To NCU (now you can read your own mail) and everyone.

Doctor Baseball

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NCU, first congratulations for all the stuff you do for all of us, by the way PLEASE continue writing your FTSM explanations not only the picks. Now, (remember im 20 and i want to learn) do you think sportsbooks know which team is gonna win? (at least more than 50% of the time). This can sound stupid but i guess that when you tell us that Pinnacle is 3 cents cheaper etc. etc and that they are inviting you to have action on some team, we can say on another words that Pinnacle is getting cheaper lets say on Oak because they want people to bet on it because they know that KC can win the game. I like to analyze a lot of what a call "human" angles before a bet (well sometimes) for example that all the people from my sportsbook are betting the same side (and bet the other), when line drops from -150 to -130 like to play the -130. To play against the guys that are so lazy to pick their own games and bet a side because Peter Pan is telling that is his 100,000 star lock American Dog game of the year. Or to play against them when they are having a difficult day and they risk a lot of money on the night game just to brake even. So coming back to the question, what do you think?, you think they know the winners most of the time?. And for the people that probably are going to put their sarcastic post "yeah sure they know who is gonna win thats way they got Randy J. at -220, when thay can have it at +140 if they know he is gonna lost and win a lot of money ass***" well i just think that they place the line in order to get even action, and not take a risk.
Thanks for your time NCU, (in case you read this).
 

Never Caught Up

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Nobody, and I mean nobody, knows who is going to win. When a big store like Pinnacle takes a position you will notice it isusually on a dog like Tampa Bay two nights ago and Minnesota yesterday. They have access to information you and I would never have access to, but lady luck is still going to determine the outcome of at least half the games played.

Let's assume you and I could pick winners 55 to 58 per cent of the time. As cappers with limited information compared to a big offshore book with deep pockets we pride ourselves in the fact that we can do that.

Now, assume instead of laying 11 to 10 on a pointspread sport (to keep it simple) let's assume we had the book giving us 11 to 10. Do you think you could make money picking 55% to 58% getting 11 to ten?

Money line sports work a little different, but the principle is the same. A store like Pinnacle takes a position on a game they like because it generates a huge amount of action compared to what would come in if they just stayed in the mainstream.

Also, they do what is called "booking faces" which means when certain high rollers that normally win make plays into non skewed lines they adjust the line a bit following that play.

I spent 27 years on the BM side of this business and only became a player in 1993. I even studied sports book management at Clark County Community college in Las Vegas back in the early 80's.

Hope that helps you understand why I kind of tend to look at this business from the other side of the fence.
 

Never Caught Up

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I have a thought I want to add.

There are some idiots, like beantownjim in the general discussion forum, that tend to trash everything other people say without even thinking out what they are saying and that always makes me a little leary of sharing my ideas. Mad Jack's is the only forum I have ever participated in where the cappers respect each other and are open minded enough to try and learn from each other rather than try to impress each other. I learn something on here everyday from cappers who know far more than I will ever know.

Your attitude, at the age of twenty, towards learning from others is refreshing in this environment. In this business most of the "super ego know it alls" soon end up super broke.

I think you and Antonio are the first two people who have ever asked me to explain my methods. I have had lots of people tell me "You can't use line information to pick winners" without even bothering to ask how I used it or what I saw in it.

It is not the best way to pick winners by itself, but combined with other forms of handicapping like technical analysis and fundamental knowledge it has its place . . . and more importantly to me . . . it is something I can understand.

There are at least 20 technical handicappers on here that never cease to amaze me. They end up on Tiger's list day in and day out. And when it comes to fundamental knowledge Fletcher and Raymond are as good as I have ever seen. I don't blindly follow any of them, but I always pay attention to all of them.

I have grand kids nearly as old as you and they wouldn't last five minutes in this business because they already know everything there is to know about everything.

It is a fact that only 3% of the people who bet on sports make money doing it. Keep asking questions and hang on to your humbleness (and your BR) and you will be in that 3%.

Best wishes,

NCU
 

Subagoto

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I have learned a lot from you and several others on here, NCU. It is much appreciated and I look forward to learning more from you and others. I have been at this for almost 2 years now, and I am alway eager for more info and more knowledge. Anything to beat the man helps. As far as beantown, I posted several days ago that I was not going to give him the attention he so desperately desires and encouraged others to follow suit. Apparently that did not work. If someone as respected on this forum and knowledgeable about this business ignores him, perhaps others will too. I hope so. He will go away.
 

yyz

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JL,

I think it is refreshing to see a book, "take a stance" on a side.

That shows a little bit of gamble on their part. I don't think that they have winner, that is for sure. They just feel strong about a side.
 

buddy

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Never Caught Up,

Have to admit, your replies are well-written and sensible.

I have a question regarding your statement, "You can't use line information to pick winners."

For a few years, in NCAA and NFL, I have followed O/L's, line movement and C/L's.

To make a long story short, I noticed some line trends seem to work (almost 100% !!! ), but for only the first 4-5 weeks, then they began to falter.

Have you ever noticed this pattern?

Secondly, when monitoring line movements, do you use a "line service" or do you just have a particular site that you follow?

Lastly, one line movement pattern that I've always took stock in was this......

With the site that I monitor, if any team opens as a dog of 10 or less AND THE LINE DOES NOT BUDGE ONE IOTA FROM OPENING TO CLOSE (fluctuation in the line move is a "no play",i.e, 3/3/3/2'/3/3=no play), the dog is my play.
 

Never Caught Up

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"You can't use line information to pick winners." wasn't my statement. That is what others often tell me. I don't agree. The key word is line "information" and not necessarily movement.

To answer your question of have I ever noticed a pattern I would have to answer "No", but I haven't looked for one either. It may be there.

Whew, this is getting pretty technical. Let me try and explain exactly what I look for and how I try to find it.

I use line information for only two things.

(1) Identify big stores taking positions.
(2) Identify syndicate action.

You could say I use it for only on thing because both of the above things fall under this heading.

"Follow the money." (Follow doesn't necessarily mean do the same thing.)

O/L's - I look to see where different stores open their numbers compared to Roxy's opening line. It isn't Roxborough any more, but the opening line still has it's beginning at his company. For those of you who are fairly new, Michael Roxborough became the main oddsmaker back in the eighties after Bob Martin retired. Martin set the opening numbers for many years. Nearly every Nevada book and many offshore books get their opening numbers from the company Roxy founded.

Don Best publishes what they call the opening line and I use it. It really doesn't mean a lot. I just scan it to see which side of that number they are on.

Then I wait until enough time has passed to for all the stores I monitor (I use a line service and get real time lines from over 20 stores) to be open and the numbers fairly stable. I then use a column on my worksheet to record the lowest favorite price I see anywhere and the biggest dog price I see anywhere. I call this the Hi-Lo. Believe it or not sometimes on a moneyline you will find variances big enough that the dog at one place might pay more than the favorite costs at another (example -140 favorite back to +143 on the dog).

Next I go to Pinnacle Sports and get their lines and compare them to the Hi-Lo. See http://www.madjacksports.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/007668.

I use Pinnacle because they, in my opinion, have the sharpest numbers of any book there is. They deal an eight cent line for huge limits (50K and up by phone).

By comparing Pinnacles lines to the Hi-Lo I can tell when they are taking a position . . . and if they are willing to take a position for the kind of money they will take in wagers I figure I want to be betting on the same side they are. It's really pretty simple.

That is how the FTSM PLAYS are generated.

The other thing I look for is syndicate action and that is somewhat subjective. I am now using Don Best's DBS2K and they make that one pretty easy. You can set it to alert you when certain conditions are met.

I have a list of about 15 books that when any four different books move their lines in the same direction at least five cents in 15 seconds or less it sets off an alert. That is much different than just monitoring line moves. The public can and does move lines, but not at four stores in less than 15 seconds. That is "wise guy" action conming in across the board all at once.

That is what generates the STEAM PLAYS.

That's it. That is all I look for in the lines and to me that is very useful information. The trends and things like that may all be very valid, but that isn't what I am looking for. I just use the lines to follow the money and determine if it is smart money or public money.

If Custer had known what hill the Indians were coming over he would have survived the battle.

NCU

Note: DBS2k costs 500 a month. Other line services like G & J update are less expensive, but I don't know how much they cost. Goldcupsports on this forum sent me a link the other day to a free line service that is only delayed by about two minutes. I don't have the link handy because I prefer my real time service.

Don Best still has Island Express, but it is now delayed 15 minutes . . . and you will have the steam plays here on this forum usually 14 minutes ahead of that.
 

kosar

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What kind of 'information' would pinnacle have that 'we would never have access to'?

Never Caught Up
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From:San Antonio, TX
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 07-30-2001 07:07 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nobody, and I mean nobody, knows who is going to win. When a big store like Pinnacle takes a position you will notice it isusually on a dog like Tampa Bay two nights ago and Minnesota yesterday. They have access to information you and I would never have access to
 

JohnWise

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Let's assume you have a $500 per month line service. That is an expense. Assume you have a system that gets you a 5% return. That is what the books shoot for. You need to make $10000 worth of bets per month to break even. Some people can afford this easily and some can't. Just a caution to those who want to run out and pay this much without thinking it all the way through.
If I ran a sportsbook, playing line changes wouldn't work with me. I would be right on top of them. If you can find one that doesn't stop you from playing them, go for it. As long as they pay and you can profit...do it to it Pruitt.
Sometimes a less expensive service could accomplish the same thing. Maybe the book changes lines slowly. Time may not be of the essence. I know there are some books who must write the odds in stone. You can wait for word of mouth to find out of changes and still scalp these guys.
Hope this made sense. I wrote so much that I am not going to even reread it. Very unlike me. But it is Monday, no games so to speak and I am bored to death and getting lazy.
GLTA
JW
 

Never Caught Up

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Again, I don't play line changes except on the STEAM PLAYS and that is a very specific kind of rapid and across the board change.

My main area of concentration is to try to read the market to determine what the smart money is doing. That is where the FTSM PLAYS come from. Actually, those come more often than not from a line not changing when everyone is.

JohnWise is very wise in pointing out that nobody needs to add $500 a month to their overhead without reason. I am not encouraging anyone to even gamble, much less increase their overhead. Besides, if that is the only reason you would buy the line service why not just let me post the STEAM PLAYS for free and save $500 a month?

As far as what kind of info a huge offshore sportsbook might have that we wouldn't have access to, just for starters, their clients, clients that make BIG informed decisions . . . not just firing from the hip.

This whole thing began with me answering a simple question a few days ago to Antonio and I now feel like it has now turned into a matter of proof and justification.

I don't have the answers to all the questions that keep coming up and certainly don't want to have to start defending my systems . . . and I am starting to feel like that is what I am doing. If they work for me that is all that really matters whether I explain them or not.

If I can post some info that helps someone make a dollar, then terrific. If it isn't helpful then kindly disregard.

May we all win as Raymond says "BIG!!!"

NCU

"Where there's odds . . . there's hope."
 

TORONTO-VIGILANTE

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"...Quo fas et gloria ducunt..."
WOW, NCU, that was quite the article you wrote there...
and again, this is educating me to the greatest degree as I NEVER look at line movements and whatnot. There must be some serious work time involved in this.

Thanks for the work that you've been doin in the forum...
 

buddy

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tv,

Betting on my trends and patterns is similar to watching the fat lady sitting on the fifty yard line ten minutes before kickoff...

If she scratches her ass with her right hand, play the favorite.

If she uses her left, play the dog.

There really is no rhyme or reason to that pattern other than the dog seems to cover the greater majority of the time.

Question: If you followed lines and line movement and you identified a pattern that really made no handicapping sense, yet it produced a winner 6-7-8 times in a row, would you continue to pay attention to it?
 

JohnWise

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I hope I am not being misunderstood. I am not criticizing anyone's system. That is not my style. Anyone who knows me knows that. But one thing I do understand is line movement. Let's just say that for years I watched lines move and waited for the phone calls... to me. Playing line moves will work. That is why it was always such a good feeling to say, "Oh, by the way, that line changed".... silence on the other end. I have been on both ends of this for more years than I care to remember.
Once again, I criticize nobody.
 

Never Caught Up

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John, I respect you far too much to take anything you say as a critical remark. Not at all. I was just expressing how I am starting to feel overall. Every question I answer sparks two more. Know what I mean?

I sense there are many of us on this forum who who have paid our dues on the other end of that phone. We've seen the "hot" action come in from the wise guys who would get pissed off because we wouldn't let them wrap it up in all kinds of parlays.

Two weeks later when that "hot" action would turned "ice cold" I would pick up the phone and say "Stand on your head and bet your ass off . . . how much you want?"

You know exactly what I mean.

I look forward to buying everyone a round in Vegas.
 

TORONTO-VIGILANTE

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"...Quo fas et gloria ducunt..."
buddy:

Question: If you followed lines and line movement and you identified a pattern that really made no handicapping sense, yet it produced a winner 6-7-8 times in a row, would you continue to pay attention to it?

yes, I would...

thanks for the thoughts.
biggrin.gif

i'll be looking for this type of
line movement...might do an experiment meself now...in bases and football.


[This message has been edited by TORONTO-VIGILANTE (edited 07-30-2001).]
 

TJBELL

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hey all! NCU is right on the money as far as line changes go. great write up!

john wise- your last name says it all. i see you post here and everywhere. this man is very knowledgeable!!

buddy- don't know why, but i have indeed noticed the exact same theory on the line with absolutely NO movement seems to always be the dog. can't explain!

NCU, here is a link that is FREE and very useful for anyone who can't afford DB and the others. it takes some plaing with to figure out.
http://194.201.13.117/index.php?lang=0

for anyone wanting a much easier FREE place to follow line moves, try this one. newer lines keep moving left to right. this one updates roughly every 1/2 hour or so. some scamdicapper runs it, so take it for what it's worth.
http://scoresandodds.com/

this is a great site (am a poster at another large site) great cappers here and no (or little) bitch slappin here. follow a lot of posters plays from here. thanks guys (and gals!) GOOD LUCK TO EVERYONE. TOM
 

kosar

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NCU,

I guess i'll assume (by default) that it was *my* question that made you suddenly realize that you are getting tired of answering questions. I do apologize for that.

However, wouldn't it be realistic to expect questions, based on the fact that your system, or whatever, peppers the forum every day?

I certainly did not post my question to 'criticize' you. Just because somebody may disagree with something you said doesn't mean that you are being 'criticized'. Let's try not to be so defensive. Everybody has a right to his or her opinion.

In MY opinion, Pinnacle, or any other book, does not have access to any 'information' that is not readily available to anybody. Sure, if you stare at the screen, you will see big line changes and big money moves, and thusly you will have that 'information' right along with Pinnacle and right along with the rest of the gambling world.

This brings us to another question (don't worry, I'm not asking you to answer it), how strong are these 'smart money/syndicate' plays? The answer is: marginally strong at a certain number in certain sports in certain years.

Here is another(rhetorical of course) question, how strong is the play after the line has been 'straightened out'?

I guess that i've always 'questioned', no pun intended, the whole 'follow the steam' theorem because the followers are laying bad numbers all the way up and down the ladder. This of course assumes that the reverence afforded to the 'syndicates' is pure. Which in these cases , of course it is.

If one is to blindly follow the steam (I'm not saying that you do), then where do the followers draw the line? If the line moves 12 cents, 1 1/2 points, whatever, and the followers are still laying it, are they making the judgment that the 'big, bad syndicates' stopped short? That they left value in the line? At this point do they care about value anymore, or are they just blindly following at any number? I submit that it's the latter. After all, if they could make a solid line themselves, they wouldn't have to wait for the 'steam' to hit, they would have already played it.

These of course are just my opinions. Thanks for opening the dialogue on a lazy Monday with no real action going on to speak of.

And always remember-even people that disagree with you are entitled to ask where you are coming from. I realize it's not as much fun as the cream-puff questions, but debate makes the world go 'round. (With apologies to Cow) Ya savvy?
 
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