a quick poll--need some input

[The Judge]

PT, I posted the article by Tom Wilkinson because as I stated, it is one of the best explanations for LAYMEN that I have seen on this subject. As I stated in one of the posts that I linked to above:

I am a practicing structural engineer with 28 years experience and throughout my career, I have been involved primarily in the design of high-rise buildings so as you can imagine, I was and remain extremely interested in the collapse of these buildings. As a result, I have read literally dozens of papers on this subject in engineering journals from all over the world and I have not seen a single credible source that has disputed the finding that the buildings collapsed due to the heat induced weakening and subsequent failure of the structural frame.

Your statement that ?there are hundreds of engineers? that disagree with this conclusion is blatantly false. Certainly there are those whose motive is to perpetuate the conspiracy theories that you have apparently fallen for and to them I have a simple question.

Why, or for that matter how, would anyone prepare these buildings for implosion to exactly coincide with the impact of two separate 787 airliners crashing into them and why would this even be necessary?

I can assure you that my training and professional experience qualifies me to state that the heat generated by the jet fuel in these crashes was more than enough to sufficiently weaken the steel frame to the point that the columns yielded and buckled, rendering them incapable of supporting the collateral load of the floors above. When bare steel reaches temperatures of 1,000 degrees Celsius, it softens and its strength is reduced to roughly 10% of its room temperature value.

I am not in the mood to argue about this topic but I encourage you to read all three of the posts that I provided links to. I can assure you that I am in fact an expert on the behavior of steel framed buildings and I am convinced that the building reacted exactly as they were expected to by those that plotted this horrific crime.

 

[marine]

pt,

The following write up (below) is what I liken the arguement of the government producing a massive cover up and scandal, plotting the demise of its own citizens and landmark structures.

To sum up, you can make all the great assumptions you want, and state things how YOU WANT THEM, and make it believable enough that people will believe it (or at least question the status quo on what is percieved to be standard knowledge). This article has it all.. a longstanding accepted belief, a citing of a subject matter expert, and just enough truth mixed in with manipulations of text and wordsmithing to be considered truth.

For years it has been believed that electric bulbs emitted light. However,
recent information from Bell Labs has proven otherwise. Electric bulbs
don't emit light, they suck dark. Thus they now call these bulbs dark
suckers. The dark sucker theory, according to a Bell Labs spokesperson,
proves the existence of dark, that dark has mass heavier than that of
light, and that dark is faster than light.

The basis of the dark sucker theory is that electric bulbs suck dark. Take
for example, the dark suckers in the room where you are. There is less dark
right next to them than there is elsewhere. The larger the dark sucker, the
greater its capacity to suck dark. Dark suckers in a parking lot have a
much greater capacity than the ones in this room. As with all things, dark
suckers don't last forever. Once they are full of dark, they can no longer
suck. This is proven by the black spot on a full dark sucker. A candle is a
primitive dark sucker. lA new candle has a white wick. You will notice that
after the first use, the wick turns black, representing all the dark which
has been sucked into it. If you hold a pencil next to the wick of an
operating candle, the tip will turn black because it got in the path of the
dark flowing into the candle.

Unfortunately, these primitive dark suckers have a very limited range.
There are also portable dark suckers. The bulbs in these can't handle all
of the dark by themselves, and must be aided by a dark storage unit. When
the dark storage unit is full, it must be either emptied or replaced before
the portable dark sucker can operate again.

Dark has mass. When dark goes into a dark sucker, friction from this mass
generates heat. Thus it is not wise to touch an operating dark sucker.
Candles present a special problem, as the dark must travel in the solid
wick instead of through glass. This generates a great amount of heat. Thus
it can be very dangerous to touch an operating candle. Dark is also heavier
than light. If you swim deeper and deeper, you notice it gets slowly darker
and darker. When you reach a depth of approximately fifty feet, you are in
total darkness. This is because the heavier dark sinks to the bottom of the
lake and the lighter light floats to the top. The immense power of dark can
be utilized to mans advantage. We can collect the dark that has settled to
the bottom of lakes and push it through turbines, which generate
electricity and help push it to the ocean where it may be safely stored.
Prior to turbines, it was much more difficult to get dark from the rivers
and lakes to the ocean. The Indians recognized this problem, and tried to
solve it. When on a river in a canoe travelling in the same direction as
the flow of the dark, they paddled slowly, so as not to stop the flow of
dark, but when they traveled against the flow of dark, they paddled quickly
so as to help push the dark along its way.

Finally, we must prove that dark is faster than light. If you were to stand
in an illuminated room in front of a closed, dark closet, then slowly open
the closet door, you would see the light slowly enter the closet, but since
the dark is so fast, you would not be able to see the dark leave the
closet.

In conclusion, Bell Labs stated that dark suckers make all our lives much
easier. So the next time you look at an electric bulb remember that it is
indeed a dark sucker.

 

[SixFive]

pt1guard, I thought you were a teacher? How do you post on here during school hours? :shrug:

It should tell you something when The Sponge is in the most agreement with you on this subject.

This is also very telling to me (sorry for your loss flapjack)...

Don't know why I bother, since the phsycology, etc, etc will not allow acceptance of reality, but...

My aunt, Barbara Keating was on that flight. Her sons refused the 9-11 Fund on the grounds that accepting it absolves the airlines, gov, etc from lawsuits.

This article is compete garbage and a slap in the face to anyone who lost loved ones on those hi-jacked planes.

 

[The Sponge]

pt1guard, I thought you were a teacher? How do you post on here during school hours? :shrug:

It should tell you something when The Sponge is in the most agreement with you on this subject.

This is also very telling to me (sorry for your loss flapjack)...

Please save it. When were you ever right about anything? How is that president doing you voted for in the last two elections? Basically sums up how truly gullible you are. You are one of the easiest saps for deception.

 

[SixFive]

Please save it. When were you ever right about anything? How is that president doing you voted for in the last two elections? Basically sums up how truly gullible you are. You are one of the easiest saps for deception.

I'm gullible, and you believe in the 911 conspiracy bs??? That's laughable.

 

[The Sponge]

I'm gullible, and you believe in the 911 conspiracy bs??? That's laughable.

I believe in open debate and not shutting someone down because you have been condition to think words like "conspiracy theorists" are the boogey mans words. These words are shaped for naive people like you, so you can run with them. What they are, are words to stifle the debate. All Pt is doing here is having a simple debate and bringing up points. All you are doing is throwing around the dreaded "conspiracy word" and then running like a little school girl. The way you vote just shows what a close minded individual you truly are. An easy sap for deception.
What i did on that nba board and then people still sit there in denial for what i said, what I accomplished with my thoughts, and then to back it up an NBA official gets pinched to boot, it just shows me how hard headed some of you really are. (not everyone)

 

[pt1gard]

sponge,

get my email from jack, if you would, id like to ask you something off the board ...

6'5,

i dont know where you get your facts, i dont want to insult you, but it has never been stated by me anyhow that im a teacher ... i coach hs basketball and dont teach ... and a conspiracy to me is some guys with boxcutters who cant fly and with expired passports get NORAD to stand down and then fly into the most fortified building in the world and then all the cameras get confiscated and we dont get to test rubble or see the debris which was scooped up before any crime scene could be established ... then the 911 commision is puppetered by connie rice's crony and at an initial funding cost of 3 million while we spent 100 million for monica's blowjob ... then osama bin laden goes from the man we most want--bush later said we dont even care about him--to not even ever charged by the fbi for 911 as he slips thru our mitts time and time again ... now which one seems more logical:shrug:


judge,

in the most sincere state of mind, i would be curious if you thought not testing any of the steel and rubble of the wtcs would prove or not if there were explosions involved--i mean you offer your expertise but dont seem to want to enlighten upon that ... also is it true or not the way the columns were left in the pictures ive seen show theyd been blown apart or not, or is that the state they would be in on a free fall, ive heard theyd have all been left standing much higher ...

have you seen other highly regarded demolotion experts say that wtc 7 def. went down through human planning, whats your take there ... is the fact that the towers almost appeared to explode as they begin to collapse, so much dust pouring out, would there be that much powdered debris at the bottom--many of the reports ive read said they couldnt find chairs, computers, etc, all turned to fine dust ...

in saying you are an expert in steel structured buildings, how can the steel be so quickly weakened when everyone agrees most of the fuel, esp. in south tower, burned outside the building and the rest burned less than ten minutes; and Underwriters Labratories had certified the WTC steel at 2000 degrees burning for 3 hours, most everyone agrees that the temps since the smoke turned black right away showing no oxygen that it was closer to 500, 2300 less than what it takes to melt steel, which was ultimately found molten at the base ...

the seismic activity spiked BEFORE the towers went down and barely registered as the buildings hit the ground, how is that possible .... and finally what do you make of all the reported explosions by gag ruled firemen and police ... does a collapsing building sound like TNT goes off up to nine times ...

and this is off that exact line of thought but what do you think of mohammad atta's passport being found on a manhattan sidewalk, but according to records, he didnt appear to have ever boarded flight 11.

thanks
gregg

 

[pt1gard]

another thought provoking video for the open minded

another thought provoking video for the open minded

http://www.911docs.net/911_and_the_british_broadcasting_conspiracy.htm

 

[pt1gard]

seismic data and molten steel

seismic data and molten steel

New Seismic Data Refutes
Official WTC Explanation
American Free Press


Two unexplained "spikes" in the seismic record from Sept. 11 indicate huge bursts of energy shook the ground beneath the World Trade Center's twin towers immediately prior to the collapse.
American Free Press has learned of pools of "molten steel" found at the base of the collapsed twin towers weeks after the collapse. Although the energy source for these incredibly hot areas has yet to be explained, New York seismometers recorded huge bursts of energy, which caused unexplained seismic "spikes" at the beginning of each collapse.

These spikes suggest that massive underground explosions may have literally knocked the towers off their foundations, causing them to collapse.

In the basements of the collapsed towers, where the 47 central support columns connected with the bedrock, hot spots of "literally molten steel" were discovered more than a month after the collapse. Such persistent and intense residual heat, 70 feet below the surface, in an oxygen starved environment, could explain how these crucial structural supports failed.

Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction of Flushing, N.Y., told AFP that he saw pools of "literally molten steel" at the World Trade Center.

Tully was contracted after the Sept. 11 tragedy to re move the debris from the site.

Tully called Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. (CDI) of Phoenix, Md., for consultation about removing the debris. CDI calls itself "the innovator and global leader in the controlled demolition and implosion of structures."

Loizeaux, who cleaned up the bombed Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, arrived at the WTC site two days later and wrote the clean-up plan for the entire operation.

AFP asked Loizeaux about the report of molten steel on the site.

"Yes," he said, "hot spots of molten steel in the basements."

These incredibly hot areas were found "at the bottoms of the elevator shafts of the main towers, down seven [basement] levels," Loizeaux said.

The molten steel was found "three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed," Loizeaux said. He said molten steel was also found at 7 WTC, which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon.

Construction steel has an extremely high melting point of about 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit.

Asked what could have caused such extreme heat, Tully said, "Think of the jet fuel."

Loizeaux told AFP that the steel-melting fires were fueled by "paper, carpet and other combustibles packed down the elevator shafts by the tower floors as they 'pancaked' into the basement."

However, some independent investigators dispute this claim, saying kerosene-based jet fuel, paper, or the other combustibles normally found in the towers, cannot generate the heat required to melt steel, especially in an oxygen-poor environment like a deep basement.

Eric Hufschmid, author of a book about the WTC collapse, Painful Questions,* told AFP that due to the lack of oxygen, paper and other combustibles packed down at the bottom of elevator shafts would probably be "a smoky smoldering pile."

Experts disagree that jet-fuel or paper could generate such heat.

This is impossible, they say, because the maximum temperature that can be reached by hydrocarbons like jet-fuel burning in air is 1,520 degrees F. Because the WTC fires were fuel rich, as evidenced by the thick black smoke, it is argued that they did not reach this upper limit.

The hottest spots at the surface of the rubble, where abundant oxygen was available, were much cooler than the molten steel found in the basements.

Five days after the collapse, on Sept. 16, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) used an Airborne Visible/Infrared Imaging Spectrometer (AVIRIS) to locate and measure the site's hot spots.

Dozens of hot spots were mapped, the hottest being in the east corner of the South Tower where a temperature of 1,377 degrees F was recorded.

This is, however, less than half as hot at the molten steel in the basement.

The foundations of the twin towers were 70 feet deep. At that level, 47 huge box columns, connected to the bedrock, supported the entire gravity load of the structures. The steel walls of these lower box columns were four inches thick.

Videos of the North Tower collapse show its communication mast falling first, indicating that the central support columns must have failed at the very beginning of the collapse. Loizeaux told AFP, "Everything went simultaneously."

"At 10:29 the entire top section of the North Tower had been severed from the base and began falling down," Hufschmid writes. "If the first event was the falling of a floor, how did that progress to the severing of hundreds of columns?"

Asked if the vertical support columns gave way before the connections between the floors and the columns, Ron Hamburger, a structural engineer with the FEMA assessment team said, "That's the $64,000 question."

Loizeaux said, "If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure."

SEISMIC 'SPIKES'

Seismographs at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, N.Y., 21 miles north of the WTC, recorded strange seismic activity on Sept. 11 that has still not been explained.

While the aircraft crashes caused minimal earth shaking, significant earthquakes with unusual spikes occurred at the beginning of each collapse.

The Palisades seismic data recorded a 2.1 magnitude earthquake during the 10-second collapse of the South Tower at 9:59:04 and a 2.3 quake during the 8-second collapse of the North Tower at 10:28:31.

However, the Palisades seismic record shows that-as the collapses began-a huge seismic "spike" marked the moment the greatest energy went into the ground. The strongest jolts were all registered at the beginning of the collapses, well before the falling debris struck the Earth.

These unexplained "spikes" in the seismic data lend credence to the theory that massive explosions at the base of the towers caused the collapses.

A "sharp spike of short duration" is how seismologist Thorne Lay of University of California at Santa Cruz told AFP an underground nuclear explosion appears on a seismograph.

The two unexplained spikes are more than 20 times the amplitude of the other seismic waves associated with the collapses and occurred in the East-West seismic recording as the buildings began to fall.

Experts cannot explain why the seismic waves peaked before the towers actually hit the ground.

Asked about these spikes, seismologist Arthur Lerner-Lam, director of Columbia University's Center for Hazards and Risk Research told AFP, "This is an element of current research and discussion. It is still being investigated."

Lerner-Lam told AFP that a 10-fold increase in wave amplitude indicates a 100-fold increase in energy released. These "short-period surface waves," reflect "the interaction between the ground and the building foundation," according to a report from Columbia Earth Institute.

"The seismic effects of the collapses are comparable to the explosions at a gasoline tank farm near Newark on Jan. 7, 1983," the Palisades Seismology Group reported on Sept. 14, 2001.

One of the seismologists, Won-Young Kim, told AFP that the Palisades seismographs register daily underground explosions from a quarry 20 miles away.

These blasts are caused by 80,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate and cause local earthquakes between Magnitude 1 and 2. Kim said the 1993 truck-bomb at the WTC did not register on the seismographs because it was "not coupled" to the ground.

"Only a small fraction of the energy from the collapsing towers was converted into ground motion," Lerner-Lam said. "The ground shaking that resulted from the collapse of the towers was extremely small."

Last November, Lerner-Lam said: "During the collapse, most of the energy of the falling debris was absorbed by the towers and the neighboring structures, converting them into rubble and dust or causing other damage-but not causing significant ground shaking."

Evidently, the energy source that shook the ground beneath the towers was many times more powerful than the total potential energy released by the falling mass of the towers. The question is: What was that energy source?

While steel is often tested for evidence of explosions, despite numerous eyewitness reports of explosions in the towers, the engineers involved in the FEMA-sponsored building assessment did no such tests.

Dr. W. Gene Corley, who investigated for the government the cause of the fire at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco and the Oklahoma City bombing, headed the FEMA-sponsored engineering assessment of the WTC collapse.

Corley told AFP that while some tests had been done on the 80 pieces of steel saved from the site, he said he did not know about tests that show if an explosion had affected the steel.

"I am not a metallurgist," Corley said.

Much of the structural steel from the WTC was sold to Alan D. Ratner of Metal Management of Newark, N.J., and the New York-based company Hugo Neu Schnitzer East.

Ratner, who heads the New Jersey branch of the Chi ca go-based company, sold the WTC steel to overseas companies, reportedly selling more than 50,000 tons of steel to a Shanghai steel company known as Baosteel for $120 per ton. Ratner paid about $70 per ton for the steel.

Other shipments of steel from the WTC went to India and other Asian ports.

Ratner came to Metal Management after spending years with a metal trading firm known as SimsMetal based out of Sydney, Australia.

 

[SixFive]

so, ptguard, you're like a parapro? That's good to know.

Everything that you have posted has been easily refuted.

sponge, please don't even try to compare the tragedy of 911 and theories of USA government involvement with a one crooked NBA ref fixing games. That's really sad. I've believed for years that there was fishy stuff going on in sports, and it's no shocker to me that guys are fixing games. There are several instances of that actually proven, so it's certainly not a "conspiracy theory", nor is it hard to believe.

sponge, I also believe in open debate, but the challenger or person who is proposing outlandish things has to bring something to the table, or it's not even a debate.

 

[pt1gard]

6'5 who has disproven everything i have posted ...

did the popular mechanics book disprove everything, or the kean commision, which answered only selected questions and wont even address a single point on the wtc 7----6'5, did you know that the bbc reported live that wtc 7 collapsed 17 minutes before it ever fell,:scared the reporter can be found all over the Net saying it went down while it stands behind her big as day on screen--tell me, has anyone ever answered that one, hmmmm... if you do believe PM's non backed up conclusions, you better get griffins book DEBUNKING THE DEBUNKERS ...

have you ever read a single book on the subject, i havent heard you answer that ... i find it shallow and self condemning when people say a book is full of lies or garbage when they have never read a paragraph

and do you believe atta's passport twirled to the manhattan sidewalk and then taken to the authorities proving he was on that flight, please just answer that, it will tell us what im dealing with here

please answer the above or dont say all the things i have posted have been disproved, bc, my friend, they havent ... a poll on cnn had 53k voters and 83 per cent said the gov. is not telling the whole truth ... i guess the 17 per cent are the correct ones and the rest are crazies:shrug:

 

[pt1gard]

heres some interesting writing from a book review

heres some interesting writing from a book review

Mohamed Atta loved pork chops, and 49 other things you may not know about the 9/11 Florida connection.

I just finished Daniel Hopsicker's Welcome to Terrorland. He exposes the cover story of the Florida flight schools, and the ongoing cover-up. The whole thing stinks of Iran/Contra and CIA drugs. It's the same, bloody game.

Though his style can be annoyingly breezy, I highly recommend the book. There's original research you won't find anywhere else but here and on his website: http://www.madcowprod.com /.

Here are some archived threads that touch on similar material:

"Jeb Bush seized flight school records at 2 AM on September 12"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"Heroin, Al Qaeda and the Florida Flight School"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

And FYI, here are some notes I kept while reading the book:

1. In Venice Florida, Mohamed Atta lived for two months with an American stripper/lingerie model named Amanda Keller.

2. Atta loved to party. He was out with Keller nearly every night they were together. He was a heavy drinker, snorted coke, was a stylish dresser and wore expensive jewelry.

3. According to Keller, Atta loved pork chops.

4. Keller dumped him after he embarrassed her at a night club by dancing, poorly, atop a speaker ("doing that old 'Roxbury head bob' thing, you know"?)

5. Atta revenged himself later on Keller by returning to the apartment they?d shared and killing her cat and kittens, disemboweling and dismembering them in her apartment for her to find.

6. In Miami, Atta consorted with women known to be linked to the Mafia.

7. Atta?s email list included names of people who worked for defense contractors. One, for instance, worked for Canadian firm Virtual Prototypes, which helped develop the avionics for F-15, F-22 and B-2.

8. Atta was enrolled as a student at the International Officer?s School of Maxwell Airforce Base, and witnesses recall him having been introduced around at an officers' club party.

9. Atta was fluent in at least Arabic, English, German, French and Hebrew.

10. One day when Atta was rummaging through his flight bag, Keller got a look inside. Her words:

"The thing the FBI was most interested in was his pilot bag. They asked about it a lot. He kept it locked, and they wanted to know whether I had ever seen anything in it. I told them yes. One day he opened it briefly, and there were a lot of papers in it, and there was a blue log book in a different language. Mohamed was fluent in almost any language you can think of. He had a kind of Daytimer in there, too. And a folder with all these different ID?s in it. And that?s when I saw one ? because it fell out ? a little blue and white thing the size of a driver?s license. It had his picture on it, and it looked like a mug shot, or a prison shot. And it didn?t look like him, and I asked him, 'Who is this?'

"And he said, 'that?s me.' He told me it had been taken back when he was in some kind of militia-type deal, like a military-type deal, he said. He compared it to our military only they teach you different tactics. He didn?t elaborate.

"He didn?t say where it was from, either. But the writing looked like a cross between Hebrew and Arabic, those frilly little lines. He told me he spoke Hebrew. I said bullshit. So he started speaking it, and I guess he did.

"He told me that he went to different countries and studied. He had pilot?s license from several different countries. But all the pictures looked different. All the names were different. He had a license to fly from just about every country he had been to. He went to pilot?s school in all these countries."

11. Atta, Keller, a stripper named Linda and two Germans, Peter and Johan, partied for three days in Key West. Atta paid for everything. Rented three rooms, one just for the men?s luggage, which Keller says contained drugs. The men had a business meeting the women were not permitted to attend. Met with people, Keller says, who flew in just to meet Atta. Somber and quiet after meeting. (Key West Airport a known drug transit point. The Sheriff used to be under orders to keep the dope sniffing dogs off airplanes, and at one time even sent patrol cars to escort the drugs to Miami.)

12. Atta was already a licensed pilot when he arrived in the US. Licenses from many different countries. He had the privileges of an instructor while he was at Huffman Aviation, and may have helped pilot South American drug runs.

13. The FBI timeline says Atta left Venice Florida in December 2000 after completing his flight training. But he didn?t. Dozens of locals say different ? his landlord, neighbours, cab drivers, restaurant employees and his girlfriend, for a few instances ? and have been told not to talk about it by federal authorities. The FBI publicly sought information regarding Atta?s time in various US locations, but not Venice Florida, where he spent most of his time in the US. Why the intentional misdirection? What are they trying to keep hidden?

14. Under pressure from the FBI, and despite numerous witnesses who had known them together, Keller publicly retracted her story of having lived with Atta, saying he?d been another hijacker named Mohammed, no last name, who seems to have only existed to get Atta out of this story that didn?t fit the official version.

15. Six nights before the attack, at a bar called Shuckums in Ft Lauderdale, Atta and two companions got drunk. The FBI showed up at the bar just 12 hours after the attack with pictures of two of them, one Atta, saying only ?they were on the plane and passed away.? Manager Tony Amos and bartender Patricia Idrissi identified both. Manager Amos said they?d gotten "wasted," Atta drank Stoli vodka for three straight hours. Atta blasphemed: "F*ck God!" he?s said to have cursed.

16. The witnesses then retracted the story of Atta being drunk. They now said he?d only drank cranberry juice the entire evening. Both Amos and Idrissi have gone, no one knows where, but the current bartender says she believes their leaving was somehow 9/11 related.

17. Fourteen of the 9/11 hijackers made Florida their base of operation, and clustered around two flight schools. What is it about Florida, and these flight schools, that drew them?

18. Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi paid $28,000 each to Rudi Dekkers? Huffman Aviation for flight instruction that, the chief instructor of a neighbouring school said, was available at dozens of other nearby locations for a fraction of the price. Why did they pay an inflated price to Dekkers?

19. Dekkers? and his financier, Wally Hilliard, purchased the flight school just months before Atta and the other hijackers began arriving. Before their purchase, the flight school catered to largely American students. After, student body became 80% foreign, mostly Middle Eastern. Yeslam bin Laden, Osama?s brother, sent students there for his business.

20. Atta also "trained" for a time at Arne Kruithof's Florida Flight Training Center, a block away from Huffman Aviation. Amanda Keller says it is where he would go to replenish his cocaine stash.

21. Though Dutchmen Dekkers and Kruithof claimed they had not known each other before each coincidently purchased flight training schools in Venice shortly before terrorists began arriving for training, witnesses claim the two had known each other well for years before.

22. Wally Hilliard is a supposedly-retired, born again insurance executive from the Midwest (motto for his insurance company had been "Hate Sin, Fight Communism, Back the Pack!"), who upon arriving in Florida entered into aviation businesses with an assortment of criminal and covert intelligence elements.

23. Dekkers and Hilliard had not been in the flight school business before they made the purchase. They paid an inflated price for the school, and did no due diligence before the purchase. They lost millions, but this was apparently not a problem. Charlie Voss, former employee of Dekkers and an Iran/Contra pilot who?d also flown "Northern Alliance guys" in Afghanistan in the 1980s, and who had given Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi a place to stay for a few weeks when they first arrived in Venice Florida: "Rudi?s greedy, and when you?re greedy you can be used for something.... When something doesn?t make obvious business sense, sometimes it?s because things are being done for another reason that doesn?t have a lot to do with dollars and cents. His business did not add up."

24. Dekkers went from broke to flush very quickly, without having business success with the flight school. One observer said ?He didn?t even have the money to buy gas for an airplane? and yet a year later he shows up and plops a million seven, a million eight or two million dollars on the table as if it were paper money.?

25. The deputy in charge of Venice Fl airport security: "Wally and Rudi never talk inside a building, they go out to an airplane and talk inside the plane."

26. Dekkers? claimed he had very little interaction with Atta, and that he never saw him again after December 2000. But numerous witnesses in Venice claim Dekkers and Atta were close, and were seen at a restaurant together just two weeks before the attack.

27. Hilliard denied knowing Atta. Keller recalled, on a visit to the airport, having Hilliard ask her, "What?s a nice girl like you doing with a guy like Mohamed?"

28. Before the attack, Dekkers was having trouble paying rent on flight school. It was so bad, it was a story in the Venice paper when he paid rent. One month before attack, he stopped having trouble. Since attack, every aviation concern at Venice airport has been late at least once with their monthly rent, except for Dekkers?.

29. Both the DEA and US Customs had been interested in Dekkers as far back as 1993. He was suspected of smuggling drugs and computer chips.

30. Less than three weeks after Atta and Marwan Al-Shehi began flying lessons at Huffman Aviation, a Lear jet owned by its financier, Wally Hilliard, carrying 43 pounds of heroin was seized by the DEA. Authorities called it the biggest seizure of heroin ever in central Florida.

31. The passengers, Venezuelan nationals, were arrested, but the pilot wasn?t charged, said a DEA spokesman, "because of lack of evidence." This, despite the fact the pilot, Diego Levine-Texar, ignored agents demands that he drop his cell phone, which had to be pried from his hand at gunpoint. Affidavit of the DEA agent: "Based on my experience I know that narcotics traffickers maintain frequent contact with one another while transporting narcotics? I believe Levine-Texar attempted to contact other accomplices as to the presence of agents and other law enforcement officials." Information about Levine-Texar is considered "sensitive."

32. But the DEA refused to return the plane to Hilliard. It was auctioned off. DEA said they had "reasons." Unusual for a so-called "innocent man" to be denied the return of his possession, or compensation.

33. After Hilliard lost his plane to the DEA auction, he was loaned a plane worth $2 million for just one dollar by Truman Arnold, former chief fundraiser for the Democratic Party, who figured in the Whitewater investigation.

34. John Villada, an aviation executive in Naples Florida: "After Wally?s plane was impounded with the heroin and his pilots had machine guns stuck in their faces, the DEA came to visit our maintenance facility and Wally shouted out to me ? right in front of the DEA guy ? 'Make sure all the heroin and cocaine gets hidden!'" Hilliard's mock warning seemed to show the DEA how little he thought of them, and how well he was protected.

35. The paperwork showed the same plane had made approximately 30 weekly round trips to Venezuela with the same passengers, and they always paid cash. ?They obviously weren?t even bothering to hide what they were doing,? said one observer.

36. Hilliard had got his Lear jet from World Jet Inc, owned by drug smuggling brothers Don and Bill Whittington, who had supplied the plane to CIA drug smuggler Barry Seal.

37. The Sarasota County Drug interdiction people were told that Dekkers and Hilliard had a green light to operation and that they were to stay away from them, that they... may have had some type of government protection. And the local Venice Police Department were also warned to leave them alone.

38. A former Huffman executive, speaking about the hijackers: "Early on I gleaned that these guys had government protection. They were let into this country for a specific purpose. It was a business deal."

39. The FBI visited the home of this executive just four hours after the attacks. The purpose has been not to investigate, but to intimidate him into silence. The man says his phones were bugged, and thinks pilots were "double agents." He quit the flight school fearing for his life, and claims he knows too much about Wally Hillier, saying he "has a family to think about."

40. Jeb accompanied the FBI when they removed the flight school records on the early morning of September 12, and flew them to Washington.

41. Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris have flown and endorsed Hilliard?s air carrier.

42. In the days following 9/11, a number of Saudis fled the country from Florida after the attacks. They flew on Wally Hillier?s charter aircraft to private fields of military contractor Raytheon, and departed on a 747.

43. After the attacks, a virtually non-existent company that operated out of Venice Airport under Huffman?s license called Britannia Aviation was awarded a five-year, multi-million dollar contract to run the maintenance facility at Lychburg Virginia Regional Airport. (FYI, Lynchburg is the home of Jerry Falwell?s Liberty Baptist University.) Britannia did not have an FAA license to work on planes and showed assets of only $750. It was chosen over Virginia Aviation, which showed a multi-million dollar balance and boasted more than 40 employees.

44. Britannia executive Peter Martens boasted that his company had been providing maintenance at Venice Airport for "Caribe Air," which is a notorious CIA proprietary carrier.

45. A source at the Drug Enforcement Agency says that Britannia has a "green light" from the DEA, and that local police had been warned to leave Britannia alone.

46. Martens also has ties to Falwell, having met his wife at his university in Lynchburg.

47. Many of the Venice flight trainers moonlight by flying "missionary flights" to Central and South America, for such organizations as Pat Robertson?s Operation Hope. (Are mission groups being used as fronts for covert ops?)

48. Most of Atta's closest associates in Venice were not Arabs, but Europeans with connection to the drug trade.

49. Though flight school owners Dekkers and Kruithof had before crashed, within weeks of each other in 2002, both had near fatal crashes. Wreckage was destroyed before it could be examined.

50. According to his girlfriend, Atta was a big Beastie Boys fan.

 

[SixFive]

ptguard, how about what flapjack posted??

I've never read a government did it 911 book nor have I watched a video. Why should I? :shrug: I also said what you post can be disproven, not that I had done so. I'm not going to waste effort looking chit up that you'll just blow off.

bfd on the cnn poll. The government isn't telling us everything?? I would vote yes on that too. It would be irresponsible of the government to tell us everything going on. Don't you agree with that?

 

[pt1gard]

6'5

why do you even bother to carry on a conversation, you wont even answer simple, direct questions to show where your intelligence might lie ...

i said you havent disproven 'everything,' ... flapjacks one response only proves his family didnt want the money, nothing else ... now if FJ said he polled all the rest of the victims it would carry greater weight, get my drift...

and about the cnn poll, you can spin that your way, and yes i would like to know what they are hiding on 911 ... obviously you enjoy living in the dark ... do you or will you teach your kids, if or when you have them, to not ask questions and accpet all authority no matter what ...

now since i answered your questions w/o wimping out, why dont you mench up and do the same to all i posted you; if not dont bring in weak, dodging nonsense about 'looking up chit' to blow me away etc

thanks
gregg

 

[SixFive]

ok then. Post some questions you want me to answer, and I'll do my best to answer to show my intelligence (I am in the South, so don't expect too much, right, Sponge??).

I also said that you would blow off my answers not that they would blow you away.

living in the dark is one thing. Protecting our national security by not telling the public everything that is going on is another. That would be downright stupid.

 

[pt1gard]

ok, well skip back a couple posts and let me know--the questions are in there ... sorry about misinterpreting the 'blow off' thing ...

6'5 go to post 151 and answer all those questions, most of them are yes or no

 

[pt1gard]

6'5 and others, good, simple read, please explain this

6'5 and others, good, simple read, please explain this

this man investigated airplane parts in crashes for 30 years for the military ....

Aircraft Parts and the Precautionary Principle
Impossible to Prove a Falsehood True:
Aircraft Parts as a Clue to their Identity

by George Nelson
Colonel, USAF (ret.)

The precautionary principle is based on the fact it is impossible to prove a false claim. Failure to prove a claim does not automatically make it false, but caution is called for, especially in the case of a world-changing event like the alleged terror attacks of September 11, 2001. The Bush administration has provided no public evidence to support its claim that the terror attacks were the work of Muslim extremists or even that the aircraft that struck their respective targets on September 11 were as advertised. As I will show below, it would be a simple matter to confirm that they were - if they were. Until such proof is forthcoming, the opposite claim must be kept in mind as a precaution against rushing to judgment: the 911 hijackings were part of a black operation carried out with the cooperation of elements in our government.

In July 1965 I had just been commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the U. S. Air Force after taking a solemn oath that I would protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and that I would bear true faith and allegiance to the same. I took that oath very seriously. It was my constant companion throughout a thirty-year military career in the field of aircraft maintenance.

As an additional duty, aircraft maintenance officers are occasionally tasked as members of aircraft accident investigation boards and my personal experience was no exception. In 1989 I graduated from the Aircraft Mishap Investigation Course at the Institute of Safety and Systems Management at the University of Southern California. In addition to my direct participation as an aircraft accident investigator, I reviewed countless aircraft accident investigation reports for thoroughness and comprehensive conclusions for the Inspector General, HQ Pacific Air Forces during the height of the Vietnam conflict.

In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft ? and in most cases the precise cause of the accident. This is because every military and civilian passenger-carrying aircraft have many parts that are identified for safety of flight. That is, if any of the parts were to fail at any time during a flight, the failure would likely result in the catastrophic loss of aircraft and passengers. Consequently, these parts are individually controlled by a distinctive serial number and tracked by a records section of the maintenance operation and by another section called plans and scheduling.

Following a certain number of flying hours or, in the case of landing gears, a certain number of takeoff-and-landing cycles, these critical parts are required to be changed, overhauled or inspected by specialist mechanics. When these parts are installed, their serial numbers are married to the aircraft registration numbers in the aircraft records and the plans and scheduling section will notify maintenance specialists when the parts must be replaced. If the parts are not replaced within specified time or cycle limits, the airplane will normally be grounded until the maintenance action is completed. Most of these time-change parts, whether hydraulic flight surface actuators , pumps, landing gears, engines or engine components, are virtually indestructible. It would be impossible for an ordinary fire resulting from an airplane crash to destroy or obliterate all of those critical time-change parts or their serial numbers. I repeat, impossible.

Considering the catastrophic incidents of September 11 2001, certain troubling but irrefutable conclusions must be drawn from the known facts. I get no personal pleasure or satisfaction from reporting my own assessment of these facts.

United Airlines Flight 93

This flight was reported by the federal government to be a Boeing 757 aircraft, registration number N591UA, carrying 45 persons, including four Arab hijackers who had taken control of the aircraft, crashing the plane in a Pennsylvania farm field.

Aerial photos of the alleged crash site were made available to the general public. They show a significant hole in the ground, but private investigators were not allowed to come anywhere near the crash site. If an aircraft crash caused the hole in the ground, there would have literally hundreds of serially-controlled time-change parts within the hole that would have proved beyond any shadow of doubt the precise tail-number or identity of the aircraft. However, the government has not produced any hard evidence that would prove beyond a doubt that the specifically alleged aircraft crashed at that site. On the contrary, it has been reported that the aircraft, registry number N591UA, is still in operation.

American Airlines Flight 11

This flight was reported by the government to be a Boeing 767, registration number N334AA, carrying 92 people, including five Arabs who had hijacked the plane. This plane was reported to have crashed into the north tower of the WTC complex of buildings.

Again, the government would have no trouble proving its case if only a few of the hundreds of serially controlled parts had been collected to positively identify the aircraft. A Boeing 767 landing gear or just one engine would have been easy to find and identify.

United Airlines Flight 175

This flight was reported to be a Boeing 767, registration number N612UA, carrying 65 people, including the crew and five hijackers. It reportedly flew into the south tower of the WTC.

Once more, the government has yet to produce one serially controlled part from the crash site that would have dispelled any questions as to the identity of the specific airplane.

American Airlines Flight 77

This was reported to be a Boeing 757, registration number N644AA, carrying 64 people, including the flight crew and five hijackers. This aircraft, with a 125-foot wingspan, was reported to have crashed into the Pentagon, leaving an entry hole no more than 65 feet wide.

Following cool-down of the resulting fire, this crash site would have been very easy to collect enough time-change equipment within 15 minutes to positively identify the aircraft registry. There was apparently some aerospace type of equipment found at the site but no attempt was made to produce serial numbers or to identify the specific parts found. Some of the equipment removed from the building was actually hidden from public view.

Conclusion

The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001, resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft. On the contrary, it seems only that all potential evidence was deliberately kept hidden from public view. The hard evidence would have included hundreds of critical time-change aircraft items, plus security videotapes that were confiscated by the FBI immediately following each tragic episode.

With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged. Similarly, with all the evidence available at the Pennsylvania crash site, it was most doubtful that a passenger airliner caused the obvious hole in the ground and certainly not the Boeing 757 as alleged. Regarding the planes that allegedly flew into the WTC towers, it is only just possible that heavy aircraft were involved in each incident, but no evidence has been produced that would add credence to the government?s theoretical version of what actually caused the total destruction of the buildings, let alone proving the identity of the aircraft. That is the problem with the government?s 911 story. It is time to apply the precautionary principle.

As painful and heartbreaking as was the loss of innocent lives and the lingering health problems of thousands more, a most troublesome and nightmarish probability remains that so many Americans appear to be involved in the most heinous conspiracy in our country?s history.

Footnote: It will soon be five years since the tragic events of 9/11/01 unfolded, and still the general public has seen no physical evidence that should have been collected at each of the four crash sites, (a routine requirement during mandatory investigations of each and every major aircraft crash.) The National Transportation Safety Board has announced on its website that responsibility for the investigations and reports have been assigned to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, but there is no indication that mandatory investigations were ever conducted or that the reports of any investigations have been written.

 

[pt1gard]

ex fbi chief says coverup

ex fbi chief says coverup

Louis Freeh Charges 9/11 Commission Cover-Up
Thursday, Nov. 17, 2005



Former FBI Director Louis J. Freeh slammed the 9/11 Commission Thursday saying it ignored ? or "summarily rejected" ? the most critical piece of intelligence that could have prevented the horrific attacks of September 11, 2001.


Writing in the Wall Street Journal's opinion page, Freeh gave a blistering review of the Commission and says new revelations indicate it is "a good time for the country to make some assessments of the 9/11 Commission itself."


The former Bureau Director, who resigned his position just months before Sept. 11, 2001, points out that the U.S. government had learned of the identity of Mohammed Atta the year prior to the attacks. Atta was one of the ringleaders of the group, and piloted an American Airlines plane that slammed into one of the Twin Towers.


Freeh recounts that military intelligence operation code-named "Able Danger" concluded in February 2000 that military experts had identified Atta as an al-Qaida agent operating in the U.S.


"Subsequently, military officers assigned to Able Danger were prevented from sharing this critical information with FBI agents," Freeh writes. "Why?" he ponders, suggesting the failure to share such intelligence may be a smoking gun pointing at federal malfeasance in the case.


Freeh maintains that the Able Danger intelligence, if confirmed, is "undoubtedly the most relevant fact of the entire post-9/11 inquiry . . . Yet the 9/11 Commission inexplicably concluded that it "was not historically significant."


Two members of the House, Curt Weldon (R-Pa.) and Dan Burton (R-Ind.), have reported that shortly after the 9/11 attacks they provided then-Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley with a "chart" displaying pre-attack information about al-Qaida that had been collected by Able Danger.


But a spokesperson for the White House said that "a search of National Security Council files had failed to produce such a chart."


The final 9/11 Commission report, released on July 22, 2004, concluded that "American intelligence agencies were unaware of Mr. Atta until the day of the attacks."


Writes Freeh: "This now looks to be embarrassingly wrong."


In fact, Freeh discloses that 10 days before the report was released, commission staffers met with a Navy officer who said that Able Danger had identified Atta as an al-Qaida member and told the Commission the unit "had identified Mohammed Atta to be a member of an al Qaeda cell located in Brooklyn."


But the commission determined that "the officer's account was not sufficiently reliable to warrant revision of the report or further investigation.


Said Freeh: "This dismissive and apparently unsupported conclusion would have us believe that a key piece of evidence was summarily rejected in less than 10 days without serious investigation . . . "No wonder the 9/11 families were outraged by these revelations and called for a ?new' commission to investigate."


Though Freeh never blames any Clinton administration officials by name, responsibility for the intelligence failure would squarely fall on the Clinton administration as Able Danger's information was uncovered before George Bush became president.


Congressman Weldon, who has led Congressional efforts to shed light on the Able Danger claims, alleges that Jamie Gorelick, one of the Sept. 11 Commissioners, prevented the full committee from learning of Able Danger's crucial information. Gorelick has served as deputy attorney general during the Clinton administration.


"There's a cover up here," Weldon said. "It's clear and unequivocal." Freeh argues the Able Danger information requires a new inquiry. He also praised the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Arlen Specter (R-Pa.), for examining some of these matters.


Specter said at one hearing: "If Mr. Atta and other 9/11 terrorists were identified before the attacks, it would be a very serious breach not to have that information passed along ... We ought to get to the bottom of it."


Freeh writes in the Journal: "Indeed we should. "The Joint Intelligence Committees should reconvene and, in addition to Able Danger team members, we should have the 9/11 commissioners appear as

 

[maverick2112]

Something to consider for some...

A Post from another site.............

"Without even considering anything else, the fact of Bush publicly calling off and in effect banning a full investigation (and Daschle agreeing), of a crime and tragedy of this magnitude, that act of Bush fully constitutes Obstruction of Justice......

On the face of it -- such obstruction of an official investigation and tampering with evidence is often considered prima facie (on the face of it) evidence of guilt. Innocent people don't obstruct investigations. Innocent people don't tamper with evidence (or the collecting of evidence, or order it destroyed)..(which was done for sure)....

If there's a routine domestic homicide, and the husband or wife or anyone is caught destroying or tampering with evidence, or otherwise obstructing an investigation in any manner, at least the concept of "prima facie evidence of guilt" would arise......

In other words, the way it's supposed to work like on TV, if you **** with a crime scene or if you **** with a chain of evidence or get in the ****ing way of the cops, it's automatically assumed you have something to hide, you criminal......"

Now we can argue forever about certain points but this is an absolute fact which happened..........to bad someone didnt want to fully investigate he crime scene right after the fact......

 

[marine]

I am ashamed for ever opening this thread and feed

ing into this garbage