a quick poll--need some input

layinwood

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I never believe in conspiracy chit but I am smart enough to believe something just because one person or a few say it's true.

Listen to this and pay attention at the 4:30 mark if you don't want to listen to anything else in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo&mode=related&search=

also, do you reading on the "amero' our new currency. also read up on the North American Union, the European Union, the N African Union and the Asian union.

One thing I will say even if I think it's all bs. I don't like that chip because it does give other people control of your life, if they can turn it off and it's where all of your money and id is then they can absolutely make you not exist.
 

The Sponge

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my best to answer to show my intelligence (I am in the South, so don't expect too much, right, Sponge??).

.

No, i think you are very booksmart but also naive and gullible. Just looking at this give and take with PT should show you that. Again i also said a majority of the south which means over 50 percent. Not all Southerner's. Some of the brightess people in the world can be gullible. My job is trying to figure out what the correlation is:shrug:
 

pt1gard

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i guess these guys are traitors and commies - 9/23/07

i guess these guys are traitors and commies - 9/23/07

A 2,000 word article, Seven CIA Veterans Challenge 9/11 Commission Report ? Official Account of 9/11 a "Joke" and a "Cover-up", appeared today on OpEdNews.

The article details severe criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report by seven CIA veterans and their calls for a new investigation. A brief quote from each of the individuals featured in the article appears below.


Raymond McGovern, former Chairman of the National Intelligence Council and 27-year CIA veteran, "I think at simplest terms, there's a cover-up. The 9/11 Report is a joke."

William Christison, former National Intelligence Officer (NIO) and former Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political, and 29-year CIA veteran, "We very seriously need an entirely new very high level and truly independent investigation of the events of 9/11. I think you almost have to look at the 9/11 Commission Report as a joke and not a serious piece of analysis at all."

Melvin Goodman, PhD, former Division Chief of the CIA's Office of Soviet Affairs and Senior Analyst from 1966 - 1990, "The final report is ultimately a coverup. I don't know how else to describe it."

Robert Baer, 21-year CIA veteran and specialist in the Middle East, who was awarded the Career Intelligence Medal upon his retirement in 1997, "Until we get a complete, honest, transparent investigation ?, we will never know what happened on 9/11."

Robert David Steele has 25 years of combined service in the CIA and the U.S. Marine Corps. Second ranking civilian in U.S. Marine Corps Intelligence from 1988 - 1992. Member of the Adjunct Faculty of Marine Corps University. "I am forced to conclude that 9/11 was at a minimum allowed to happen as a pretext for war. ? I have to tell anyone who cares to read this: I believe it. I believe it enough to want a full investigation that passes the smell test of the 9/11 families as well as objective outside observers."

Lynne Larkin, former CIA Operations Officer who served in several CIA foreign stations before being assigned to the CIA's Counter-Intelligence Center. There, she co-chaired a multi-agency task force, which coordinated intelligence efforts among the many intelligence and law enforcement agencies. One of twenty-five signers of a letter to Congress expressing their concerns about "serious shortcomings," "omissions," and "major flaws" in the 9/11 Commission Report and offering their services for a new investigation.

David MacMichael, PhD, former Senior Estimates Officer at the CIA with special responsibility for Western Hemisphere Affairs at the CIA's National Intelligence Council. Prior to joining the CIA, he served for four years as a civilian counter-insurgency advisor to the U.S. government, and prior to that was a U.S. Marine Corps officer for ten years. One of twenty-five signers of a letter to Congress expressing their concerns about "serious shortcomings," "omissions," and "major flaws" in the 9/11 Commission Report and offering their services for a new investigation.

link to article

http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_alan_mil_070922_seven_cia_veterans_c.htm


marine,

did you read that article you are even commenting on, colonel nelson is saying the gov. wont produce any of the evidence that he has learned in his 30 years in his vocation that is never just lost ... i mean whats so difficult to construe from that :shrug: or do you think you know more about what happens to plane parts after a crash then he does
 
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pt1gard

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no thats cool that you are questioning, but i didnt understand how anything really mattered other than that these basically indestructible pieces of wreckage arent turning up and if they did why wont the gov. share them ...

as far as the planes themself, i dont think hes saying nothing hit, or is that what you are implying ... i mean theres a crater in PA. and a pentagon battered wall ...

so again, the point is, where are these parts ... are you with me on that ... where do you think they are :shrug: and why wont the gov. share them ... please explain that to me, bc thats all im asking you
 

pt1gard

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more traitors and commies

more traitors and commies

General Wesley Clark, U.S. Army (ret) ? Former Commanding General of U.S. European Command, which included all American military activities in the 89 countries and territories of Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. Additionally, Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR), which granted him overall command of NATO military forces in Europe 1997 - 2001. Awarded Bronze Star, Silver Star, and Purple Heart for his service in Viet Nam and numerous subsequent medals and citations. Graduated valedictorian of his class at West Point.

Video interview ABC's This Week with George Stephanopoulos 3/5/06: "I think when you look at this country, right now, we need a 2-party system that works. We need Congress to do its job. We need real investigation of some of the abuses of authority that are apparently going on at the Executive branch. ... We've never finished the investigation of 9/11 and whether the administration actually misused the intelligence information it had. The evidence seems pretty clear to me. I've seen that for a long time."




Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret) ? Former Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, 1981 - 1984. Also commanded the U.S. Army?s Electronic Research and Development Command and the U.S. Army?s Intelligence School and Center. Former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence. 32-year Army career.

Member, Military Intelligence Hall of Fame.
Video 7/11/06: "One of my experiences in the Army was being in charge of the Army?s Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence during the Cold War. I measured pieces of Soviet equipment from photographs. It was my job. I look at the hole in the Pentagon and I look at the size of an airplane that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon. And I said, ?The plane does not fit in that hole?. So what did hit the Pentagon? What hit it? Where is it? What's going on?" http://www.und


Editor's note: For more information on the impact at the Pentagon, see Colonel Nelson, Commander Muga, Lt. Col. Kwiatkowski, Lt. Col. Latas, Major Rokke, Capt. Wittenberg, Capt. Davis, Barbara Honegger, April Gallop, Colonel Bunel, and Steve DeChiaro.



Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps (ret) ? Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense during the Reagan Administration and a highly decorated Vietnam veteran (two Silver Stars, a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart). Appointed by President George H.W. Bush to serve on the American Battle Monuments Commission (1990 - 1994), and on the 1992 Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces. Military Historian and Deputy Director of Field Operations for the U.S. Marine Corps Historical Center, Washington, D.C. 1990 - 1994.

Article 7/10/06: "The former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense under the Reagan Administration and a highly decorated Vietnam veteran and Colonel has gone on the record to voice his doubts about the official story of 9/11 - calling it ?the dog that doesn't hunt.? ?I'm astounded that the conspiracy theory advanced by the administration could in fact be true and the evidence does not seem to suggest that's accurate,? he said."



Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) ? Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter. U.S. Air Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions. (PhD in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Cal Tech). Former Head of the Department of Aeronautical Engineering and Assistant Dean at the U.S. Air Force Institute of Technology. 22-year Air Force career. Also taught Mathematics and English at the University of Southern California, the University of Maryland, and Phillips University.

"A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It?s impossible. ? There?s a second group of facts having to do with the cover up. ? Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government don?t want us to know what happened and who?s responsible.?

Who gained from 9/11? Who covered up crucial information about 9/11? And who put out the patently false stories about 9/11 in the first place? When you take those three things together, I think the case is pretty clear that it?s highly placed individuals in the administration with all roads passing through Dick Cheney.

I think the very kindest thing that we can say about George W. Bush and all the people in the U.S. Government that have been involved in this massive cover-up, the very kindest thing we can say is that they were aware of impending attacks and let them happen. Now some people will say that?s much too kind, however even that is high treason and conspiracy to commit murder."

bowman's video for those that like motion pictures

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6900065571556128674
 

pt1gard

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i see your angle, but its obvious hes saying something hit and whatever it was left some debris ..

now agreeing to that, there would be serial numbers etc on the remains ... so why wont the gov. release those items ... do you think they shoud keep it all locked up ... whats your take on keeping the cameras and wreckage from public domain ... :shrug:

if one has nothing to hide, why keep it hidden

so please dont hide your answer hehe
 

pt1gard

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some good thoughts marine, thanks for responding ...

so for the record, you are saying the citizens of the usa should not be shown any of the debris or true video of what crashed into the pentagon ...

therefore and hence ...

that above knowledge could be some of the same possible criteria/evidence you are alluding to that would be undigestable for our minds or even dangerous, i.e. if it was a missile smashing into the pentagon or the debris elsewhere doesnt match up, it would somehow HURT our nation and the populace should not be subjected to such knowledge ...

...and furthermore if they did release this held-back evidence, and it didnt match up at all, would skrieking be unwise or unpatriotic, or illogical ...

im only talking this one incident, 911, not other scenarios past or present where i could see your point where we dont have all the facts--and in this case, i think you will agree, the only facts im talking about is releasing evidence
 
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pt1gard

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marine,

as to your first reply...

even you must realize how puerile the 'curiosity kills the cat' bromide must sound ...

ok, so what about a neutral party observing the debris and confiscated film, using live camera feed to TV... imagine those ratings... now, is that asking for the moon:shrug:


as to your second post ...

theres no set answer to that, its like handicapping a game, it subjective to each instance, yes there are some people expounding things i dont believe, but overall there is too much evidence to deny ...

on who saw the supposed flight 77 at the pentagon, there are 2 cops who said absolutely no way did it approach in the direction the kean-911 needed it to approach to fit their story... i dont have the answer to those that did see the flight--it still doesnt mean it was the same AA 77 bc they wont release the serial number debris--but least i admit when i dont have all the answers...

trouble is the kean lapdogs believe the 'official version' w/o ever inverstigating anything ... i mean, look at 6'5, he admits hes never read a book and yet he knows hes seen everything disproven... i must ask where, on a yellow journalism fox news special or PM excerpts.... i try to read dozens of different stories to try to see if things match up or change on both sides

whats funny, is initially i believed it all like you do ... then as i learned more, i didnt believe the towers were wired for explosives, now im pretty sure they were--im still learning; guys ive talked to that have researched this for 6 years are still learning--thats life ...

there are certain things i believe 100 per cent, others i lean heavily ... but i tell you this, no way in the world did the government not know what was going on ... do you know how many times theyve changed their times and stories to fit the evidence ...

i beg you to read a little to see them manipulate evidence to their benefit ... why would someone telling the truth have to do it ... i have read last night from various witnesses that the FAA went in three years later and changed 911 take off info, that people online have the original times and then suddenly updates happened 36 months later--what is that all about... even NORAD changed their homepage within 24 hours of 911 on what fighter bases were ready to scramble or not.

what do you think of so many military people calling the 911 commission bogus and a coverup ... and over 200 engineers disputing what The Judge insists is how the wtcs came down ...

why would people risk their reps on such a volatile subject .... some people like rosa parks have guts to go against the grain and seek the truth and justice, others are afraid to go contrary for many reasons--check clintons 'body count' on google-- losing their pension and jobs ...

anyhow, you are a military man ... let me ask you this, did you find it strange that only in the summer prior to 911 did BUSH, CHENEY and RUMSFELD wrestle the right to become the only ones allowed to issue orders to shoot down aircraft ... before that NORAD and generals were in on that action... now you dont find it even a bit suspsicious that bush was reading pet the goat in florida while cheney was in the white house bunker--lying about his time of arrival and refuted by mineta--telling an aide to follow his orders of the obvious stand down ... my gawd, man, type 'mineta' on youtube, the film is shown on the NET everywhere ... if you dont swallow that, and think your military brethren on the below link i just sent you are lying and/or are nuts, then you really have no sense of curiosity, which it appears you are so afraid of...

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html


ps another tidbit i just found


We also now know that six air traffic controllers at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center who were involved in dealing with the hijacks made a tape recording on September 11, describing the events that had occurred, with each controller giving a short statement. Yet, without the tape being transcribed or listened to by any investigators, an FAA quality-assurance manager destroyed it. Despite the FAA having sent an e-mail instructing officials to preserve all records, the manager reportedly ?crushed the cassette in his hand, cut the tape into little pieces and dropped them in different trash cans around the building.? Neither this quality-assurance manager nor the center manager disclosed the tape?s existence to their superiors and its destruction was only revealed by coincidence when one of the air traffic controllers asked to review it before giving testimony for a report.
 
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djv

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Yes they fall down when built on the cheap. If they were built like Empire State Bldg they still be standing.
Are you saying know one saw this large plane hit the Pentagon. That plane can't fly so fast that no one can see it.
 

The Sponge

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General Wesley Clark, U.S. Army (ret) ? Former Commanding General of U.S. European Command, which included all American military activities in the 89 countries and territories of Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. Additionally, Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR), which granted him overall command of NATO military forces in Europe 1997 - 2001. Awarded Bronze Star, Silver Star, and Purple Heart for his service in Viet Nam and numerous subsequent medals and citations. Graduated valedictorian of his class at West Point.

Video interview ABC's This Week with George Stephanopoulos 3/5/06: "I think when you look at this country, right now, we need a 2-party system that works. We need Congress to do its job. We need real investigation of some of the abuses of authority that are apparently going on at the Executive branch. ... We've never finished the investigation of 9/11 and whether the administration actually misused the intelligence information it had. The evidence seems pretty clear to me. I've seen that for a long time."




Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret) ? Former Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, 1981 - 1984. Also commanded the U.S. Army?s Electronic Research and Development Command and the U.S. Army?s Intelligence School and Center. Former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence. 32-year Army career.

Member, Military Intelligence Hall of Fame.
Video 7/11/06: "One of my experiences in the Army was being in charge of the Army?s Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence during the Cold War. I measured pieces of Soviet equipment from photographs. It was my job. I look at the hole in the Pentagon and I look at the size of an airplane that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon. And I said, ?The plane does not fit in that hole?. So what did hit the Pentagon? What hit it? Where is it? What's going on?" http://www.und


Editor's note: For more information on the impact at the Pentagon, see Colonel Nelson, Commander Muga, Lt. Col. Kwiatkowski, Lt. Col. Latas, Major Rokke, Capt. Wittenberg, Capt. Davis, Barbara Honegger, April Gallop, Colonel Bunel, and Steve DeChiaro.



Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps (ret) ? Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense during the Reagan Administration and a highly decorated Vietnam veteran (two Silver Stars, a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart). Appointed by President George H.W. Bush to serve on the American Battle Monuments Commission (1990 - 1994), and on the 1992 Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces. Military Historian and Deputy Director of Field Operations for the U.S. Marine Corps Historical Center, Washington, D.C. 1990 - 1994.

Article 7/10/06: "The former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense under the Reagan Administration and a highly decorated Vietnam veteran and Colonel has gone on the record to voice his doubts about the official story of 9/11 - calling it ?the dog that doesn't hunt.? ?I'm astounded that the conspiracy theory advanced by the administration could in fact be true and the evidence does not seem to suggest that's accurate,? he said."



Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) ? Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter. U.S. Air Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions. (PhD in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Cal Tech). Former Head of the Department of Aeronautical Engineering and Assistant Dean at the U.S. Air Force Institute of Technology. 22-year Air Force career. Also taught Mathematics and English at the University of Southern California, the University of Maryland, and Phillips University.

"A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It?s impossible. ? There?s a second group of facts having to do with the cover up. ? Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government don?t want us to know what happened and who?s responsible.?

Who gained from 9/11? Who covered up crucial information about 9/11? And who put out the patently false stories about 9/11 in the first place? When you take those three things together, I think the case is pretty clear that it?s highly placed individuals in the administration with all roads passing through Dick Cheney.

I think the very kindest thing that we can say about George W. Bush and all the people in the U.S. Government that have been involved in this massive cover-up, the very kindest thing we can say is that they were aware of impending attacks and let them happen. Now some people will say that?s much too kind, however even that is high treason and conspiracy to commit murder."

bowman's video for those that like motion pictures

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6900065571556128674

I don't know man those are some impressive names who have the same doubts that i do. I feel honored to be on the side of these guys than some easily conned dope like Kosar.
 

pt1gard

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KEAN REPORT OMISSIONS

KEAN REPORT OMISSIONS

okay, you believers, heres your holy grail, your TRUTH you are defending in the official story ... maybe peruse it and see if you can find some things that you as an impartial lawyer or judge or solomon type would expect to be seen in a legitimate search for the facts ....

here are 115 omissions in the KEAN-911 report ....

some of you might enjoy reading no. 14, 30, 43, 75, 76, 111-113 and 115, if you dont have time to comb thru the rest ...


marine, check out 100 and 101:shrug:



1. The omission of evidence that at least six of the alleged hijackers?-including Waleed al-Shehri, said by the Commission probably to have stabbed a flight attendant on Flight 11 before it crashed into the North Tower of the WTC?-are still alive (19-20).

2. The omission of evidence about Mohamed Atta?-such as his reported fondness for alcohol, pork, and lap dances?-that is in tension with the Commission's claim that he had become fanatically religious (20-21).

3. The obfuscation of the evidence that Hani Hanjour was too poor a pilot to have flown an airliner into the Pentagon (21-22).

4. The omission of the fact that the publicly released flight manifests contain no Arab names (23).

5. The omission of the fact that fire has never, before or after 9/11, caused steel-frame buildings to collapse (25).

6. The omission of the fact that the fires in the Twin Towers were not very big, very hot, or very long-lasting compared with fires in several steel-frame buildings that did not collapse (25-26).

7. The omission of the fact that, given the hypothesis that the collapses were caused by fire, the South Tower, which was struck later than the North Tower and also had smaller fires, should not have collapsed first (26).

8. The omission of the fact that WTC 7 (which was not hit by an airplane and which had only small, localized fires) also collapsed?-an occurrence that FEMA admitted it could not explain (26).

9. The omission of the fact that the collapse of the Twin Towers (like that of Building 7) exemplified at least 10 features suggestive of controlled demolition (26-27).

10. The claim that the core of each of the Twin Towers was "a hollow steel shaft"?-a claim that denied the existence of the 47 massive steel columns that in reality constituted the core of each tower and that, given the "pancake theory" of the collapses, should have still been sticking up many hundreds of feet in the air (27-28).

11. The omission of Larry Silverstein's statement that he and the fire department commander decided to "pull" Building 7 (28).

12. The omission of the fact that the steel from the WTC buildings was quickly removed from the crime scene and shipped overseas before it could be analyzed for evidence of explosives (30).

13. The omission of the fact that because Building 7 had been evacuated before it collapsed, the official reason for the rapid removal of the steel?-that some people might still be alive in the rubble under the steel?-made no sense in this case (30).

14. The omission of Mayor Giuliani's statement that he had received word that the World Trade Center was going to collapse (30-31).

15. The omission of the fact that President Bush's brother Marvin and his cousin Wirt Walker III were both principals in the company in charge of security for the WTC (31-32).

16. The omission of the fact that the west wing of the Pentagon would have been the least likely spot to be targeted by al-Qaeda terrorists, for several reasons (33-34).

17. The omission of any discussion of whether the damage done to the Pentagon was consistent with the impact of a Boeing 757 going several hundred miles per hour (34).

18. The omission of the fact that there are photos showing that the west wing's fa?ade did not collapse until 30 minutes after the strike and also that the entrance hole appears too small for a Boeing 757 to have entered (34).

19. The omission of all testimony that has been used to cast doubt on whether remains of a Boeing 757 were visible either inside or outside the Pentagon (34-36).

20. The omission of any discussion of whether the Pentagon has a anti-missile defense system that would have brought down a commercial airliner?-even though the Commission suggested that the al-Qaeda terrorists did not attack a nuclear power plant because they assumed that it would be thus defended (36).

21. The omission of the fact that pictures from various security cameras?-including the camera at the gas station across from the Pentagon, the film from which was reportedly confiscated by the FBI immediately after the strike?-could presumably answer the question of what really hit the Pentagon (37-38).

22. The omission of Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld's reference to "the missile [used] to damage [the Pentagon]" (39).

23. The apparent endorsement of a wholly unsatisfactory answer to the question of why the Secret Service agents allowed President Bush to remain at the Sarasota school at a time when, given the official story, they should have assumed that a hijacked airliner might be about to crash into the school (41-44).

24. The failure to explore why the Secret Service did not summon fighter jets to provide air cover for Air Force One (43-46).

25. The claims that when the presidential party arrived at the school, no one in the party knew that several planes had been hijacked (47-48).

26. The omission of the report that Attorney General Ashcroft was warned to stop using commercial airlines prior to 9/11 (50).

27. The omission of David Schippers' claim that he had, on the basis of information provided by FBI agents about upcoming attacks in lower Manhattan, tried unsuccessfully to convey this information to Attorney General Ashcroft during the six weeks prior to 9/11 (51).

28. The omission of any mention of the FBI agents who reportedly claimed to have known the targets and dates of the attacks well in advance (51-52).

29. The claim, by means of a circular, question-begging rebuttal, that the unusual purchases of put options prior to 9/11 did not imply advance knowledge of the attacks on the part of the buyers (52-57).

30. The omission of reports that both Mayor Willie Brown and some Pentagon officials received warnings about flying on 9/11 (57).

31. The omission of the report that Osama bin Laden, who already was America's "most wanted" criminal, was treated in July 2001 by an American doctor in the American Hospital in Dubai and visited by the local CIA agent (59).

32. The omission of news stories suggesting that after 9/11 the US military in Afghanistan deliberately allowed Osama bin Laden to escape (60).

33. The omission of reports, including the report of a visit to Osama bin Laden at the hospital in Dubai by the head of Saudi intelligence, that were in tension with the official portrayal of Osama as disowned by his family and his country (60-61).

34. The omission of Gerald Posner's account of Abu Zubaydah's testimony, according to which three members of the Saudi royal family?-all of whom later died mysteriously within an eight-day period?-were funding al-Qaeda and had advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks (61-65).

35. The Commission's denial that it found any evidence of Saudi funding of al-Qaeda (65-68).

36. The Commission's denial in particular that it found any evidence that money from Prince Bandar's wife, Princess Haifa, went to al-Qaeda operatives (69-70).

37. The denial, by means of simply ignoring the distinction between private and commercial flights, that the private flight carrying Saudis from Tampa to Lexington on September 13 violated the rules for US airspace in effect at the time (71-76).

38. The denial that any Saudis were allowed to leave the United States shortly after 9/11 without being adequately investigated (76-82).

39. The omission of evidence that Prince Bandar obtained special permission from the White House for the Saudi flights (82-86).

40. The omission of Coleen Rowley's claim that some officials at FBI headquarters did see the memo from Phoenix agent Kenneth Williams (89-90).

41. The omission of Chicago FBI agent Robert Wright's charge that FBI headquarters closed his case on a terrorist cell, then used intimidation to prevent him from publishing a book reporting his experiences (91).

42. The omission of evidence that FBI headquarters sabotaged the attempt by Coleen Rowley and other Minneapolis agents to obtain a warrant to search Zacarias Moussaoui's computer (91-94).

43. The omission of the 3.5 hours of testimony to the Commission by former FBI translator Sibel Edmonds?-testimony that, according to her later public letter to Chairman Kean, revealed serious 9/11-related cover-ups by officials at FBI headquarters (94-101).

44. The omission of the fact that General Mahmoud Ahmad, the head of Pakistan's intelligence agency (the ISI), was in Washington the week prior to 9/11, meeting with CIA chief George Tenet and other US officials (103-04).

45. The omission of evidence that ISI chief Ahmad had ordered $100,000 to be sent to Mohamed Atta prior to 9/11 (104-07).

46. The Commission's claim that it found no evidence that any foreign government, including Pakistan, had provided funding for the al-Qaeda operatives (106).

47. The omission of the report that the Bush administration pressured Pakistan to dismiss Ahmad as ISI chief after the appearance of the story that he had ordered ISI money sent to Atta (107-09).

48. The omission of evidence that the ISI (and not merely al-Qaeda) was behind the assassination of Ahmad Shah Masood (the leader of Afghanistan's Northern Alliance), which occurred just after the week-long meeting between the heads of the CIA and the ISI (110-112).

49. The omission of evidence of ISI involvement in the kidnapping and murder of Wall Street Reporter Daniel Pearl (113).

50. The omission of Gerald Posner's report that Abu Zubaydah claimed that a Pakistani military officer, Mushaf Ali Mir, was closely connected to both the ISI and al-Qaeda and had advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks (114).

51. The omission of the 1999 prediction by ISI agent Rajaa Gulum Abbas that the Twin Towers would be "coming down" (114).

52. The omission of the fact that President Bush and other members of his administration repeatedly spoke of the 9/11 attacks as "opportunities" (116-17).

53. The omission of the fact that The Project for the New American Century, many members of which became key figures in the Bush administration, published a document in 2000 saying that "a new Pearl Harbor" would aid its goal of obtaining funding for a rapid technological transformation of the US military (117-18).

54. The omission of the fact that Donald Rumsfeld, who as head of the commission on the US Space Command had recommended increased funding for it, used the attacks of 9/11 on that very evening to secure such funding (119-22).

55. The failure to mention the fact that three of the men who presided over the failure to prevent the 9/11 attacks?-Secretary Rumsfeld, General Richard Myers, and General Ralph Eberhart?-were also three of the strongest advocates for the US Space Command (122).

56. The omission of the fact that Unocal had declared that the Taliban could not provide adequate security for it to go ahead with its oil-and-gas pipeline from the Caspian region through Afghanistan and Pakistan (122-25).

57. The omission of the report that at a meeting in July 2001, US representatives said that because the Taliban refused to agree to a US proposal that would allow the pipeline project to go forward, a war against them would begin by October (125-26).

58. The omission of the fact that Zbigniew Brzezinski in his 1997 book had said that for the United States to maintain global primacy, it needed to gain control of Central Asia, with its vast petroleum reserves, and that a new Pearl Harbor would be helpful in getting the US public to support this imperial effort (127-28).

59. The omission of evidence that some key members of the Bush administration, including Donald Rumsfeld and his deputy Paul Wolfowitz, had been agitating for a war with Iraq for many years (129-33).

60. The omission of notes of Rumsfeld's conversations on 9/11 showing that he was determined to use the attacks as a pretext for a war with Iraq (131-32).

61. The omission of the statement by the Project for the New American Century that "the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein" (133-34).

62. The claim that FAA protocol on 9/11 required the time-consuming process of going through several steps in the chain of command?even though the Report cites evidence to the contrary (158).

63. The claim that in those days there were only two air force bases in NORAD's Northeast sector that kept fighters on alert and that, in particular, there were no fighters on alert at either McGuire or Andrews (159-162).

64. The omission of evidence that Andrews Air Force Base did keep several fighters on alert at all times (162-64).

65. The acceptance of the twofold claim that Colonel Marr of NEADS had to telephone a superior to get permission to have fighters scrambled from Otis and that this call required eight minutes (165-66).

66. The endorsement of the claim that the loss of an airplane's transponder signal makes it virtually impossible for the US military's radar to track that plane (166-67).

67. The claim that the Payne Stewart interception did not show NORAD's response time to Flight 11 to be extraordinarily slow (167-69).

68. The claim that the Otis fighters were not airborne until seven minutes after they received the scramble order because they did not know where to go (174-75).

69. The claim that the US military did not know about the hijacking of Flight 175 until 9:03, when it was crashing into the South Tower (181-82).

70. The omission of any explanation of (a) why NORAD's earlier report, according to which the FAA had notified the military about the hijacking of Flight 175 at 8:43, was now to be considered false and (b) how this report, if it was false, could have been published and then left uncorrected for almost three years (182).

71. The claim that the FAA did not set up a teleconference until 9:20 that morning (183).

72. The omission of the fact that a memo by Laura Brown of the FAA says that its teleconference was established at about 8:50 and that it included discussion of Flight 175's hijacking (183-84, 186).

73. The claim that the NMCC teleconference did not begin until 9:29 (186-88).

74. The omission, in the Commission's claim that Flight 77 did not deviate from its course until 8:54, of the fact that earlier reports had said 8:46 (189-90).

75. The failure to mention that the report that a large jet had crashed in Kentucky, at about the time Flight 77 disappeared from FAA radar, was taken seriously enough by the heads of the FAA and the FBI's counterterrorism unit to be relayed to the White House (190).

76. The claim that Flight 77 flew almost 40 minutes through American airspace towards Washington without being detected by the military's radar (191-92).

77. The failure to explain, if NORAD's earlier report that it was notified about Flight 77 at 9:24 was "incorrect," how this erroneous report could have arisen, i.e., whether NORAD officials had been lying or simply confused for almost three years (192-93).

78. The claim that the Langley fighter jets, which NORAD had previously said were scrambled to intercept Flight 77, were actually scrambled in response to an erroneous report from an (unidentified) FAA controller at 9:21 that Flight 11 was still up and was headed towards Washington (193-99).

79. The claim that the military did not hear from the FAA about the probable hijacking of Flight 77 before the Pentagon was struck (204-12).

80. The claim that Jane Garvey did not join Richard Clarke's videoconference until 9:40, after the Pentagon was struck (210).

81. The claim that none of the teleconferences succeeded in coordinating the FAA and military responses to the hijackings because "none of [them] included the right officials from both the FAA and the Defense Department"?-although Richard Clarke says that his videoconference included FAA head Jane Garvey as well as Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld and General Richard Myers, the acting chair of the joint chiefs of staff (211).

82. The Commission's claim that it did not know who from the Defense Department participated in Clarke's videoconference?-although Clarke's book said that it was Donald Rumsfeld and General Myers (211-212).

83. The endorsement of General Myers' claim that he was on Capitol Hill during the attacks, without mentioning Richard Clarke's contradictory account, according to which Myers was in the Pentagon participating in Clarke's videoconference (213-17).

84. The failure to mention the contradiction between Clarke's account of Rumsfeld's whereabouts that morning and Rumsfeld's own accounts (217-19).

85. The omission of Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta's testimony, given to the Commission itself, that Vice-President Cheney and others in the underground shelter were aware by 9:26 that an aircraft was approaching the Pentagon (220).

86. The claim that Pentagon officials did not know about an aircraft approaching Pentagon until 9:32, 9:34, or 9:36?-in any case, only a few minutes before the building was hit (223).

87. The endorsement of two contradictory stories about the aircraft that hit the Pentagon?-one in which it executed a 330-degree downward spiral (a "high-speed dive") and another in which there is no mention of this maneuver (222-23).

88. The claim that the fighter jets from Langley, which were allegedly scrambled to protect Washington from "Phantom Flight 11," were nowhere near Washington because they were mistakenly sent out to sea (223-24).

89. The omission of all the evidence suggesting that the aircraft that hit the Pentagon was not Flight 77 (224-25).

90. The claim that the military was not notified by the FAA about Flight 93's hijacking until after it crashed (227-29, 232, 253).

91. The twofold claim that the NMCC did not monitor the FAA-initiated conference and then was unable to get the FAA connected to the NMCC-initiated teleconference (230-31).

92. The omission of the fact that the Secret Service is able to know everything that the FAA knows (233).

93. The omission of any inquiry into why the NMCC initiated its own teleconference if, as Laura Brown of the FAA has said, this is not standard protocol (234).

94. The omission of any exploration of why General Montague Winfield not only had a rookie (Captain Leidig) take over his role as the NMCC's Director of Operations but also left him in charge after it was clear that the Pentagon was facing an unprecedented crisis (235-36).

95. The claim that the FAA (falsely) notified the Secret Service between 10:10 and 10:15 that Flight 93 was still up and headed towards Washington (237).

96. The claim that Vice President Cheney did not give the shoot-down authorization until after 10:10 (several minutes after Flight 93 had crashed) and that this authorization was not transmitted to the US military until 10:31 (237-41).

97. The omission of all the evidence indicating that Flight 93 was shot down by a military plane (238-39, 252-53).

98. The claim that Richard Clarke did not receive the requested shoot-down authorization until 10:25 (240).

99. The omission of Clarke's own testimony, which suggests that he received the shoot-down authorization by 9:50 (240).

100. The claim that Cheney did not reach the underground shelter (the PEOC [Presidential Emergency Operations Center]) until 9:58 (241-44).

101. The omission of multiple testimony, including that of Norman Mineta to the Commission itself, that Cheney was in the PEOC before 9:20 (241-44).

102. The claim that shoot-down authorization must be given by the president (245).

103. The omission of reports that Colonel Marr ordered a shoot-down of Flight 93 and that General Winfield indicated that he and others at the NMCC had expected a fighter jet to reach Flight 93 (252).

104. The omission of reports that there were two fighter jets in the air a few miles from NYC and three of them only 200 miles from Washington (251).

105. The omission of evidence that there were at least six bases with fighters on alert in the northeastern part of the United States (257-58).

106. The endorsement of General Myers' claim that NORAD had defined its mission in terms of defending only against threats from abroad (258-62).

107. The endorsement of General Myers' claim that NORAD had not recognized the possibility that terrorists might use hijacked airliners as missiles (262-63).

108. The failure to highlight the significance of evidence presented in the Report itself, and to mention other evidence, showing that NORAD had indeed recognized the threat that hijacked airliners might be used as missiles (264-67).

109. The failure to probe the issue of how the "war games" scheduled for that day were related to the military's failure to intercept the hijacked airliners (268-69).

110. The failure to discuss the possible relevance of Operation Northwoods to the attacks of 9/11 (269-71).

111. The claim?-made in explaining why the military did not get information about the hijackings in time to intercept them?that FAA personnel inexplicably failed to follow standard procedures some 16 times (155-56, 157, 179, 180, 181, 190, 191, 193, 194, 200, 202-03, 227, 237, 272-75).

112. The failure to point out that the Commission's claimed "independence" was fatally compromised by the fact that its executive director, Philip Zelikow, was virtually a member of the Bush administration (7-9, 11-12, 282-84).

113. The failure to point out that the White House first sought to prevent the creation of a 9/11 Commission, then placed many obstacles in its path, including giving it extremely meager funding (283-85).

114. The failure to point out that the Commission's chairman, most of the other commissioners, and at least half of the staff had serious conflicts of interest (285-90, 292-95).

115. The failure of the Commission, while bragging that it presented its final report "without dissent," to point out that this was probably possible only because Max Cleland, the commissioner who was most critical of the White House and swore that he would not be part of "looking at information only partially," had to resign in order to accept a position with the Export-Import Bank, and that the White House forwarded his nomination for this position only after he was becoming quite outspoken in his criticisms (290-291).

I will close by pointing out that I concluded my study of what I came to call "the Kean-Zelikow Report" by writing that it, "far from lessening my suspicions about official complicity, has served to confirm them. Why would the minds in charge of this final report engage in such deception if they were not trying to cover up very high crimes?" (291)
SS
 
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DOGS THAT BARK

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Jul 13, 1999
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Well looks like you have another supporter to theory--per Mr A at Columbia School of Liberalism--and the students applauded his comment so once again appears we have terrorists and liberals on common ground ;)

"The Iranian leader also defended Holocaust revisionists and raised questions about who carried out the Sept. 11 attacks in a tense showdown Monday at Columbia University."
 

pt1gard

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i do find it amusing that many naysayers respond with potshots and dont address the topics or obvious points of contention, instead utilize bully tactics ...

not saying all do this.... the liar/thug was vanquished to lick his wounds when exposed, then he uses ruse that his tix were non revenue, under the guise they wouldnt show up im imagining, when that makes no difference on a flight manifest--call and ask any airline on that... plus, doesnt anyone find it odd that no national news service wouldnt have talked about the poor twin toddlers that perished ... the man is a pathological liar ... since he felt the need to attack me and summon the challenge to bring it on, then pussed out, i felt he should be exposed for the humbug/fraud/bully that he is.

amazing how he hoodwinked so many lackeys here with his gestapo hubris... i hope he resurfaces anyway:142smilie theres no way he can with the documented :nono: lies he has told

ok no more breath on that subhuman unless he washes up on the shore and starts it back up
 
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pt1gard

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could flight 175, a 767, have hit tower at purported speed

could flight 175, a 767, have hit tower at purported speed

watch these vids in order, helps explains the factors of flying and possibilties or such...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2up...7/09/boeing-employees-confirm-flight-175.html


The limiting speed (VNE, velocity not exceed) for a Boeing 767 is 954 km/h (593 mph / 516 knots) at 35,000 ft (10,667 m). The maximum cruising speed is about 563 mph (906 km/h or 490 knots). The 'normal' cruising speed is about 530 mph (853 km/h or 460 knots).

Below 10,000 ft, VNE = 250 knots or 287.7 mph (463 km/h).

It does appear from a calculation (link posted by hitssquad) that the Boeing 767-200, which hit the south tower of the WTC was traveling at a 503 mph (437 knots, 810 km/h). But that seems to be the only such study readily available online.

I read on citation that the FBI somehow assumed the craft was traveling near 590 mph, i.e. near VNE. This conclusion seems problematic since the aircraft had to turn more than 90? to head back to the south tower. Perhaps it slowed then accelerated, as Morbius indicated in his post.

Nevertheless, this is certainly much faster than 350 mph which was referenced in a industry report on containment survivability in the event of an impact of a commercial aircraft. It would be prudent to repeat the study with a speed of at least 500 mph.

NCI claims a calculation at "maximum cruising speed" with some equation from NRDC shows that penetration of containment is likely. However, I cannot find the speed (max. cruising or VNE), nor the equation, so it is not possible to verify the conclusion of containment penetrability.


another video

http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_For_Truth/index.php?showtopic=6819
 
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