Vigilante or Guardian?

justin22g

WAR EAGLE!
Forum Member
Sep 8, 2005
1,809
1
0
Birmingham, AL
States forbid the use of deadly force in the defense of property.

When force cannot be used.
1. the force is not immediately necessary, or
2. the amount of force is unreasonable, or
3. If what the other person is doing is lawful.

Only time deadly force is necessary and reasonable is when you encounter death or serious bodily injury.

Some states still have the castle doctrine, in common law means the man's house is his castle. No duty to retreat.

Many states say "It is your duty to retreat"
 

justin22g

WAR EAGLE!
Forum Member
Sep 8, 2005
1,809
1
0
Birmingham, AL
i've got to study this crap anyways... heres some cases in which force was not legally justified.

State v. Escamilla - Words alone never justify the use of force.(fighting words doctrine). Defendant claimed he killed the victim because the victim made a homosexual propostion to him. The trial court would not permit evidence of this defense

People v. Miller - Defendant claimed the victim beat her the night before. The courts held that this was not legal justification for the shooting the following day, and the conviction of attempted murder was affirmed.

When a 19 year old man broke into the cockpit of a commercial jet, seven passengers wrestled him to the floor and continued to beat and pound the senseless man, causing his death. Prosecutor did not seek an indictment, stating he did not believe he could obtain a homicide conviction.

A purse snatcher did not offer resistance after he was apprehended by witnesses to the crime. However, the purse snatcher was beaten and choked until he had no pulse and was taken to a hospital in critical condition.

Summary of the law on the use of force for defense of property.

less than deadly force - only such a dgree of force or threat thereof may intentionally be used as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference.

Deadly Force - Under the old common law, deadly force could be used in the defense of property. All states now forbid the use of intentional deadly force in the defense of property.
 

justin22g

WAR EAGLE!
Forum Member
Sep 8, 2005
1,809
1
0
Birmingham, AL
i might as well keep going... good study tool =]

Info about law enforcement and force.

1. Deadly force may never be used to make the arrest of or to prevent the escape of a person who has committed a misdemeanor.

2. deadly force may never be used on mere suspicion.

3. deadly force may never be used by law enforcement officers to arrest or prevent the escape of a person who has committed a nonviolent felony.


Deadly force may be used when "necessary to prevent escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious bodily injury to the officers or others"
 

no pepper

OUTSIDE NOW!
Forum Member
Aug 8, 2000
1,736
152
63
63
St. Louis
a commercial jet, seven passengers wrestled him to the floor and continued to beat and pound the senseless man, causing his death. Prosecutor did not seek an indictment, stating he did not believe he could obtain a homicide conviction.

is it 'pound the senseless man'

or

'beat and pound the man senseless'

I think it makes a difference if the victim is mentally deficient in this case.
 

justin22g

WAR EAGLE!
Forum Member
Sep 8, 2005
1,809
1
0
Birmingham, AL
why should that make a difference? Seven passengers have the man contained... He is not going anywhere.

Thus deadly force is not reasonable.
 

MadJack

Administrator
Staff member
Forum Admin
Super Moderators
Channel Owner
Jul 13, 1999
105,370
1,688
113
70
home
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Mei_cSyeqg8 or the newspaper article.


Dec. 3, 2007, 9:02AM
Protest over slain burglars takes a confrontational turn
Supporters of Pasadena man who shot two try to drown out Quanell X rally


By JENNIFER LEAHY
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

RESOURCES
Pasadena protests collide Dec. 2
Activist Quanell X and dozens of other protesters Sunday faced hundreds of homeowners and supporters of Joe Horn, the Pasadena man who shot and killed two men he suspected of burglarizing a neighbor's home more than two weeks ago.

Families of the slain men, Miguel Antonio DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, also were present.

Yard signs lined the 7400 block of Timberline in Pasadena, where the incident took place, as well as on nearby streets.

Residents and Horn supporters waved American flags and carried signs reading, "We love our neighbor for protecting our neighbors" and "Burglary is a risky business."

Motorcyclist Aaron "Blowout" Morrow, 43, and dozens of his fellow bikers lined Timberline, loudly revving their engines each time Quanell X attempted to speak.

"I support our rights as Americans to protect ourselves and support our Second Amendment rights," Morrow said.

Quanell X, who said he is not certain the shooting was racially motivated, said he "wouldn't be surprised" after Sunday afternoon's events.

"Our protesters were peaceful in spite of racial slurs," he said.

Some attendees screamed "USA! USA!" when Quanell X tried to speak while others booed the activist.

Numerous Pasadena police officers were on hand during the confrontation as were members of the SERT, Special Event Response Team, in riot gear but no arrests were made.

"I just can't believe that we've got a race riot going on in our neighborhood," said Michelle Howell, who lives several doors down from Horn.

"First of all, this is a quiet place, secondly we've got neighbors of all different races. This has nothing to do with race."

Quanell X has called for Horn, who is white, to be charged with murder for shooting DeJesus and Ortiz, who were black.

"Our position is that we do not condone their actions. We condemn their actions," Quanell X said. "But Horn acted as police officer, judge, jury and executioner all at the same time."

Maritza Munoz marched with the members of the New Black Panther Nation.

"Yes, they broke into people's houses, but it wasn't his right to kill them. What he (Horn) did was criminal," she said.

Carrie West grabbed a bullhorn and taunted Quanell X during his second formal attempt to address the crowd and media.

"We're just citizens standing up for another citizen who chose to protect himself," West said.

Supporters came from as far away as Onalaska and from all corners of Harris County.

Many took photographs and videos of the event. Most were outraged at the protest of Horn and the insinuation that race played a factor in the shooting.

Hundreds signed the back of signs that read "I support Joe Horn" with bluebonnets and a Texas flag in the background.

"It's really simple ? don't break into people's houses and you won't get shot," said Kim Jackson, who waved an American flag while yelling "Go home" at members of the New Black Panther Nation.

Horn, 61, shot DeJesus and Ortiz on Nov. 14 after telling police he saw them steal from a neighbor's home. Horn told a 911 operator that he intended to confront and shoot the men.

The blinds were closed at the Horn home Sunday and two "No trespassing" signs were on the lawn. One noted "Violators will be prosecuted."

It has not been determined if Horn will face charges for the homicides.

"We will be turning the case over to the Harris County District Attorney's Office in 7-10 days, and at that point it's out of our hands," Pasadena police spokesman Vance Mitchell said Sunday evening.
 

justin22g

WAR EAGLE!
Forum Member
Sep 8, 2005
1,809
1
0
Birmingham, AL
didnt know in texas you could use deadly force to protect property...

BUT... I bet the force must be reasonable and necessary. I have a feeling after this ordeal... that law might be changing.

From the soudns of the tape and the youtube film jack put up... apparently he ran after the guys.... and said... move... youre dead. This is crazy..

This is another one of those arguments where green pastures are on both sides of the fence.

All I know is.... You can't fight fire with fire. Back in the old days in England or somewhere over there =]... they used to publicly hang people that pick pocketed. And guess what was going on at these public hangings? Pick Pocketing.

Same argument can be made about capital punishment. Many say that this has made the homicide rates rise.

And the 3 strikes your out rule...


Plus... If I'm a burglar in Texas and I know of this law... You think I'm going to make a burglary without some kind of weapon? HELL NO. I'm going to be armed.


I think people should be in their last resort before killing someone. If these 2 guys ended up not getting caught, did it affect his life in anyway? No. Chances are the police would have caught the suspects within 5 minutes... and we never would have heard about this. Any kind of property... no matter how big or small... No amount of money is worth killing someone. Hell... insurance will take care of most things. Sure clearance rates aren't the highest for burglary and larceny... but I would rather see a spike in them than homicide rates anyday.
 

MadJack

Administrator
Staff member
Forum Admin
Super Moderators
Channel Owner
Jul 13, 1999
105,370
1,688
113
70
home
abc_gma_911call2_071117_ms.jpg
 

justin22g

WAR EAGLE!
Forum Member
Sep 8, 2005
1,809
1
0
Birmingham, AL
looks like a good guy... I guess he got worked up about it.

there is no way in hell I could take a human life over something like that.

I would have to be in fear of my life....

I wonder if he feels any remorse for killing those 2 men.
 

MadJack

Administrator
Staff member
Forum Admin
Super Moderators
Channel Owner
Jul 13, 1999
105,370
1,688
113
70
home
I wonder if he feels any remorse for killing those 2 men

hell no! he was chomping at the bit to go over there and blow those n*gg**s away.

:firing:
 

MadJack

Administrator
Staff member
Forum Admin
Super Moderators
Channel Owner
Jul 13, 1999
105,370
1,688
113
70
home
I might be the only one in here that thinks this... but isn't this a little crazy?

does anyone else think this is wrong?
i've been saying all along it's wrong. who the **** does he think he is taking the law into his own hands. christ, the cops aren't even allowed to shoot those guys. what a moron he is and he should be put in jail, imo. THAT guy isn't safe to be around, period!
 

justin22g

WAR EAGLE!
Forum Member
Sep 8, 2005
1,809
1
0
Birmingham, AL
True... and you can hear the 911 operator saying... "put the gun down.. we have undercover cops there in plain clothes."

What if he would have shot an officer? His intent was to kill the burglars... but he shot an officer thinking it was a burglar..

I'd have to say... Texas legislatures... its your own damn fault! The guy was acting under the law...
 

justin22g

WAR EAGLE!
Forum Member
Sep 8, 2005
1,809
1
0
Birmingham, AL
Could have shot them in the legs. On the other hand, you have to know you are putting your life in danger when you are premedatating a burglary. Those are the chances they took. What the **** gives them the right to break into someone's house and take shit that isn't their's.:shrug:

Thats why from now on since this has been made public... they are going to be armed and dangerous... This is not goign to stop burglars... trust me...
 

Mahoney

Registered User
Forum Member
Dec 10, 2007
261
0
0
I'm surprised at your attitude, Jack. I think most people would like to have a guy like this for a neighbor. Many neighbors would have simply looked the other way. Relying on cops to do everything makes men into mice. The cops have no positive duty to defend citizens or their property, that's a fact. Cops show up after a crime has been committed and take semi-literate notes.

If Citizen Horn hadn't dispatched these two, they'd probably be out on bail and back in Mexico by now. No doubt these criminals have done this kind of thing before and would do it again. Now they're dead. Good.
 

MadJack

Administrator
Staff member
Forum Admin
Super Moderators
Channel Owner
Jul 13, 1999
105,370
1,688
113
70
home
I'm surprised at your attitude, Jack. I think most people would like to have a guy like this for a neighbor. Many neighbors would have simply looked the other way. Relying on cops to do everything makes men into mice. The cops have no positive duty to defend citizens or their property, that's a fact. Cops show up after a crime has been committed and take semi-literate notes.

If Citizen Horn hadn't dispatched these two, they'd probably be out on bail and back in Mexico by now. No doubt these criminals have done this kind of thing before and would do it again. Now they're dead. Good.
i don't think people should be permitted to take the law into their own hands. suppose it was friends or family that needed something out of the house and had permission but no keys? suppose he shot kids selling candy? suppose he would have shot a plain clothes cop by mistake, an innocent bystander? what would have happened then? he hardly even knew his neighbors. he's not trained to make decisions like he did. **** that guy!
 

SixFive

bonswa
Forum Member
Mar 12, 2001
18,744
245
63
54
BG, KY, USA
I think you corrected your post already, Justin, but I beleive in Texas deadly force can be used to protect property.

I'm ok with what this guy did IF he was worried for his safety/attacked/a move made toward him. That can't be proved or disproved from the 911 call, so I'm sure he'll get off without being prosecuted. I've read these guys were shot in the back. I'm having a problem with Mr. Horn if that is true.
 

Mahoney

Registered User
Forum Member
Dec 10, 2007
261
0
0
i don't think people should be permitted to take the law into their own hands.

That's the thing. He didn't. He acted within the law.

suppose it was friends or family that needed something out of the house and had permission but no keys? suppose he shot kids selling candy? suppose he would have shot a plain clothes cop by mistake, an innocent bystander? what would have happened then? he hardly even knew his neighbors. he's not trained to make decisions like he did. **** that guy!

I'm surprised you feel that way. I haven't seen anything that shows any doubt on anyone's part that this was exactly what it appeared to be, a robbery. This guy was known for being a good guy, he's not going to whip a gun on some kids. He doesn't seem like a hothead.
 

MadJack

Administrator
Staff member
Forum Admin
Super Moderators
Channel Owner
Jul 13, 1999
105,370
1,688
113
70
home
I haven't seen anything that shows any doubt on anyone's part that this was exactly what it appeared to be, a robbery. This guy was known for being a good guy, he's not going to whip a gun on some kids. He doesn't seem like a hothead.

maybe so in THIS case but you can't give everybody the green light to go shooting people :mj07:

and they haven't determined if he acted within the law yet.
 
Bet on MyBookie
Top