Question about Texas/Kansas game......

Scott4USC

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Didn't OU have a boat load of playerd drafted into the NFL? On top of that, they were experienced players. OU team last year was more talented than Texas this year. I don't see how someone could argue this.

Good data on Carroll. Def. supports your argument. However, I don't think you can rate a DC soley by his team's ranking. Just like you can't judge/compare USC's defense to Ohio St. or Texas D. Different circumstances etc.

Pete Carroll was and is considered a defensive genius by the NFL. VERY VERY respected. If you think Monty Kiffin from Tampa Bay is one of the best DC's in the NFL then Carroll is right along side because he was Carroll's mentor.

What Carroll has done with this years USC D is flat out amazing.
 

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Scott4USC said:
If you think Monty Kiffin from Tampa Bay is one of the best DC's in the NFL then Carroll is right along side because he was Carroll's mentor.

Huh? Just cause someone is mentored by a "great" means they are great by association? Insane.

Dave Wandestat was mentored by Jimmy Johnson, does that mean Wandestat is equal to JJ.

Dont get me wrong I am not saying Carroll cant coach D. What I am saying is he is not a genius, he is not or never was the #1 DC in the NFL. Period.
 

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Scott4USC said:
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Didn't OU have a boat load of playerd drafted into the NFL? On top of that, they were experienced players. OU team last year was more talented than Texas this year. I don't see how someone could argue this.

I will show you how someone can argue this.

Now I know draft projections can change & they vary from site to site, but most have a consenus of having 4 players from Texas going in the 1st round, (including VY, who we suspect WONT go pro)

1. Vince Young QB
2. Michael Huff CB
3. Jonathan Scott OT
4. Rod Wright DT

Now OU had 2 1st last year the 13th & 22nd picks with Mark Clayton WR & Jammal Brown OT.

How can you say there is no question OU was more talented last year as compared to Texas this year.

In addition two coaches from the Big 12 Mangino(sp?) of Kansas & his name escapes but the HC from Mizzou have said this Texas team is the best they have ever seen in the Big 12 & that they have never seen a group of athletes that are so big, strong & fast as the group the Longhorns has right now.
 

The Judge

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Scott4USC said:
What Carroll has done with this years USC D is flat out amazing.
What is ?amazing? about giving up 19.5 points and 335 yards per game? What is amazing about allowing Hawaii to rack up 437 yards on offense or giving up 347 yards passing to Arizona State? Is it amazing that USC held a 2-8 Washington team to 24 points or a 3-7 Arizona team to three touchdowns?

Yeah, that NFL caliber, defensive "genius" has done "amazing" things at SC.
 

Scott4USC

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The Judge said:
What is ?amazing? about giving up 19.5 points and 335 yards per game? What is amazing about allowing Hawaii to rack up 437 yards on offense or giving up 347 yards passing to Arizona State? Is it amazing that USC held a 2-8 Washington team to 24 points or a 3-7 Arizona team to three touchdowns?

Yeah, that NFL caliber, defensive "genius" has done "amazing" things at SC.

:nono: :nono: :nono:

LETS LOOK AT FACTS TO MAKE YOUR POST LOOK RIDICULOUS! STUFF YOU CAN'T DISPUTE!

FACT #1

USC lost their #1 and #2 leading tacklers from defense to NFL/Graduation. USC lost 5 of the 7 leading tacklers to the NFL/Graduation.

Then before the season started, USC lost their #1 returning DT to grades and #1 DB to rape charges that were dropped but ecstasy pills were found in dorm, he was kicked out of school.

Then during the season, USC lost their #2 DB (thomas) to season ending knee surgery 2nd game of year. USC also lost their only returning starter early in season at LB (Sartz) for season to shoulder injury. USC lost their #1 nickleback (Ellison) to knee injury on the play where he made INT to win game against ASU. Make game winning play and get injured for year at the same time. :(

So for most of the season, USC has played 3 new starters at LB, 2 new starters at DB, and 2 new DT's.

USC has had to replace their 3 best LB's, #1 and #3 DB's, 3 best DT's., and #2 safety from last years defense and to injuries with this years defense.

Not impressed? Theres more!!!!!!!!!

FACT #2

Try playing 5 of your first 7 games on the road? Trying taking everyones best shot!

USC has played 4 of the current top 11 offenses in the country. 3/4 were on the road and in the 1st half the year against that young and injured defense. Lets not forget Oregon is ranked #16 total offense and they have played without their starting QB last few games. USC played against Oregon with Clemons at QB!!!!
At the time, Oregon was a top 10 total offense.

Texas has played 3 teams that average more than 30ppg while USC played 5.

Texas has played 5 teams that average below 24ppg while USC has played only 2.

Yet people are impressed with Texas defense? Why do people love to put down the USC defense? Does the USC D need to prove the country wrong again 4 years in a row? 3 straight years the country put down USC D prior to their BCS bowl games.

Still not impressed? Theres more!!!!!!!!!

FACT #3

USC has only played their starting defense for 4quarters twice this season. (@ND and @ASU) Every other game USC has blown their opponent by halftime or before the start of the 4th quarter. Carroll is well known for playing everybody even 3rd string and walk ons. So stats are def. skewed but it improves the USC depth and team morale!

USC also has given up a $HIT load of pts on special teams. I think USC is one of the worst ranked special teams units in the country. 1st half of the year it was dreadful but they have made improvements last 2 games. This completely skews the PPG given up by the defense. Just like special teams on offense can skew the ppg scored by an offense.

The worst scoring team in the PAC-10 is Washington who is matched by 4 of Texas opponents in scoring. Can USC fans imagine what Pete Carroll would do against a schedule like Texas played?

If USC D played in other conferences with Pete Carroll as DC, there is no doubt in my mind USC would be praised by the media for having a top 5 D in the country every single year for the last 4 years!

Still not impressed? I am questioning your intelligence now. But theres more!

FACT #4

USC is the #1 rated overall D in the Pac 10. #1 D in pts allowed in the Pac 10. #1 D in forcing turnovers in the Pac 10.

Remember, USC played ALL their tough games this year on the road. USC also plays Fresno St. and UCLA in the next 2 weeks. FSU very balanced team and physical. UCLA very explosive offensive team. 2 highly ranked 9-1 opponents. USC is tested and has passed with flying colors! Win these next 2 games and USC is ready for Texas.

You don't hear the media saying that do you? They are trying to sell that Texas can score on that USC D at will and keep up with USC offense. They also want you to think USC O will have trouble against that tough physical Texas D. They want you to get excited for the USC Texas matchup. They did this same $hit with OU over USC last year. I fell for it by hedging few grand on OU. :mj07: We clearly are hearing the same arguments made by the media for Texas that we heard for OU over USC last year. The same arguments.

YES, Pete Carroll has done a flat out amazing job with this USC defense! I would love to hear an argument countering that. LOVE TO HEAR ONE!

People are delusional and don't know the whole story. People often look solely at stats or bias against west coast. People are often proven wrong when they doubt USC!

CASE CLOSED!
 
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Scott4USC

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3 Seconds said:
I will show you how someone can argue this.

Now I know draft projections can change & they vary from site to site, but most have a consenus of having 4 players from Texas going in the 1st round, (including VY, who we suspect WONT go pro)

1. Vince Young QB
2. Michael Huff CB
3. Jonathan Scott OT
4. Rod Wright DT

Now OU had 2 1st last year the 13th & 22nd picks with Mark Clayton WR & Jammal Brown OT.

How can you say there is no question OU was more talented last year as compared to Texas this year.

In addition two coaches from the Big 12 Mangino(sp?) of Kansas & his name escapes but the HC from Mizzou have said this Texas team is the best they have ever seen in the Big 12 & that they have never seen a group of athletes that are so big, strong & fast as the group the Longhorns has right now.

Good data to support your opinion. You might be right. BUT compare each unit. You know both teams better than I do. Lets see what you "honestly" grade.

OU (last year) vs TEXAS (this year)

QB?
RB?
OL?
WR?
DL?
LB?
DB?
Safety?
Special Teams?

QB might be push. White was great CFB QB and Heisman winner. He is better passer than Young. Young much better runner (duh) and passing threat. I say push or slight lean to Texas. I hate to say it but Young has not been tested due to weak competition.

RB OU (Peterson)

OL push? OU was touted as having the #1 OL last year. This year USC and Texas are touted as having the #1 OL's.

WR OU (by landslide)

DL OU

LB OU

DB Texas (although they have not been tested at all on weekly basis this year, OU DB's were last year, Big 12 SUCKS BIGTIME this year)

Safety OU

Special Teams OU
 

DoMyDermBest

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This must be the thread with more legs than a millipede. Scott, why ask a question your heart or mind has already answered? Does mental masturbation feel good, or do you enjoy getting your rocks off with an audience?
 

Scott4USC

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DoMyDermBest said:
This must be the thread with more legs than a millipede. Scott, why ask a question your heart or mind has already answered? Does mental masturbation feel good, or do you enjoy getting your rocks off with an audience?

I enjoy debating and learning everything I can about the 2 teams. This is what intelligent people do. I have to make the best decision for myself on this game. Right now I am convinced USC will win but I am looking for an arguments supporting Texas. Last year I hedged small with OU because I was convinced they had legit shot at winning. I loved USC over OU and did extensive write-up why USC would win. But I was not 100% sure.

I am trying to make the best "educated guess" possible how this game plays out. I already did most of my capping (as you can see in my arguments) but there is a lot more for me to learn and know. Plus each team has 2 more games left that easily could change opinions.

This thread should be valuable resource to anybody who looking to wager on this game or on these teams the next 3 weeks in regular season. You can learn a lot by reading and debating. If you don't like reading or debating, just don't take part! To debate me you better have ammo to support your opinion because you will be challenged!

I might not convince a Longhorn fan his team will lose by double digits to USC, but I might change his opinion about USC. And vice versa. That is important for me to see if I can be sold on Texas. I also will be watching Texas very closely the next 2 weeks.
 
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The Judge

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Scott4USC said:
YES, Pete Carroll has done a flat out amazing job with this USC defense!
Not this year he hasn't and no amount hyperventilating on your part will change the fact that USC's defense has struggled at times this season against comparatively weak competition.
Scott4USC said:
If USC D played in other conferences with Pete Carroll as DC, there is no doubt in my mind USC would be praised by the media for having a top 5 D in the country every single year for the last 4 years!
Who's delusional now?
Scott4USC said:
I am questioning your intelligence now.
If that makes you feel better about yourself, go right ahead but I assure you that it is a waste of your time.
The Judge said:
What is ?amazing? about giving up 19.5 points and 335 yards per game? What is amazing about allowing Hawaii to rack up 437 yards on offense or giving up 347 yards passing to Arizona State? Is it amazing that USC held a 2-8 Washington team to 24 points or a 3-7 Arizona team to three touchdowns?

Yeah, that NFL caliber, defensive "genius" has done "amazing" things at SC.
By the way, you failed to address a single one of the questions I posed.
 
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Scott4USC

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The Judge said:
Not this year he hasn't and no amount hyperventilating on your part will change the fact that USC's defense has struggled at times this season against comparatively weak competition.

Of course USC D struggled at times this season. NOBODY expected USC to dominate on defense. Look at the high level Carroll has his defense playing now? It is amazing. Go through all my facts and you will clearly see the odds were stacked up against Carroll and his defense.


You implied I am delusional to think USC would have better stats playing in the Big 10, Big 12, or SEC? USC would have worse stats on defense?


The Judge said:
By the way, you failed to address a single one of the questions I posed.

Well I focused on WHY I feel Carroll has done an amazing job on the defensive side of the ball. It also would explain why USC might have struggled in the 1h of the season.

But if you want to focus on specifics, here is something you should take a look at. You will be VERY impressed.

@Oregon, USC was down 13-10 at half, extremely hostile environment, Oregon had one of the top offenses in the country, USC shut them out in the 3rd quarter and shut them out in the 4th quarter!

@Arizona St. the following week (back to back road games), sold out and almost 100 degree weather on the field, USC was down 21-3 at half, USC shut out ASU in the 3q and gave up only 7pts in the 4th quarter. ASU at the time had one of the best offenses in the country.

@ND, rivalry game, ND 2 weeks to prepare for USC, EXTREMELY HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT, USC was down 21-14 at half, despite being on the field most of 1h, USC shut out ND in the 3rd quarter! USC gave up 10pts in the 4th.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

That is all you need to know. There were not too many (if any) offenses that are better than those 3 teams lead by 3 exceptional QB's. Oregon and ASU QB's are now out for season but USC faced both starters and on the road! Very important you realize and distinguish between home and away games.


Ok so you want me to focus on USC giving up 19.5 points and 335 yards per game? Well I explained USC issues on D all year. You should figure it out.

You want me to focus on giving up 437 yards to Hawaii?

For starters, USC did not recieve the ball on offense in that game until 1min. left in the 1q. USC scored TD off INT and USC D was on field for over 10min straight. Hawaii plays quick strike gimmick offense. Ball control offense. It moves the ball from 20 to 20 but doesn't result in TD's.

USC lead 17-3 despite only getting getting 1 offensive possion in 1q with only 1min. left. USC won the game 63-17 and Hawaii only scored 10pts against starting D of USC. Remember, ND had an 18min. time of possession advanatage over USC. Surprised no USC players dropped dead. :mj07:

You want me to talk about giving up 347 yards passing to Arizona State? GIVE CREDIT TO ASU!

ASU had 560 total yards against LSU defense.
ASU had 415 total yards against USC defense.

ASU had 461 yards passing against LSU defense.
ASU had 347 yards passing against USC defense.

ASU had 99 yards rushing against LSU defense.
ASU had 68 yards rushing against USC defense.


LSU is ranked statistically #9 in the country in total defense. One of the top defenses in the SEC. Yet people praise defenses in SEC, Big 12, Big 10, but USC defense gets slammed based on stats? GIVE ME A FAWKING BREAK!

:mj07: :mj07: :mj07:


You want me to explain why USC held a 2-8 Washington team to 24 points?

USC had 37-17 lead @UW at halftime. Washington was SHUT OUT in 3q and the defense SHUT OUT UW in 4th quarter as well. UW scored 7pts off USC INT thrown by USC's 2nd string QB.

You want me to explain why 3-7 Arizona team scored three touchdowns?

USC had 724 yards total offense, Arizona had 245 yards total offense. If I remember correctly, USC had 2 turnovers in that game that helped Arizona a lot. Arizona was 1-9 on 3rd downs. Arizona did score 14pts in the 3q against USC. But I just looked it up and ASU scored one on a 3play drive lead by a 42 yard TD reception. The 2nd TD was off a 22 yard drive. So I guess USC turned the ball over on their own 22 or special teams gave Arizona great field position. Arizona was shut out in the 4th quarter. So that sums that up.

ANY QUESTIONS? :)
 
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The Judge

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Scott4USC said:
You implied I am delusional to think USC would have better stats playing in the Big 10, Big 12, or SEC? USC would have worse stats on defense?
That is not what you said. You didn?t say that USC would have ?better? stats playing in the other conferences, you said that USC would have been ?praised by the media for having a top 5 D in the country every single year for the last 4 years!? That IS delusional.

You said:
Scott4USC said:
What Carroll has done with this years USC D is flat out amazing.
I responded that for the reasons I gave, he can not be considered to have done ?amazing? things with the Trojan defense this year. You in turn, supplied EXCUSES for the games that I referred to. Simply "AMAZING"!

The most frustrating thing about any ?debate? with you Scooter, is the fact that you don know the meaning of the word. What you do is argue. There is a significant difference and I grow weary of your idea of "debate" every time I try to have any kind of dialogue with you.

See you in Pasadena.
 
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Scott4USC

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The Judge said:
That is not what you said. You didn?t say that USC would have ?better? stats playing in the other conferences, you said that USC would have been ?praised by the media for having a top 5 D in the country every single year for the last 4 years!? That IS delusional.

LSU has the #9 rated defense in the country. Most people in the media claim LSU having a top 5 D in the country. Most say LSU has one of the top D's in the SEC. In OOC play LSU played @ASU, North Texas :rolleyes:, and Appalachian St. :rolleyes:

Safe to say APPY ST. and UNT are easy stat padders. But the media and nation don't realize that. But we do have LSU @ASU to look at. :scared

Remember, LSU is considered a top 5 D in the country, and USC weakness is supposed to be their defense. RIGHT? THis is what posters at MJ's are saying and the media as well. All documented.


ASU had 560 total yards against LSU defense.
ASU had 415 total yards against USC defense.

ASU had 461 yards passing against LSU defense.
ASU had 347 yards passing against USC defense.

ASU had 99 yards rushing against LSU defense.
ASU had 68 yards rushing against USC defense.


LSU strength is their defense and USC's weakness is their defense. That is what the media and posters here would say. Right? :mj07:

It gets better. USC D that played @ASU is not the same USC D now. USC is so much healthier and more experienced. The DB #18 Walker who has been burned every game no long starting. Moves like that have helped dramatically. But even with USC D suffering injuries and being young, they still did better job than LSU. If you look at the game closer, LSU scored only 21pts offensively against USC defense.

YOU call me delusional when I say USC would be considered a defensive powerhouse if they played in the Big12, Big10 and SEC? GIVE ME A FAWKING BREAK!

If Texas was playing LSU, people would say, HOW WILL TEXAS OFFENSE SCORE ON THAT TOUGH LSU DEFENSE? THAT IS A TOUGH PHYSICAL SEC STYLE DEFENSE! CAN VINCE YOUNG EXCEL FACING THAT SPEEDY DEFENSE? WHAT A GREAT DEFENSIVE MATCHUP TEXAS D VS LSU D!

:142lmao:

:mj07: :mj07: :mj07:

:142lmao:

USC played @Hawai, @ND, Arkansas (SEC) and will be playing Fresno St. in OOC. That isn't exactly Appy St. and North Texas quality. Right? Should we go down the list of OOC schools the Big 12 and SEC play that they rack up wins and stats against?

This is too easy for me to debate. Need more examples? Instead, you prob. will reply saying I don't know how to debate! :)
 
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The Judge

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Scott4USC said:
USC D that played @ASU is not the same USC D now. USC is so much healthier and more experienced. The DB #18 Walker who has been burned every game no long starting. Moves like that have helped dramatically. But even with USC D suffering injuries and being young, they still did better job than LSU.
I find your choice of the LSU/ASU game to compare with the one played by USC, entirely too predictable in light of your propensity to spin information in favor of the Trojans. If one were to apply the same distorted logic to LSU, I think that it is safe to assume that their defense today is certainly not the same one that had to play their ?home? opener at ASU the weekend following the worst natural disaster in America?s history. To discount the effect that Katrina had on the LSU players that week is unfair to them. Many had still not heard from missing friends and family at kickoff and their travel plans for the game were made at the last minute.

It is easy to select individual comparisons to ?prove? one?s point such as the fact that an undefeated USC team allowed cellar dwelling Washington to score 24 points when their season average is only 21 points per game. For a team like USC that is so obviously superior to its all of conference competition, to allow that same competition to average over 20 points per game is nothing short of disgraceful. In comparison, the following are the average scores allowed in conference play by the leaders in the other four BCS conferences:

Miami (ACC) ? 14.5 points per game
West Virginia (Big East) - 17.0 points per game
Penn State (Big 10) ? 17.0 points per game
Texas (Big 12) ? 15.4 points per game
Alabama (SEC) ? 8.4 points per game

I am curious to know how you think USC's defense ranks compared to their conference leading counterparts. Could USC's defense hold their conference opponents to 14.5 points per game if they played in the ACC. How about 8.4 points per game if the Trojans were in the SEC?

Scott4USC said:
If you look at the game closer, LSU scored only 21pts offensively against USC defense.
How you came up with this comparison or what it is supposed to mean, I will never understand.
 
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Scott4USC

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The Judge said:
to allow that same competition to average over 20 points per game is nothing short of disgraceful. In comparison, the following are the average scores allowed in conference play by the leaders in the other four BCS conferences:

Are you factoring USC playing their starters much less frequently than most teams in the country? Some teams don't blow out their opponents with high powered offense and therefore play their starters for most if not all the game. Very important criteria when comparing teams than just STATS!

an undefeated USC team allowed cellar dwelling Washington to score 24 points when their season average is only 21 points per game.

You are right USC allowed 24pts to Washington. Howerver, USC defense only allowed 14pts. 3pts came from special teams (92 yard opening return) and 7pts came from INT FOR TD from USC 2nd string QB in 4th quarter.




Miami (ACC) ? 14.5 points per game
West Virginia (Big East) - 17.0 points per game
Penn State (Big 10) ? 17.0 points per game
Texas (Big 12) ? 15.4 points per game
Alabama (SEC) ? 8.4 points per game

:mj03: :mj03: :mj03:

I am impressed with Miami D. I think they are #1 in the country.

WVU DEFENSE? WHY YOU IMPRESSED WITH THEM?

at Syracuse
Wofford
at Maryland
East Carolina
Virginia Tech
at Rutgers
Louisville
Connecticut
at Cincinnati

Penn St. defense?

Look at PSU's OOC schedule. Add that along with the Big 10 schedule. Case Closed on their GREAT D and USC's weakness on D


South Florida
Cincinnati
Central Michigan

ALL HOME GAMES TOO! Penn St. has played 5 of their first 6 games at home this season. USC played 5 of their first 7 games on the road!

Texas?

What great offenses did Texas play?


La Lafayette
at Ohio State
Rice
at Missouri
Oklahoma
No. 24 Colorado
Texas Tech
at Oklahoma State
at Baylor
Kansas

Texas only played 2 road games from their first 7!

Alabama?

What great offenses did Alabama face? See their OOC?


Middle Tenn. St.
Southern Miss
at South Carolina
Arkansas
Florida
at Mississippi
Tennessee
Utah State
at Mississippi St. CBS
LSU

Alabama played 6 home games out of their first 8 games of the season! :scared

STAT BOY! You Still impressed by those ppg allowed by the following teams YOU MENTIONED!


:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Look closer at the situation and you won't be nearly as impressed as you were. Facts don't lie. These teams do not play high powered offenses and played a ton of home games vs the road. We all know how much better teams play at home vs the road. Often these teams play competition that are only there to build your team stats. For example directional schools. Thos stats from those games carry the same weight as USC stats against @ND, @HAWAII, @ASU, @OREGON, @WASHINGTON, @CAL, Arkansas, Arizona, Washington St., Stanford, Fresno St., and UCLA!


How you came up with this comparison or what it is supposed to mean, I will never understand.

I had typo. I meant to say USC defense only allowed 21 offensive pts to Arizona St. :clap:
 
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