This explains it--and one for the archives

[kcwolf]

In keeping with DTB's wish, I must also do my small part.:


bump:







:0053

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

I also took the time to research the topic. Chad has done a solid job. Sorry you had to be ridiculed after the points you made.

As I seeit, the major problem with the survey is that it is really a test of agreement with conservative economic theories, written under the assumption that their views are correct regardless of how disastrous application of their views has been in the real world. The only thing this study demonstrates is the ideological hackery of its authors.?

Using the same technique, one could ?prove? that conservatives know more about science than liberals. Science has typically been a strong suit for liberals.

Here is a sample test written from such a conservative perspective. To make things simple I?ll make this a true or false test, with all answers true from a conservative perspective on science:

1 ) An intelligent designer is responsible for the development of complex organisms.

2 ) Darwinists believe men descended from monkeys.

3 ) Evolution is just a theory?there is no evidence for it.

4 ) The earth is 6000 years old or less.

5 ) The Grand Canyon was created by Noah?s flood.

6 ) Global warming is a hoax.

7 ) The earth is cooling, not warming.

8 ) Dinosaurs and humans both lived together, like on The Flintstones.

9 ) The earth is the center of the universe.

10) The earth is flat.

Conservatives who answer true to all these questions could claim to understand more about science than liberals who would get these questions ?wrong.?

This would be as meaningful as their claims of knowing more about economics as your test provides.

DTB, the simple truth is the test you brought up holds no water what so ever. As Chad states, the parameters of the test are ridiculous. Conservatives may very well have a better grasp on economics, but through that bogus test nor the bogus test I presented.

Professionals in testing procedures are rightfully scoffing at it.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

Zogsby poll is conservative????

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Wayne, I'm really not understanding what you don't get about what I posted. Let's start here... did you actually read through the entire report? I did, most of it. It's how I found the information that I put in my post. The fact that you won't understand what point I'm trying to make makes me think you haven't read the info that you posted.

You keep referring to "my poll." You ask me to put up stats from the link you gave me to back up my "opinion/interpretation." I did. Evidently you don't realize that yet, and think I'm adding something different to my "opinion/interpretation." I'm not. I'm using YOUR link, and the info in it, and posting that. If you don't believe me, I suggest you go back to YOUR link, and review the material in it. ALL of it. My info comes several pages down, and from the very first page of the report. "My poll" is nothing more than reporting who was asked the questions in the survey. And let me make this point again, as clearly as I can, which is no opinion, nor interpretation. It seems to be a fact, taken directly from your information:

The people surveyed for this report were apparently about 90% liberals. That means, the answering ratio was 9 liberals to every one conservative. The conclusion that is being reported - the only real conclusion from giving us the results of only 8 of the 16 questions - is that more liberals answered more questions wrong. Just a bigger number of wrong answers. On what planet would you figure you'd get more wrong answers from a group of 1, compared to a group of 9?

You keep trying to paint me as being wrong here, avoiding your info, some kind of nebulous challenge to back up my point. I have done it. Twice now. If you choose not to really look at what I'm saying, that's your choice. But it seems like you are the only one not understanding it, or perhaps avoiding really looking at it. Which is also your choice. But I suggest you take the time to try to understand it - since it was brought up by you.

I'm not going to get personal and try to embarrass or ridicule you, I'll leave that to you, if you like.

Asked and answered, counselor. It's your move. :0074

Chad for the 2nd time--only thing we are getting is your opinion--I gave you the link--all you have to do is put up the data contained in report you feel was errant.

---and I'm still waiting.

It's always the sameold shit--we put up the #'s you counter with opinion--and KC and T brothers do there cheerleading.
Do I need to bring back KC's report on how doubling utility bills makes them cheaper again


Lets make this real simple again

Specifically which #'s in report are you disputing--if any--paste data from report you think was in error. If you can I am always open to change my mind--

But it will take facts from report--not a few paragraphs of how you interpret them.

Put them up and let everyone form their own opinion--we report-you decide

speaking of opinion--how did you come up with your central thesis of arguement--that survey was 90% far left liberals--

YOUR POINT, is that more liberals answered more questions wrong ON THIS SURVEY. THIS SURVEY was asked of a population of about 90% far left liberals

++++++++++++++++++++

Exactly how do you interpret that from--

Table 2. Percentage INCORRECT by Ideology (using twopoint
scale for question responses).
Progressive
(n=577)
Liberal
(n=742)
Moderate
(n=1086)
Conservative
(n=1423)
Very
Conservative
(n=540)
Libertarian
(n=369)
TOTAL*
(n=4737)
Restrictions on
housing
development
make housing
less affordable.
67.6% 60.1% 45.9% 22.3% 17.6% 15.7% 38.1%
Mandatory
licensing of
professional
services
increases the
prices of those
services.
51.3% 50.0% 40.7% 25.6% 19.1% 12.7% 34.3%
Overall, the
standard of
living is higher
today than it
was 30 years
ago.
61.0% 52.0% 36.9% 13.8% 12.0% 21.1% 31.2%
Rent control
leads to
housing
shortages.
79.2% 70.9% 52.4% 23.0% 14.1% 15.7% 42.5%
A company
with the largest
market share is
a monopoly.
30.8% 27.9% 26.0% 12.5% 13.5% 6.8% 19.9%
Third-world
workers
working for
American
companies
overseas are
being
exploited.
83.0% 77.0% 60.7% 30.9% 25.9% 29.3% 50.6%
Free trade
leads to
unemployment.
60.8% 44.6% 40.0% 20.9% 16.1% 19.5% 33.2%
Minimum wage
laws raise
unemployment.
92.5% 86.3% 64.8% 17.5% 11.3% 17.6% 47.6%
INCORRECT
(average)
5.26
(SE=0.07)
4.69
(SE=0.06)
3.67
(SE=0.06)
1.67
(SE=0.04)
1.30
(SE=0.06)
1.38
(SE=0.09)
2.98
(SE=0.03)
* Total includes only those respondents represented in the preceding six columns; that is, it does not include
respondents who did not answer both the ideology question and the policy question treated in the row.
The line at the bottom reports for each ideological group the average number
of incorrect answers. Adults self-identifying ?very conservative? and ?libertarian?

:0corn

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

DTB, just to let you know the forum is now unrestricted. I figured you might want to start deleting stuff right away.

 

[Chadman]

As much as it pains me, as I take a longer look at my argument, it's completely wrong. I stand corrected, and apologize for taunting you, Wayne. I misread the charts I was quoting from.

While I do still think the admittances of the surveyors that this is a biased survey, for 4 different reasons, my point was completely off base.

I honestly would not have expected liberals to answer craftily constructed right wing questions designed to achieve a specific result, and the surveyors even acknowledge that out of the gate of their "findings", but my personal point was simply wrong. Sorry for attacking - need to do less typing when drinking - that's for should...

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Thank you Sir--an honest mistake :0008

 

[Chadman]

Got up this morning, and thought: "Hey, I'm proof of what the survey shows..."

So, there's that, I guess... :tongue

 

[Trench]

The Zogby test is an obvious setup to produce a desired result -- make liberals appear to be "unenlightened" in the realm of economics.

I could easily devise a test that would make conservatives appear to be just as "unenlightened" on economics (or science, or foreign policy, or any number of subjects). I could phrase each question so that conservative respondents would likely choose what I have deemed, from a liberal perspective, to be the "unenlighted answer" and produce my desired results. It would prove nothing. Particularly in the realm of economics which are so intertwined with politics. Questions regarding economics and politics will always have more than one answer depending upon how liberal or conservative one's views are.

The test created by these Zogby pollsters proves this. What it does NOT prove is that conservatives are any more or any less informed about economics than liberals are.

Trench

 

[kcwolf]

I've been wondering how liberalshere come back with insane opinions like doubling utility rates saves money among others--now I'm see why--from WSJ

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...5282190930932412.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop


Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?
Self-identified liberals and Democrats do badly on questions of basic economics.

By DANIEL B. KLEIN

Who is better informed about the policy choices facing the country?liberals, conservatives or libertarians? According to a Zogby International survey that I write about in the May issue of Econ Journal Watch, the answer is unequivocal: The left flunks Econ 101.

Zogby researcher Zeljka Buturovic and I considered the 4,835 respondents' (all American adults) answers to eight survey questions about basic economics. We also asked the respondents about their political leanings: progressive/very liberal; liberal; moderate; conservative; very conservative; and libertarian.
Rather than focusing on whether respondents answered a question correctly, we instead looked at whether they answered incorrectly. A response was counted as incorrect only if it was flatly unenlightened.
Consider one of the economic propositions in the December 2008 poll: "Restrictions on housing development make housing less affordable." People were asked if they: 1) strongly agree; 2) somewhat agree; 3) somewhat disagree; 4) strongly disagree; 5) are not sure.
Basic economics acknowledges that whatever redeeming features a restriction may have, it increases the cost of production and exchange, making goods and services less affordable. There may be exceptions to the general case, but they would be atypical.

Therefore, we counted as incorrect responses of "somewhat disagree" and "strongly disagree." This treatment gives leeway for those who think the question is ambiguous or half right and half wrong. They would likely answer "not sure," which we do not count as incorrect.
In this case, percentage of conservatives answering incorrectly was 22.3%, very conservatives 17.6% and libertarians 15.7%. But the percentage of progressive/very liberals answering incorrectly was 67.6% and liberals 60.1%.

The pattern was not an anomaly.

The other questions were: 1) Mandatory licensing of professional services increases the prices of those services (unenlightened answer: disagree). 2) Overall, the standard of living is higher today than it was 30 years ago (unenlightened answer: disagree). 3) Rent control leads to housing shortages (unenlightened answer: disagree). 4) A company with the largest market share is a monopoly (unenlightened answer: agree). 5) Third World workers working for American companies overseas are being exploited (unenlightened answer: agree). 6) Free trade leads to unemployment (unenlightened answer: agree). 7) Minimum wage laws raise unemployment (unenlightened answer: disagree).

How did the six ideological groups do overall? Here they are, best to worst, with an average number of incorrect responses from 0 to 8: Very conservative, 1.30; Libertarian, 1.38; Conservative, 1.67; Moderate, 3.67; Liberal, 4.69; Progressive/very liberal, 5.26.
Americans in the first three categories do reasonably well. But the left has trouble squaring economic thinking with their political psychology, morals and aesthetics.
To be sure, none of the eight questions specifically challenge the political sensibilities of conservatives and libertarians. Still, not all of the eight questions are tied directly to left-wing concerns about inequality and redistribution. In particular, the questions about mandatory licensing, the standard of living, the definition of monopoly, and free trade do not specifically challenge leftist sensibilities.

Yet on every question the left did much worse. On the monopoly question, the portion of progressive/very liberals answering incorrectly (31%) was more than twice that of conservatives (13%) and more than four times that of libertarians (7%). On the question about living standards, the portion of progressive/very liberals answering incorrectly (61%) was more than four times that of conservatives (13%) and almost three times that of libertarians (21%).
The survey also asked about party affiliation. Those responding Democratic averaged 4.59 incorrect answers. Republicans averaged 1.61 incorrect, and Libertarians 1.26 incorrect.
Adam Smith described political economy as "a branch of the science of a statesman or legislator." Governmental power joined with wrongheadedness is something terrible, but all too common. Realizing that many of our leaders and their constituents are economically unenlightened sheds light on the troubles that surround us.
Mr. Klein is a professor of economics at George Mason University. This op-ed is based on an article published in the May 2010 issue of the journal he edits, Econ Journal Watch, a project sponsored by the American Institute for Economic Research. The article is at: http://econjwatch.org/articles/economic-enlightenment-in-relation-to-college-going-ideology-and-other-variables-a-zogby-survey-of-am

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

--but IMO in defense of liberals I do give them high marks on running spell checker and reading from telepromter

:bump:

I did my part, archiving this to my Microsoft Works. I hate to see this piece so worthy slip down to far, now that the forum is once again opened up to all lurkers. I'm sure there are hundreds who would like to do as I did.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Hers some more I have that ended similiar you may want to add to your archives--

Bush Tried to Stop this Mortgage Meltdown in 2003
http://www.madjacksports.com/forum/showthread.php?t=338240

How did we get into this Financial crisis?
http://www.madjacksports.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358028

I don't get it
http://www.madjacksports.com/forum/showthread.php?t=343671&page=2&highlight=calculator

Sweep of the pen, the President and Democrats, created the largest welfare state..
http://www.madjacksports.com/forum/showthread.php?t=357830&highlight=past+point+no+return

Political Charity
http://www.madjacksports.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2545395#post2545395

They had similiar results-
-:talk: --facts presented--kurby

Feel free to bring any back for re-evaluation if you think you my have found "some relevant facts" in support of opinion. :0008

 

[kcwolf]

Feel free to bring any back for re-evaluation if you think you my have found "some relevant facts" in support of opinion. :0008

Pat yourself on the back. The one and only person who has never been wrong nor recognize apologies.

I have the only archive I want, a riduclous test that is so important one needs to save it for the ages.

:mj07:

 

[Trench]

The Zogby test is an obvious setup to produce a desired result -- make liberals appear to be "unenlightened" in the realm of economics.

I could easily devise a test that would make conservatives appear to be just as "unenlightened" on economics (or science, or foreign policy, or any number of subjects). I could phrase each question so that conservative respondents would likely choose what I have deemed, from a liberal perspective, to be the "unenlighted answer" and produce my desired results. It would prove nothing. Particularly in the realm of economics which are so intertwined with politics. Questions regarding economics and politics will always have more than one answer depending upon how liberal or conservative one's views are.

The test created by these Zogby pollsters proves this. What it does NOT prove is that conservatives are any more or any less informed about economics than liberals are.

Trench

Fox News Reporter: "Mr. DTGumby... Would you care to comment on Trench's allegations that the Zogby test is fraudulent and nothing more than a fluff piece created by two pollsters with too much time on their hands?"

:0corn

Trench

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Pat yourself on the back. The one and only person who has never been wrong nor recognize apologies.

I have the only archive I want, a riduclous test that is so important one needs to save it for the ages.

:mj07:

KC I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong and have been on several occasions--just show me the facts--and if correct I'll admit it--
Matter of fact (ask judge) have paid with sweatshirt for being wrong--wasn't any haggling on issue --just a yes your right -I was wrong--what size texas sweatshirt you want--in mail next day--and received a :0008 from Gregg 2days later.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Fox News Reporter: "Mr. DTGumby... Would you care to comment on Trench's allegations that the Zogby test is fraudulent and nothing more than a fluff piece created by two pollsters with too much time on their hands?"

:0corn

Trench

T --I read your statement twice and there is not "one fact" you brought into debate.

As usual--all opinion--and if this poll proved anything it was value of liberals opinion weighed against the facts :SIB

 

[THE KOD]

KC I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong and have been on several occasions--just show me the facts--and if correct I'll admit it--
Matter of fact (ask judge) have paid with sweatshirt for being wrong--wasn't any haggling on issue --just a yes your right -I was wrong--what size texas sweatshirt you want--in mail next day--and received a :0008 from Gregg 2days later.

.............................................................

DTBlackgumby

would you consider sending the 2500 RAYMOND owes Judge to put him in good standing again.

your such a purveyor of whats right and wrong.