3000-facts

AR182

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And if they are in favor of a policy they twist stories to suit their beliefs. It's always been that way - it's not just something that started in the Vietnam era.


this is definitely not true...

the media with-held jfk's affairs out of respect for his privacy......& look what the media did to clinton.

the media with-held some reporting of ww2 because of their beliefs of country before sensationalism....

i could go on & on with examples of how the media changed after nam & water-gate.
 

smurphy

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in that war, as in this war the suits in washington lost the nam war & is losing this war....

and yes...i think both wars would have different outcomes if the media wasn't involved.

I'm trying to nail you down to an answer, but you're getting kinda slippery. It seems that you are contradicting yourself a little bit with these statements. You say first that the leaders are to blame for Vietnam as well as Iraq, but then you say the outcome would have been different if we had no media reports.

I'm trying to find out from you if you think we would have won Vietnam without the media supposedly mucking things up. Did they make the difference between victory and defeat or was it our war to lose regardless, because of poor planning, poor strategy, etc?
 

AR182

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yes...i believe the media played & is playing a very large part on how the wars are fought...

we all should know that war is not pretty....by showing graphic pictures that all normal people find objectionable,the public gets very upset by these & the suits in wash. take note of this (afraid of losing votes) & tell the field generals to fight differently.

now compare this to how the media covered ww 2...if graphic stories or pictures (they weren't) were shown to the american public during this war....the reaction would have been the same as the above....

a good example of how the media covered ww2 is in the eastwood movie..."flags of our father".

go see that movie & you will notice the difference of how the media covered these wars....
 

smurphy

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Do you believe we would have won the Vietnam conflict if not for the media? You are answring like a true politician, AR. I just want a yes/no answer - not these vague "it affected the way we fight" answers. Do you think we would have won?

I'm not going to get into the WW2 arguments and comparisons. I've made my position very clear on how there is absolutely no reasonable comparisons in any way.
 
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DOGS THAT BARK

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Do you believe we would have won the Vietnam conflict if not for the media?
+++++++++++++++++++++++
without a doubt--do I have to post AGAIN that ourtroops-the north vietnemese-and south vietnemese casualities rates were down dramatically when we were forced to pull out?
U.S. troops kia 1968 >14,594 and declined ever year there after
U'S troops kia 1972> 300
Look at year to year reduction--
http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html
--then tell me how the media and fanny packers didn't snatch defeat out of jaws of vicyory--and were directly responsible for slaugter of over a million vienemese and cambodians in the year that followed.--and sickest part is they think it was their greatest achievement.

back to initial issue--If anyone can't tell slant media has had on this war--no use discussing with them.
Where would you get the real scoop--how about from the soilders themselves--look at # of volunteering for multiple tours then to inlistment/reinlistment rates.

How many articles or post have you read about minorities taking the brunt of this war--the facts above would indicate just the opposite.

Look at troop response to those that visit Iraq--remember Hilliary's visit??

bottom line- Liberals can't carry picket signs and angerly oppose troop recruitment in schools and flip sign over next day with 3000 deaths and tears--and expect any logical thinking person to take them serious.
 

JCDunkDogs

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What we really could have used in 1968 is FOX NEWS! Too bad Rupert Murdock and Roger Ailes weren't there in those days...We might have won that war.
 

Chadman

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Where would you get the real scoop--how about from the soilders themselves--look at # of volunteering for multiple tours then to inlistment/reinlistment rates.
-------------------------------------------

bottom line- Liberals can't carry picket signs and angerly oppose troop recruitment in schools and flip sign over next day with 3000 deaths and tears--and expect any logical thinking person to take them serious.

Two questions, more or less...first, being ignorant of pay/benefits for the military, I'm wondering if the pay and benefits are better for volunteering for multiple tours in Iraq (or elsewhere that is "hot" or if it stays the same at all times, no matter what you do or where you are? Maybe someone has that info, I would be interested to know.

Second, what is the point you are making with your last paragraph, Wayne? Why can't a liberal - or any person for that matter - oppose troop recruitment on a campus and then also oppose the war in Iraq? Seems to me, the message can be very much the same. I'm not saying the viewpoints are correct, right, whatever, just trying to understand your point.
 

smurphy

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So what is the solution to this quandry then? Is it to not report casualties? Should those numbers be kept from the public? You guys are complaining, but kinda like with Iraq itself - what is your goal? What do you want? Do you want to silence the media ...or maybe just silence the media that you don't like? Should we have state-run media? That would certainly solve any anti-war bias. Just tell us what you want.
 

AR182

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So what is the solution to this quandry then? Is it to not report casualties? Should those numbers be kept from the public? You guys are complaining, but kinda like with Iraq itself - what is your goal? What do you want? Do you want to silence the media ...or maybe just silence the media that you don't like? Should we have state-run media? That would certainly solve any anti-war bias. Just tell us what you want.

i want you to stop asking questions....
 

smurphy

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Do you believe we would have won the Vietnam conflict if not for the media?
+++++++++++++++++++++++
without a doubt--do I have to post AGAIN that ourtroops-the north vietnemese-and south vietnemese casualities rates were down dramatically when we were forced to pull out?
U.S. troops kia 1968 >14,594 and declined ever year there after
U'S troops kia 1972> 300
Look at year to year reduction--
http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html
--then tell me how the media and fanny packers didn't snatch defeat out of jaws of vicyory--and were directly responsible for slaugter of over a million vienemese and cambodians in the year that followed.--and sickest part is they think it was their greatest achievement.
.
Just to get a few numbers in order. I know nothing changes your mind, but something should be clear - for the record. In 1972, we had about 500,000 fewer troops in Nam than in 1968. 536,000 compared to 24,200 at years end. That's about a 22-1 ratio. Deaths in those years were 16,500 to 550, or about a 32-1 ratio. I guess you could say that's aslight improvement. Then again, you picked the absolute worst year for us and displayed it as the example of how things were going. 1967, for example, had nearly a 50% better survival rate for us than 1968.
 

smurphy

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i want you to stop asking questions....
i'll stop asking what you want when you guys stop bitching about the media. you guys are like liberals - always whining but never really offering solutions.
 

AR182

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i'll stop asking what you want when you guys stop bitching about the media. you guys are like liberals - always whining but never really offering solutions.

i'm not whining....just giving my opinion.

and my solution to the mess in iraq, is something i have been saying for some time now....more troops....i believe when a country goes to war they enter the war with overwhelming force (which i believe would have meant less casualties).... & seal the borders of iraq which should have been done from the start.
 

smurphy

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i'm not whining....just giving my opinion.

and my solution to the mess in iraq, is something i have been saying for some time now....more troops....i believe when a country goes to war they enter the war with overwhelming force (which i believe would have meant less casualties).... & seal the borders of iraq which should have been done from the start.

I agree with your general premise that when we go to war, we go to win. Which is why 1 war at a time is pretty much all any society can handle.

AR, what is our objective in Iraq at this point? (sorry, another question)
 

djv

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Not sure how we just blame media. Our leaders are as much the blame for poor planing. They either new we would be stuck as we are with a civil war. Or just didn't care to listen to history. And trying to stick the out come on liberal is nuts. We don't know out come. We know if Pres asks for more troops it's not going so good. Last month 113 dead was not right direction. More so the 412 injured sure is wrong way to go. That's over 21000 injured, many left with out arms or legs. I guess if folks feel Americans should not be told this. It's there right to think that way. But it is the rights of others to know. So we should have freedom of information or we should not? WWII the amount of info available was there. But we had not entered a information age as we have now, back then. I would think the reasons for fighting WWII out way any reason for invading Iraq.
Afghanistan yes we should have been there and better stay till done. And yes most Americans believe Afghanistan was necessary. And media said that.
 

StevieD

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Don't ever forget that the media was also in favor of the Invasion of Iraq. Many, took the President at his word. Now, we are stuck fighting the war the enemy wants us to fight. It is sickening to think that the people who got us into this mess are still in charge.
 

redsfann

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The idea the "media" was responsible for the US losing the war in Vietnam or when we lose the Iraq War is a laughable joke.
Since DTB loves his links, here is one that quotes one of his Neocon pals at the end of the article, Norman Podhorentz.

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/96winter/record.htm


good stuff, here as well...

The bell weather of the cautious establishment press, Bob Woodward, has finally unloaded both barrels on the Bush administration?s Iraq policy, in his new book, State of Denial. The media hoopla surrounding the book has focused mainly on the administration?s deceptions surrounding the sorry state of affairs in Iraq and Andrew Card?s attempts, with the apparent blessing of Laura Bush, to get Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld fired. Neither of these facts is surprising. The real surprise in Woodward?s book has received less attention: The Bush administration?s main advisor during the war has been Henry Kissinger.

Kissinger, according to Woodward?s book, apparently has convinced the Bush White House that any troop withdrawals from Iraq will start a wave of public pressure to pull out all U.S. forces from Iraq. He is probably right in this analysis. But Kissinger missed the main lesson of Vietnam and is now missing it in Iraq. As the U.S. generals in Iraq know, killing more Sunni insurgents and Shi?ite militiamen than the United States loses of its own troops will not win a war that is fundamentally political. As Lieutenant General William Odom (Ret.), former Director of the National Security Agency and opponent of the war, has noted, the Iraq situation will continue to deteriorate and the United States will eventually be forced to withdraw from Iraq. So withdrawing sooner, rather than later, according to Odom, will save U.S. lives and money and salvage what international prestige the United States has left. If Nixon and Kissinger had followed similar advice in Vietnam, the United States, its military, and its international standing would not have been tarnished by four additional years of war. And even worse than Vietnam, continued U.S. occupation of Iraq is fueling and worsening the Islamic terrorist threat to the United States, according to an estimate from Bush?s own intelligence agencies.

Most amazingly, Woodward?s book indicates that General John Abizaid, the current chief of the U.S. military command that supervises the Iraq war, told U.S. Representative John Murtha, a decorated former Marine who advocates rapid U.S. withdrawal from Iraq, that he was very close to agreement with the congressman?s position. When the commander in charge of the Iraq war believes that U.S. forces should be rapidly withdrawn from that country, that fact should be big news. But sadly it isn?t.

Consulting Kissinger on how to successfully ?win? a counterinsurgency is like getting advice from Mel Gibson on public relations. Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger came into office in 1969 vowing to get the United States out of Vietnam, while achieving ?peace with honor.? Four years and 22,000 American casualties later, Nixon and Kissinger settled for a face-saving peace settlement that they could have obtained shortly after they took office. The final agreement merely provided a ?decent interval? between U.S. troop withdrawal and the fall of the South Vietnamese regime to the communists.

Yet Kissinger?s version of these events is that by 1972, the United States had virtually won the Vietnam War, but Congress and the American people wimped out and snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory. Although the U.S. bombing of North Vietnam in the Linebacker II air offensive of 1972 and threats of using nuclear weapons probably led the North Vietnamese to negotiate more seriously, Kissinger?s argument that the United States had ?won? the war is a fantasy. No one on either side of the ensuing negotiations believed that the North Vietnamese were going to honor the Paris Peace Accord after the United States left. Even if one believes that the United States had won the war militarily, an effective counterinsurgency campaign also requires winning politically. Because the North Vietnamese were fighting for their own country and the United States was merely fighting in some faraway jungle, the North Vietnamese were prepared to take horrendous casualties to wait out the Americans. As late as 1972, Nixon and Kissinger had a majority of popular support for the heavy Linebacker II offensive, and they, not the public, were the ones who were attempting to pressure the North Vietnamese to give them a ?for show? peace deal that was a mere fig leaf. If the United States was winning the war, one should ask why Nixon and Kissinger were so eager to salvage any honor that the United States had left. In 1972, even Kissinger himself clearly wanted to end the war.

Even if the Congress and the American people were to blame for the loss of the Vietnam War, as Kissinger contends, politicians should take into account that democracies will not allow an indefinite waste of lives and money to win a war that has little to do with national security. And the Bush administration, after the Vietnam experience, should have known that the public tires quickly of such unneeded military adventures.
 
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DOGS THAT BARK

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Chad: I didn't say they couldn't be against military and war--but being against military in schools and shedding crocidile tears on casuaties is diff story.

Smurph: You forgot to add your #'s are correct only effected August of 72.
Lets me put it up once again in order and see if you can see any pattern in all your infinite wisdom.--I assume it will be like last time--silence--untill next time and I have to put them up again.
Year- U.S fatalties-
1968 14,590-
1969 9,414
1970 4,221
1971 1,380
1972 300

Now spin those #'s and tell us how the protestors and the media got things under control--and for whom?


Redsfan Per your
"The idea the "media" was responsible for the US losing the war in Vietnam or when we lose the Iraq War is a laughable joke."

With all due respect--unfortunately those that served in either war fail to find any humor nor think it is much of joke--We always look forward to those that never served telling us how it was.

A favor please--read the book by head of North vietnamese army-General Vo Nguyen Giap
"How We Won the War"
--and report back with what you find.

I'll give you a hint-- UBL has read it and has quoted from it many times--and you will find out why if you read it--

The bottom line our military had no chance of being defeated by North Vietnam nor has Al-Quada--We are too strong and too courageous--their only hope stems from our weaker element--and together they can over come our military--do I need to explain?
 
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