Kosar - forgive my fuzzy message. No, those folks have nothing to do with the war in Iraq. But examples such as the career welfare recipients, the proliferation of illegal immigrants at a stupifying cost to taxpayers - things like this are indicators of what has happened to our society. Everything is now planned for political correctness and little else. If you are against illegal immigrants you are termed a racist. If you didn't like the Supreme Court ruling you must be a homophobe. Where does reason fit in this equation? What is happening in Iraq is inexcusable because we have seen the result of trying to win a war with "one hand tied behind our back" before - and it wasn't good. The soldiers in Iraq might as well go around with targets painted on their uniforms. God forbid one of these fighters makes an error and there are "civilian casualties." We are letting the political correctness fear put these troops in harm. By trying to appease everybody and offend no one, you will simply end up being used and abused.
Rumsfeld A Idiot
- Thread starter djv
- Start date
Our soldiers go around with targets on there back. God forbid one of our guys makes error. You got that right. Might even get court marshalled. Ferdville it would not surprise me. And this 5 year plan. Total BS.
ferdville quote: " What is happening in Iraq is inexcusable because we have seen the result of trying to win a war with "one hand tied behind our back" before - and it wasn't good. The soldiers in Iraq might as well go around with targets painted on their uniforms. God forbid one of these fighters makes an error and there are "civilian casualties." We are letting the political correctness fear put these troops in harm. By trying to appease everybody and offend no one, you will simply end up being used and abused."
i agree with you 100%. every move that is made in iraq is under scrutiny. the naysayers are ready to pounce on anything they can, just to say i told you so. again i will say it's time for the u.s. to take off the gloves.i get angry every time i hear about soldiers getting killed in iraq, but again i will say that these type of problems happened in every country that was changed to democracy (germany,japan,france) in post ww2.
tonight i heard a retired army colonel, with connections with the present military, say that the quick end of the war caught all of the post war planners by surprise.they weren't ready to implement their plan. i think that is total bullshit. i was never in the military, but i imagine it is similar to business. you prepare yourself for all possibilities. in other words, you are ready for anything.
kosar,
i may be an optimist but i think a democracv can happen in iraq. i think that the majority of the iraqi's want it. these attacks are engineered by former saddam loyalists who were in the military & police force & being backed by both syria & iran. we must send in more troops & start threatening syria & iran by putting some of our soldiers on the syrian & iranian borders.
i agree with you 100%. every move that is made in iraq is under scrutiny. the naysayers are ready to pounce on anything they can, just to say i told you so. again i will say it's time for the u.s. to take off the gloves.i get angry every time i hear about soldiers getting killed in iraq, but again i will say that these type of problems happened in every country that was changed to democracy (germany,japan,france) in post ww2.
tonight i heard a retired army colonel, with connections with the present military, say that the quick end of the war caught all of the post war planners by surprise.they weren't ready to implement their plan. i think that is total bullshit. i was never in the military, but i imagine it is similar to business. you prepare yourself for all possibilities. in other words, you are ready for anything.
kosar,
i may be an optimist but i think a democracv can happen in iraq. i think that the majority of the iraqi's want it. these attacks are engineered by former saddam loyalists who were in the military & police force & being backed by both syria & iran. we must send in more troops & start threatening syria & iran by putting some of our soldiers on the syrian & iranian borders.
djv said:
No one knows what is really going on over there ..
Mebbe Bush is arranging for some chemical weapons and nukes to be sent to Iraq so they can be conveniently found there ..
amazing that so many people can disappear .. and so can all those so called weapons and stuff .. .
mebbe he will discover it by chance before the elections :shrug:
but ya .. soldiers getting a raw deal for sure .. . feel sorry for them .. u hit the nail on the head djv . . similar to vietnam .. poor boys were not prepared . .. in this case their hands are tied ..
spock,
i'm sorry to hear that you belive bush will do something underhanded like you suggest.
i guess you rather believe that the president of the u.s. is capable of misleading everyone , than believing a mass murderer like saddam incapable of having wmd.
i'm sorry to hear that you belive bush will do something underhanded like you suggest.
i guess you rather believe that the president of the u.s. is capable of misleading everyone , than believing a mass murderer like saddam incapable of having wmd.
Ari
dont believe he will do it .. shud not be done at that position and would be hard to do anyways ..
my point is that all we speak of is what we hear from the media ..
Sorry if I did not put that out clearly .. the example was just to get my point across ..
politics is so twisted .. . i think north korea is more dangerous than saddam hussein . . but nothing is being done against north korea .. wonder why ..
only thing i believe in is that this was NOT ONLY for dis-armament of mass weapons of destruction .. . my opinion.
Cheers !!!
Spock
dont believe he will do it .. shud not be done at that position and would be hard to do anyways ..
my point is that all we speak of is what we hear from the media ..
Sorry if I did not put that out clearly .. the example was just to get my point across ..
politics is so twisted .. . i think north korea is more dangerous than saddam hussein . . but nothing is being done against north korea .. wonder why ..
only thing i believe in is that this was NOT ONLY for dis-armament of mass weapons of destruction .. . my opinion.
Cheers !!!
Spock
spock,
thanks for clearing up your post.
"only thing i believe in is that this was NOT ONLY for dis-armament of mass weapons of destruction .. . my opinion."
i completely agree with you. what is happening in the middle east is one example.
thanks for clearing up your post.
"only thing i believe in is that this was NOT ONLY for dis-armament of mass weapons of destruction .. . my opinion."
i completely agree with you. what is happening in the middle east is one example.
I was thinking about what I wrote the other night. I watched Elenor Clift, the liberal writer for the Times or Newsweek, I think. She was complaining about how the United States Military is not able to rebuild the infrastucture, policing,etc.
As far as I have heard, the military is not trained to be a Social Services Organization.The PC left has this mind set that after they fight they should babysit, direct traffic, and empty garbage. In the next breath, the libs complain that the military is getting picked off by snipers. Now if the Army and Marines did what I assume they are trained to do, they would have simply killed all the bad guys, and be damned with collateral damage. What do you think would have been the result of WWII if one of our main concerns was collateral damage? Dresdin? Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Yes, the military did move in and take care so that the conquered country could rebuild their own. Iraq has the potential to tear this country apart if we don't take some action to close it. If not, we should just get out of there (the lesser choice). Is this due in some part to poor planning on the part of Bush & Co.? Yes, in my opinion. But with today's political climate being what it is, it just magnifies the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
Well at least today is National AIDS testing day.
As far as I have heard, the military is not trained to be a Social Services Organization.The PC left has this mind set that after they fight they should babysit, direct traffic, and empty garbage. In the next breath, the libs complain that the military is getting picked off by snipers. Now if the Army and Marines did what I assume they are trained to do, they would have simply killed all the bad guys, and be damned with collateral damage. What do you think would have been the result of WWII if one of our main concerns was collateral damage? Dresdin? Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Yes, the military did move in and take care so that the conquered country could rebuild their own. Iraq has the potential to tear this country apart if we don't take some action to close it. If not, we should just get out of there (the lesser choice). Is this due in some part to poor planning on the part of Bush & Co.? Yes, in my opinion. But with today's political climate being what it is, it just magnifies the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
Well at least today is National AIDS testing day.
Ferdville your post is so off base it is mind boggeling. You seem to be saying that the problems we are having in Iraq is somehow the fault of the liberal left wing.
Everybody knew the the "War" part would be the easy part. It was assumed everybody knew the aftermath was going to be the hard part. Some of us who tried to point this out while the hawks where high fiving each other every time the TV showed a bomb that dropped or tank that took out a pick-up truck, were called every name in the book.
Bush and Rummy and Cheney knew this was not going to be a cake walk after the bombs stopped flying.
This is the part of the war that the Right didn't want to talk about. The fact that it is happening now is not the fault of the Left.
If you wanna talk about PC how about how is was so un-PC to be against the war!
Everybody knew the the "War" part would be the easy part. It was assumed everybody knew the aftermath was going to be the hard part. Some of us who tried to point this out while the hawks where high fiving each other every time the TV showed a bomb that dropped or tank that took out a pick-up truck, were called every name in the book.
Bush and Rummy and Cheney knew this was not going to be a cake walk after the bombs stopped flying.
This is the part of the war that the Right didn't want to talk about. The fact that it is happening now is not the fault of the Left.
If you wanna talk about PC how about how is was so un-PC to be against the war!
As usual Stevie D, you are looking at the world through rose-colored glasses. If you reread my post carefully, I imagine you could ascertain that I was talking about a quote from a liberal writer that suggested that our soldiers in Iraq should basically be responsible for fixing all the societal ills of the country in addition to re-building Iraq in a safe and swift fashion. My comment was that I didn't believe our military's primary purpose was social services and the writer was out of line. Perhaps I should have omitted her political point of view as it didn't add much to my thesis - so I am guilty of that.
My second point was that fighting a war without the possibility of collateral damage was a recipe for failure. I don't think you will find any references or even intimations that this was the fault of the liberal left. In fact, my comment "damned if you do, damned if you don't" would indicate that there are problems on both ends. How you could believe this was "off-base" sounds like a little kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
But since YOU brought it up, and suggested somehow, however "mind boggling" (note correct spelling) that I did attack the left, let me do so just to amuse you. Just so you can feel justified in railing against reason and making a specious accusation, here goes. Find me one quote from a democrat that would indicate collateral damage as acceptable in Iraq. After trying for hours to find one, you will come up empty. The whole problem is the soldiers are not allowed to do what they need to do - maybe an "innocent" citizen or two might sustain injuries or death. Why do you think our guys are sitting ducks right now? Nearly all the complaints about the injuries and deaths to civilians as well as damage to property come from the liberal side of the mouth. The mistake Bush made is not finishing what he started - and that is why we are in this mess now. In fact, let me make it easier for you - find me one quote from any of the nine presential hopefuls that would indicate anything to the effect that "collateral damage" is a normal result of war, however distasteful that might be. Once the decision to invade Iraq was made, this should have been a given. You are merely refusing to look at the situation as it exists. As most liberals, you prefer to look at things they way you "wished" they were or, in some cases, how things "should" be, all the while refusing to accept the reality of the situation.
I will be the first to admit that in my opinion (as Monday morning QB) the Iraq problem was handled poorly and probably should have been dealt with in a different manner. But it wasn't; here we are and what are we going to do about it? It is not possible to fight a war of any kind without sustaining collateral damage. Well, actually it is possible. It happened in Viet Nam to some extent and we know what resulted there. You guys on the left need to lighten up a little and stop looking at everything everybody says as an attack. If you reread my original post, I think you will see that if indeed it was an "attack", it was a "balanced" attack because of my just criticism of W.
Ok - now Dr. Freeze and the rest of the vast right wing conspiracy group, please "attack" my negative comments about "W" so that Democrats. liberals, socialists, communists and even many rational sound thinking human beings feel better.
My second point was that fighting a war without the possibility of collateral damage was a recipe for failure. I don't think you will find any references or even intimations that this was the fault of the liberal left. In fact, my comment "damned if you do, damned if you don't" would indicate that there are problems on both ends. How you could believe this was "off-base" sounds like a little kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
But since YOU brought it up, and suggested somehow, however "mind boggling" (note correct spelling) that I did attack the left, let me do so just to amuse you. Just so you can feel justified in railing against reason and making a specious accusation, here goes. Find me one quote from a democrat that would indicate collateral damage as acceptable in Iraq. After trying for hours to find one, you will come up empty. The whole problem is the soldiers are not allowed to do what they need to do - maybe an "innocent" citizen or two might sustain injuries or death. Why do you think our guys are sitting ducks right now? Nearly all the complaints about the injuries and deaths to civilians as well as damage to property come from the liberal side of the mouth. The mistake Bush made is not finishing what he started - and that is why we are in this mess now. In fact, let me make it easier for you - find me one quote from any of the nine presential hopefuls that would indicate anything to the effect that "collateral damage" is a normal result of war, however distasteful that might be. Once the decision to invade Iraq was made, this should have been a given. You are merely refusing to look at the situation as it exists. As most liberals, you prefer to look at things they way you "wished" they were or, in some cases, how things "should" be, all the while refusing to accept the reality of the situation.
I will be the first to admit that in my opinion (as Monday morning QB) the Iraq problem was handled poorly and probably should have been dealt with in a different manner. But it wasn't; here we are and what are we going to do about it? It is not possible to fight a war of any kind without sustaining collateral damage. Well, actually it is possible. It happened in Viet Nam to some extent and we know what resulted there. You guys on the left need to lighten up a little and stop looking at everything everybody says as an attack. If you reread my original post, I think you will see that if indeed it was an "attack", it was a "balanced" attack because of my just criticism of W.
Ok - now Dr. Freeze and the rest of the vast right wing conspiracy group, please "attack" my negative comments about "W" so that Democrats. liberals, socialists, communists and even many rational sound thinking human beings feel better.
Ferdville, thank you for correcting my spelling. I am a terrible speller. Have been my whole life. I always said if they had computers with spell checkers when I went to college I would be a big shot today.
I am sure that you will not find a quote from any liberal candidate saying these killings of our soldiers is justified and a natural reaction to our being in Iraq in the first place. But to be fair I don't exactly hear Dubya and Rummy saying it either.
I am sure that you will not find a quote from any liberal candidate saying these killings of our soldiers is justified and a natural reaction to our being in Iraq in the first place. But to be fair I don't exactly hear Dubya and Rummy saying it either.
I believe the most important thing us Americans can make sure WDC understands. We dont need to have our soldiers part of any 5 year plan. Get it cleaned up and done with fast. They say there is a majority of Iraqis that want a nice peaceful country that is Democatic. Good if were so dead sure this majority is there.Then turn the country over to them fast. After all remember we went there to be liberatoris not occupiers. But here again the story changes dailey. Only reason I guess that happens because there is no plan. But do make sure those oil well work. Our Soldiers deserve better. We were to have learned a lesson between 63 and 73. I hope someone remembers in DC soon.
This entire thread can be summed up in one statement AR182 had that hit the nail on the head.
"all of these extremists think that americans don't have the stomach to watch our fellow countrymen die in war like situations. mogadishu was a perfect example of this"
Samolia was another example. These extremist look at history and see how past administrations turned and ran at 1st public discontent.---and they count on the weak to whine and say oh my we have military getting hurt. Folks I don't like our soilders getting hurt any more than anyone---but would you all look up definition of soilder in your spare time. It is not a military desk job.
It will take a while to gain respect from these extremist after seeing past admistration let them drag our forces thru the street and burn them and pull out with tail tucked.
While there are tons of questions in these threads there are few
solutions. I will give my solution that would gaurantee a 75% reduction in suicide bombing.Since the only allegiance these radicals have is to their fanatic religious beliefs and their familys my recommendation would be.
Every time they identify a suicide bomber that results in deaths,hang his entire immediate family in public view.
Grissely but effective.
In addition it would make these killings for money obsolete as there is no one to collect it.
The ONLY way to fight terror is with greater terror.
"all of these extremists think that americans don't have the stomach to watch our fellow countrymen die in war like situations. mogadishu was a perfect example of this"
Samolia was another example. These extremist look at history and see how past administrations turned and ran at 1st public discontent.---and they count on the weak to whine and say oh my we have military getting hurt. Folks I don't like our soilders getting hurt any more than anyone---but would you all look up definition of soilder in your spare time. It is not a military desk job.
It will take a while to gain respect from these extremist after seeing past admistration let them drag our forces thru the street and burn them and pull out with tail tucked.
While there are tons of questions in these threads there are few
solutions. I will give my solution that would gaurantee a 75% reduction in suicide bombing.Since the only allegiance these radicals have is to their fanatic religious beliefs and their familys my recommendation would be.
Every time they identify a suicide bomber that results in deaths,hang his entire immediate family in public view.
Grissely but effective.
In addition it would make these killings for money obsolete as there is no one to collect it.
The ONLY way to fight terror is with greater terror.
DTB, the fact that our enemies decide to use guerilla war tactics is not the fault of the whinning liberals or other American who do not have the stomach for war. Guerilla warfare is a weakness of the American Army. It is a strategy taken by our enemies to even the battelfield. Our million dollar bombs are rendered useless against this type of fighting. They hide among the people we liberated and pick us off one at a time. We cannot go in and blow up the people we liberated now can we?
The fact is Boy George and Rummy and Cheney knew all of this, they knew it would take years but they didn't exactly make that clear because it isn't as sexy as "Shock and Awe."
The fact is Boy George and Rummy and Cheney knew all of this, they knew it would take years but they didn't exactly make that clear because it isn't as sexy as "Shock and Awe."
You guys crack me up. Everyday you solve the worlds problems on a website dedicated to gambling. You talk about the how concerned you are for the soldiers over there, but I am willing to bet not one (well maybe 1) has never done a dam thing for any veteran. And buying trash backs from the american legion is not donating to your vets. How many of you have actually ever attended a dam veterans day parade and paid your respects to those who have served, visited Arlington cemetary and seen the endless sea of white cross's. Just walked up to a veteran and shaked his or her hand and thank them for their service. It's not so hard to do. We don't bite, in fact we may even be shocked since most seem to be forgotten. You can talk politics all you want but instead of talking about caring for soldiers why don't you put words into action.
As far as Iraq goes time will tell. These people deserved better. Like I said in a post before the looks on the Iraqi's faces when we pulled out in desert weekend will be an image that I will never forget the rest of my life. When communism fell in Eastern europe nearly 15 years ago, those people revolted for democracy. Has it been a cake walk for these countries. I don't think so. Many die everyday from starvation and many more are homeless or jobless and thier economies are in shambles. But do you think they want to go back to what they had before. The word democracy alone brings hope to those who have never been free to say what they want and speak thier minds without ramifications. To have hope means more to some then most here will ever know.
Do you think the people of Iraq would trade back everything for saddaam, I don't think so. Change takes time. Not everyone can be pleased at all times. You all have the answers but have no clue what the world is like outside your big screen tv's and computer screens. So next time your bitching because your cable or satellite went out and you missed the score, remember some people would just like a loaf of bread so they can feed thier family for one more week.
As far as Iraq goes time will tell. These people deserved better. Like I said in a post before the looks on the Iraqi's faces when we pulled out in desert weekend will be an image that I will never forget the rest of my life. When communism fell in Eastern europe nearly 15 years ago, those people revolted for democracy. Has it been a cake walk for these countries. I don't think so. Many die everyday from starvation and many more are homeless or jobless and thier economies are in shambles. But do you think they want to go back to what they had before. The word democracy alone brings hope to those who have never been free to say what they want and speak thier minds without ramifications. To have hope means more to some then most here will ever know.
Do you think the people of Iraq would trade back everything for saddaam, I don't think so. Change takes time. Not everyone can be pleased at all times. You all have the answers but have no clue what the world is like outside your big screen tv's and computer screens. So next time your bitching because your cable or satellite went out and you missed the score, remember some people would just like a loaf of bread so they can feed thier family for one more week.
Neverteaseit. Wow so you served big time. So did many of us here and dont take back seats to nobody. And since I have two family members who are also Vets. Since I lost my frist cousin and another two great friends in Nam. I also vote every election so will say what ever I dam please. So you want to talk about homeless folks, and those who go hungry. You forget to mention those few million right here in our great country. Worry about here before you cry to much for any other place. As for our soldiers. There the best and our taught and believe in offense. This sitting around being policeman with no plan to handle the outcome sucks. We stayed 3to 7 yeasr to long in Nam. I can only hope that were not stupid enough to stay here more then another 6 months. Hell the so called war has been declared over now for almost two months. Maybe some folks had chit for brains or dam bad information. But we/us the tax payers should get some streight answers. Not the constant spin.
So I served is no big deal that is not my point, but everyday you and others do nothing but bitch about our dam government, like it is you personally that is being treated unfairly. So what you pay taxes last time I checked most americans do and you vote, well great you can punch a ballot. I forgot most here are experts in foriegn politics, the economy and warfare. Yea you have a right to voice your opinion b.s. But why not instead of bitching do something about it. I know it may take you away from the comfort of your lazy boy and it takes some effort but the same ole song and dance is getting old. If its not a republican its a democrat or a liberal whatever it does not matter. As far as the homeless here in America I'm sure you all can solve that in a few chat sessions.
Vote is the key. If the ones we got cant get it done or you dont like there ideas. Pull other lever bunch other button what ever. And as long as there are those that bitch and scream one way. There should always be those that scream and bitch the other.
Saw a documentary last night on discovery channel,I believe the name of it was 21st century soilder. If you get a chance watch it.
Its about war in Afganistan and some of modern equipment we used. Sheds a perspective that may open some eyes.
Stevie will have to say you are correct on guerilla tactics as anything else would be suicide. The follow up is rougher than actual war especially in light of how quick they were ended.
Would agree with you that more advance planning needs to be done on aftermath.
If you read news in other countrys you will see continuous etrocities being carried out in ever country these Islam fanatic exit,except China who does counter terror with greater terror.
There will come a time that we have to stop them for our own safety and I think Bush.s attitude is exactly what is called for at present. While it is no secret there are many residing in U.S. in wait--but we have not seen any more terrorists strikes YET. I can only think they maybe they have considered that they take 2 buildings and we take 2 counties in retaliation is not a swap they are willing to encounter again.
Its about war in Afganistan and some of modern equipment we used. Sheds a perspective that may open some eyes.
Stevie will have to say you are correct on guerilla tactics as anything else would be suicide. The follow up is rougher than actual war especially in light of how quick they were ended.
Would agree with you that more advance planning needs to be done on aftermath.
If you read news in other countrys you will see continuous etrocities being carried out in ever country these Islam fanatic exit,except China who does counter terror with greater terror.
There will come a time that we have to stop them for our own safety and I think Bush.s attitude is exactly what is called for at present. While it is no secret there are many residing in U.S. in wait--but we have not seen any more terrorists strikes YET. I can only think they maybe they have considered that they take 2 buildings and we take 2 counties in retaliation is not a swap they are willing to encounter again.
