the u.s. middle class is being wiped out

Terryray

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Such fuking nonsense but what can u expect from a guy who calls the Davis Bacon act racist and lives in the biggest brainwashing anti union state in the union. I wish ur shitbag Governor would have acted and cut ur scab state right out of the union. What happen to that Terray? I thought he wanted out of the country or were the stimulus dollars to hard for him to turn down when he said he didn't want any?



Don't ya just love Texas!?


funny-graphs-texas.gif




but that economist Card I referenced a few times lives and teaches in Berkeley, CA :shrug:




Bottom line Unions created the middle class and the Republicans have been hell bent for years to destroy them and the middle class. That is reality.

Yeah!! Let's all sing together!!:


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Trench

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Unions?

This area has more fictions and faith than almost any other in economics.

The most important fact to know is that unions do not increase wages going to US workers. Never have, never will.

Anyway, the significant fact here is that unions have not and cannot in any useful way increase the percentage of national income that goes toward workers' wages and salaries.
Typical myopic Republican view.

It's easy to bash unions now that the U.S. is predominantly a service economy. But unions were an essential part of the industrial revolution when the U.S. economy was manufacturing based. Without collective bargaining, most laborers in the 20th century wouldn't have had an 8 hour workday, overtime pay, safety standards in the workplace and most of the basic benefits we take for granted today.

For the past 30 years, corporations, the courts and Republican administrations have waged a war on unions. But you need look no further than second and third world countries today where non-unionized laborers work in sweatshops for a dollar a day to see what could have been in the U.S. without labor unions in the manufacturing economy of 20th century America.

Keep toeing the party line TerryRay. We already have one Republican sock-puppet in here (DTB), but you?re in luck because socks come in pairs.
 

The Sponge

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Typical myopic Republican view.

It's easy to bash unions now that the U.S. is predominantly a service economy. But unions were an essential part of the industrial revolution when the U.S. economy was manufacturing based. Without collective bargaining, most laborers in the 20th century wouldn't have had an 8 hour workday, overtime pay, safety standards in the workplace and most of the basic benefits we take for granted today.

For the past 30 years, corporations, the courts and Republican administrations have waged a war on unions. But you need look no further than second and third world countries today where non-unionized laborers work in sweatshops for a dollar a day to see what could have been in the U.S. without labor unions in the manufacturing economy of 20th century America.

Keep toeing the party line TerryRay. We already have one Republican sock-puppet in here (DTB), but you?re in luck because socks come in pairs.

Trench what happens is that the neo-cons are masterful in using one bad element of a huge group and then painting the huge group to be as bad as that one bad element. Unions, Aclu, Hollywood etc.. It goes on and on and somehow they get these numbskulls to buy into it. All groups that wouldn't give a penny to the republican party because they all know they are nothing more than corporate whores who would love to see people working for a dollar a day. I wonder if that has something to do with it. Could u imagine owning a company overseas knowing ur employess are breaking their backs making a dollar a day, and these assholes are laughing stuffing money in their pillow cases. How the fuk could one live with themselves? These assholes on this site that support this bullshit i wouldn't even waste my spit on them. Then again u couldn't get away with this kind of nonsense unless u have a real shitty party on the side of the people.
 

rusty

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not sure how ur bills are stayiing the same. Seems like i can't get by a week without something going up. Sewer the latest.

Good point.I was talking Mortgage,Phone and a couple credit cards.But yes electric ,groceries,to name a few are just robbery.
 

Trench

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I wonder if that has something to do with it. Could u imagine owning a company overseas knowing ur employess are breaking their backs making a dollar a day, and these assholes are laughing stuffing money in their pillow cases. How the fuk could one live with themselves?
I don't get it Spongey. I've never understood greed and I never will. U.S. corporations claim the only way they can "remain competitive" is on the backs of third world slave labor. But if this is what capitalism has come to, then capitalism has failed.

We've built an economy that serves the rich. America's always been a class society, but when the middle-class is gone and we awaken to find a two-class society, the gig will be up for the master class.
 

Terryray

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Without collective bargaining, most laborers in the 20th century wouldn't have had an 8 hour workday, overtime pay, safety standards in the workplace and most of the basic benefits we take for granted today.

That is not what is taught in every textbook on labor economics in every university in every country in the Western world.

Unions were, in fact, a rather small part in all those.

Perhaps you could enlighten labor economists on this subject. Overturn their long established core theories here and you'd get an instant Nobel Prize for sure.


Even the most influential pro-union book written by economists in recent decades (Richard B. Freeman and James L. Medoff's "What Do Unions Do") recognize that their profession regards unions as a mostly negative influence on society. Freeman/Medoff just offer very marginal arguments for their (weak) pro-union stance with no new theorizing to replace what all economists understand to be the main forces at play.
 

Trench

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That is not what is taught in every textbook on labor economics in every university in every country in the Western world.
C'mon Terryray, you're obviously a well educated, but more importantly, a well read guy. So why the pretense of supporting a position based upon the limited and formulaic objective of "textbooks"?
 

Terryray

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C'mon Terryray, you're obviously a well educated, but more importantly, a well read guy. So why the pretense of supporting a position based upon the limited and formulaic objective of "textbooks"?

my above post had a link which showed more than textbooks. And argued such. It wasn't limited, it was global and comprehensive in it's approach!

If you think it through. :0074

most certainly nothing as "limited and formulaic" as the phrases of union faith you trot over and over, unadorned by nothing but their majestic credo :0044

to restate:

I had a link to the most favorable book by labor economists who might support your analysis of changes in labor economics, and they can't come up with anything close to your extravagant claims.

Obviously, my point with that and textbooks that you are presenting an argument of historic development in labor economics that is not shared by any labor economist.

Not one who teaches this anywhere.

I hope you don't go to your dentist for a mechanical problem with your car. You don't go to a historian like Zinn, ranting on about Haymarket, when you need analysis in labor economics.

Freeman and Medoff do acknowledge all the harm unions cause workers (as a whole) and harm to the economy. But they also make arguments that unions do some good for all workers in certain areas. They posit if you balance the bad with the good a case can be made that tip the scales to argue that unions do bit more good than bad.

And this slight hurrah was, and still is, regarded as a big challenge to what economists believe is the settled understanding.

Freeman and Medoff are nice, and don't go on about what rapacious nasty greedheads many highly successful businessmen are. Adam Smith did that plenty. But Smith also pointed out what market forces exist that makes those assholes (very much against their will!) have to pay ever higher wages and benefits to workers. Workers who, in growing competitive and free labor markets, can quit and take their ever-increasing valuable labor elsewhere.
 

Trampled Underfoot

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If you think it through. :0074

You gotta love that. I'll be honest, I haven't read any of your links and I really don't care to. If I have some time maybe I will later. However, you can spend all day citing experts on both sides. Its like the global warming fight. 95% of scientists agree that it is real but there are always a few that don't.

The fact is that people of modest means are working harder than ever to keep up. A man who is a hard worker can't support a family anymore. If you don't have an education with a degree in demand you are screwed. In my opinion it is sad when a guy who wants to work hard for 8 hours a day can't survive anymore. Couples are both having to work and still having trouble. What does that lead to? Kids staying at home with no supervision. Those kids get fucked up very easily. You can see the cycle. Its a downward spiral caused by the greed of the top 5%.
 

Trench

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my above post had a link which showed more than textbooks. And argued such. It wasn't limited, it was global and comprehensive in it's approach!

If you think it through. :0074

most certainly nothing as "limited and formulaic" as the phrases of union faith you trot over and over, unadorned by nothing but their majestic credo :0044
Well, I'll just have to take your word for it that a 1984 textbook on Human Resource Management is "global and comprehensive in it's approach".

It seems to have made an impression of orgasmic proportions upon you... :142smilie
 

Terryray

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Well, I'll just have to take your word for it that a 1984 textbook on Human Resource Management is "global and comprehensive in it's approach".

It seems to have made an impression of orgasmic proportions upon you... :142smilie


You still don't get it :0008

the textbooks was a vehicle for me to make the point that your argument flies in the face of what is understood by virtually everyone who researches and teaches this subject.

It isn't that expert vs this one, it is a call for you to attempt to put your faith to a test of facts and analysis as understood by almost 100% in this field you are making claims in.
 

Trench

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You still don't get it :0008

the textbooks was a vehicle for me to make the point that your argument flies in the face of what is understood by virtually everyone who researches and teaches this subject.

It isn't that expert vs this one, it is a call for you to attempt to put your faith to a test of facts and analysis as understood by almost 100% in this field you are making claims in.
Well, I hardly think that one 1984 textbook (that you claim supports your position on this subject) encompasses all of intelligentsia. But hey, if you consider Freeman and Medoff the oracles of all knowledge on this subject, who am I to question the objects of your idolatry?

So carry on my wayward son... there'll be peace when you are done. :SIB
 
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