of suicide bombings was indeed negotiating with the terrorists. Possibly the most successful example of the containment of terrorism in the entire history of counter-terrorism would be the British Government's negotiations with the IRA and Sinn Fein.

Where negotiation is not present there is little control.

Military might has never proved wholly successful in this arena. That's why terrorism is utilised,it enables small groups to prove effective against a much greater power.

It's unpalatable but the fact is that most terrorist groups, despicable as their actions are, generally have a legitimate grievance. In the process of empowering and enriching their own countries, most governments have behaved (and continue to behave) appallingly with regard to their foreign policy. Short-term vision is another evil, there seems no end to hasty stop-gap measures which ensure greater problems down the line. That's why we have such a bloody mess on our hands in so many areas.

Military presence, rather than obliterating or controlling the terrorists, makes matters far worse. Again, experience ought to teach us: Brutal force as exhibited in Chechnya, the French 'war on terrorism' in Algeria, and the experience in Vietnam, all proving humiliating for the occupying powers.

Such actions only serve to swell the ranks of the terrorist cells who prey on the young, the angry, fervent and the hopelessly idealistic.

Military presence rather than obliterating the terrorist group or controlling it effectively, merely exacerbates the hostility.

This war in Iraq is unwinnable, it's unjust, as were the sanctions which went before it. The Iraqis have much to hate us for. The balance should have been redressed long, long ago. As I see it, in negotiating a truce there is nothing, at this stage, to lose and much to gain.

Why not stop fantasising and posturing and negotiate??? Recognise that the Western super-powers, to many, are seen as the supreme terrorists (I doubt if most of us were living in Iraq we would be as admiring of the western powers as we might be now) recognise that most of these terrorist groups have some legitimate grievances, sit down and negotiate. For once in history act with justice instead of avarice.

When a huge proportion of the occupying countries' populations condemn the war, Governments should start re-assessing.

It is not true that once negotiatons proceed there will be further demands, The IRA, for example, have held true to their truce for years now, even though the British government has not honored all agreements.

Serious diplomacy sometimes with the most abhorrent people is a necessary reality of modern politics. Should reasonable people, intelligent and informed people (and that includes Muslims) be convinced that the Western democracies had behaved fairly, and worked hard to negotiate fair terms, not only would the terrorist groups have lost support instead of gaining but *if* the worst had happened and the terrorists broke truce, then even I (and many others) would probably have supported war.

As Churchill pointed out, the very best consequence of Chamberlain's 'Appeasement' was that, in being seen to have exhausted all diplomatic and decent means to avoid war, the whole of England swung behind the government and the military to support what they felt was a very necessary action on such a large scale.

As we have it now, we're kicking a dog we've maltreated for a long time, what's the bet it's going to bite us good and hard?
 

Pujo21

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Not knocking your theories...but whatever their grievances are,it hardly gives them the right to murder innocent people as they have been doing.

How do you negotiate with murderers ? I don't care about freeing them, i don't care about helping them find democracy.

These middle easterners bitch and complain about Western companies on their hallowed land... yet they are in these western countries too earning all kinds of money. There is thousands of businesses in NYC alone owned by Middle Easterners who are raking in tons of money that is fomenting terrorism.

I don't think they understand nor do they care about any peaceful co-existence with westerners.

But what they do understand is murdering innocent people. Why ? Because they have a greivance ?

And specifically what is their grievance? Everyone on this planet has a greivance at one time or another !

I think the worst is yet to come. At this point in time whatever their grievance is for me... it goes out the window after they murder innocent people who had families too !

Unfortunately these idiots don't get the message because it hasn't been delivered hard enough to them. I don't think please and thank you works with these murderering thugs.

:D
 

gardenweasel

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Jan 10, 2002
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one other point is

one other point is

who exactly are you negotiating with?.....which shadowy entity are you sitting at the table with?.......

and you should stop just blaming everything on america....it`s not that simple...

Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades

Abu Nidal organization (ANO)*

Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG)*

Al Ummah

al-Gama'at al-Islamiyya

al-Jihad

al-Qaeda

Anti-Imperialist International Brigade (AIIB)

Arab Revolutionary Brigades

Arab Revolutionary Council

Armed Islamic Group (GIA)*

Fatah Revolutionary Council

HAMAS

Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM)

Hizballah

Islamic Group

Islamic Jihad (Hizballah)

Islamic Jihad (al-Jihad)

Islamic Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine

Islamic Resistance Movement

Jamaat ul-Fuqra

Jihad Group


Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK or MKO)*

Muslim Iranian Student's Society (front organization used to garner financial support)

National Council of Resistance (NCR)

Palestine Liberation Front (PLF)*

Party of God

People's Mujahidin of Iran (PMOI)

Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)*

Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC)*

Revolutionary Organization of Socialist Muslims

Revolutionary People's Liberation Party/Front (DHKP/C)*

Talaa' al-Fateh

The Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ)*

i`m being a bit facetious...but,do you negotiate with all of these and try and address each one`s individual grievances?...

it would be a great and noble pursuit......is it realistic?

and what about israel?.....do we abandon the only nation in the middle east that shares our culture and values to embrace a culture of terrorism, inhumanity, intolerance and religious zealotry(i`m talking about the radical islam that is being espoused by fundamentalists,not islam as the peaceful religion that it is purported to be)?.....

kma...don`t get me wrong...i hear you,bud....i wish it were possible...

where do we start?....how do you negotiate with people that will settle for no less than the destruction of israel?.....

and some will settle for nothing less than the death and destruction of "the west" and non-believing muslims.....

how do you deal with religious zealots and fanatics?


A world in which one entity moves forward...progressing and evolving..... and one stays mired in the past?.....and resents and hates the progressive society for their wealth and prosperity?

we are hated by the radical extremists because of what we are.....how do you change that?


why don`t you see westerners flocking to the middle east for a better life?.......like you see muslims flocking to europe and north america?....to western cultural centers....

the radical extremists hate what`s happening...they are losing their grip...their stranglehold on their own people...

we are hated by the radical extremists because of what we are.....how do you change that?

that said,if negotiation were a viable option,i`m all for it.....i`m just afraid we might be negotiating ourselves out of existence....

and what kind of precedent are you setting?.....for every nutcase or group that feels agrieved?. .....

i don`t know the answer.....i think this goes deeper than just our presence in saudi arabia or just about oil.....

this isn`t some simple civil or political disagreement......... we are in a cultural war with fanatics that hate our very existence...

enjoyed the post...i hope you are right and in some miraculous fashion we can some day negotiate and find peace with these zealots......
 
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djv

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Garden that list looks like items for sale at a garage sale. :D
 
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PRO190

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Re: Provocation and Negotiation.

KMA said:
It's unpalatable but the fact is that most terrorist groups, despicable as their actions are, generally have a legitimate grievance.

This war in Iraq is unwinnable, it's unjust, as were the sanctions which went before it. The Iraqis have much to hate us for. The balance should have been redressed long, long ago. As I see it, in negotiating a truce there is nothing, at this stage, to lose and much to gain.

As we have it now, we're kicking a dog we've maltreated for a long time, what's the bet it's going to bite us good and
hard?


1) They may have a grievance BUT when they MURDER a Pregnant woman and FOUR CHILDREN in COLD BLOOD as TERRORIST did yesterday they Lose all credibility as being civilized! Negotiating with uncivilized animals is setting yourself up for the time when they TURN on you: You may be able to sit across from these filthy pukes but most people would never be intimidated and coerced by people who condone and commit these sick atrocities!

2)Stop making unsubstantiated statements, Back them up with PROOF!

a)Sanctions UNJUST, WHY? : Proof Please!

b)Iraqis have much to hate us for : And that MUCH would be ?

c)Who is this DOG and how is it being MALTREATED: Should we call the humane society?

Get to work please, I'll be back to check on your progress..
 

homedog

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Your argument about using negotiation is legitimate in some of the cases you named but not with radical Islamic extremists.

Exactly what is their grievance? If it was as easy as "we'll stay on our side of the world and you stay on yours", I would agree with negotiation. Unfortunately it is not.

The Islamic terrorists grievance is our way of life. They despise it. Would you propose that we negotiate on this?

These people can't be negotiated with. There is no reasoning in their motives.

Thanks for your post and not trying to knock you personally, but negotiation in this case is not an option.
 

ozball

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I think a lot of the grievances that the Islamic extremists have revolve around the unblinking support of the US for Israel...allowing Israel to flout UN resolutions for 20 years+ with regards settlements, using the US veto in the UN to protect Israel repeatedly, ignoring Israel's possession of Weapons of Mass Destruction, while providing military aid in the billlions annually. The US has the power to solve the middle east situation, because Israel is so dependent on US aid....there just isn't the political will to stand up to the Israelis....

thoughts?

ozball
 

KMA

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*ROTF* Pro190, you'll be back to check my progress??? *LOL*


1- I showed how negotiations worked in Ireland. (read again if need be)


2- I did NOT show where negotiations have ever worked in the middle east, on the contrary, negotiations have FAILED in the middle east.


3- "you" miss the point. BIG surprise there!!!

4- Forget it, it's not worth it. *LOL*
 
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PRO190

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You didn't answer one question, BIG Surprise There!

Not WORTH IT b/c you can't back it up , answer the Questions:

You said the SANCTIONS were UNJUST: WHY are they unjust!

IRAQIS have MUCH to hate us for : FOR WHAT?

I didn't miss your POINT, WHO have we MALTREATED, WHO, Let's see some Names and the acts of MISTREATMENT!

Apples and Oranges,The IRA is not a RELIGIOUS EXTREMIST org.


It's your BLATANT disregard for facts to validate your Accusations that makes your statements void of validity.
 

BobbyBlueChip

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ozball said:
Hello!?!

which part of Religious and Extremist is missing????

ozball

(I'm born Irish Catholic by the way...)

. . . But it's not like they blow up innocent civilians to further their cause. (Oh shit, they do that, too)
 

Chanman

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KMA- "and I certainly don't want a tribe of spineless namecallers descending on me, it's just a "What if???" I don't think starting this thread w/that statement is going to appeal to the masses, but maybe thats where the Provacation comes in. I'd like to read some interesting and new approaches to the Terrorism problem, but from my limited experience I tend to agree w/Pujo & Pro.
ozball brings up some good points, i.e., "I think a lot of the grievances that the Islamic extremists have revolve around the unblinking support of the US for Israel." I'm not sure about this, but I am sure the US won't let Islamic Extremists dictate our Foreign Policy.
And "The US has the power to solve the middle east situation, because Israel is so dependent on US aid....there just isn't the political will to stand up to the Israelis" Probably because of the way the system works...Lobbyists.
I'm no expert on this and I'm not trying to bring up someone w/out their consent, but I'd love to hear Nolan's rationale on this subject.
Just one last thought Kim-guessing here- What do you think about the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombing? Talk to the soldiers who were there, (if you can find any), and they'll tell you that it saved many,many lives on both sides. After the occupation MacArthur's policy of appeasement worked pretty well from what I gather...they respect him to this day -or at least the last time I was there.

An exemplar: Valley was also impressed with MacArthur. "Everybody who knew MacArthur was in some way in awe of him ---- whether they liked him or not."

Valley's book looks at MacArthur's pivotal role during the occupation of Japan, and how the general worked with the Japanese to help them pave the road to becoming the economic powerhouse they are today.

"It was an incredible assignment, considering this military man was given the job to rebuild the nation and the whole structure of government," said Valley. "They were an imperial dynasty, ruled by a limited class of people. From that, they transformed into a democratic nation in five years. Incredible."

The book is structured around MacArthur's memoirs of the period, interlaced with writings from other notable Americans and Japanese, including Shigeru Yoshida, the former prime minister of Japan, as well as Valley's own comments.

Though Valley stood guard at the headquarters where MacArthur worked, he rarely saw him. Valley was one of two men chosen from his division of 20,000 to replace some of the WWII veterans who were going to serve in Korea. In 1951, President Truman pulled MacArthur out of Japan ---- a month after Valley arrived.

MacArthur left some huge changes in Japanese society in his wake. Women were emancipated, labor unions were formed, people were given freedom of speech and religion, and the economy was buoyed by dismantling the industrial monopolies.
 
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PRO190

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ozball said:
Hello!?!

which part of Religious and Extremist is missing????

ozball

(I'm born Irish Catholic by the way...)

The IRA is not based on a Protestant vs Catholic Ideal, their disfavor was based on ENGLISH POLITICAL RULE, not RELIGIOUS hatred! Therefore the statement Not RELIGIOUS EXTREMIST is valid..
 
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PRO190

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BobbyBlueChip said:
. . . But it's not like they blow up innocent civilians to further their cause. (Oh shit, they do that, too)

As for you Cowchip , I never said they were not terrorist and did not kill some innocent people, I stated they were not RELIGIOUS extremist.. that their Radical views and actions are not based on Relgion but Political control..
 

BobbyBlueChip

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PRO190 said:
As for you Cowchip , I never said they were not terrorist and did not kill some innocent people, I stated they were not RELIGIOUS extremist.. that their Radical views and actions are not based on Relgion but Political control..

You're right, pro, the fact that they are all Catholics is probably just a statistical anomaly.

Do you create these "facts" as you go?
 
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