a quick poll--need some input

[marine]

Good stuff Judge

Fact - the new 4 letter word.

 

[Blitz]

According to the title of this thread, this was supposed to be a "Quick" poll... :shrug:

 

[The Judge]

The Planes
The widely accepted account that hijackers commandeered and crashed the four 9/11 planes is supported by reams of evidence, from cockpit recordings to forensics to the fact that crews and passengers never returned home. Nonetheless, conspiracy theorists seize on a handful of "facts" to argue a very different scenario: The jets that struck New York and Washington, D.C., weren't commercial planes, they say, but something else, perhaps refueling tankers or guided missiles. And the lack of military intervention? Theorists claim it proves the U.S. government instigated the assault or allowed it to occur in order to advance oil interests or a war agenda.

Where's The Pod?
Claim: Photographs and video footage shot just before United Airlines Flight 175 hit the South Tower of the World Trade Center (WTC) show an object underneath the fuselage at the base of the right wing. The film "911 In Plane Site" and the website LetsRoll911.org claim that no such object is found on a stock Boeing 767. They speculate that this "military pod" is a missile, a bomb or a piece of equipment on an air-refueling tanker. LetsRoll911.org points to this as evidence that the attacks were an "inside job" sanctioned by "President George Bush, who planned and engineered 9/11."

FACT: One of the clearest, most widely seen pictures of the doomed jet's undercarriage was taken by photographer Rob Howard and published in New York magazine and elsewhere (opening page). Popular Mechanics sent a digital scan of the original photo to Ronald Greeley, director of the Space Photography Laboratory at Arizona State University. Greeley is an expert at analyzing images to determine the shape and features of geological formations based on shadow and light effects. After studying the high-resolution image and comparing it to photos of a Boeing 767-200ER's undercarriage, Greeley dismissed the notion that the Howard photo reveals a "pod." In fact, the photo reveals only the Boeing's right fairing, a pronounced bulge that contains the landing gear. He concludes that sunlight glinting off the fairing gave it an exaggerated look. "Such a glint causes a blossoming (enlargement) on film," he writes in an e-mail to PM, "which tends to be amplified in digital versions of images ? the pixels are saturated and tend to 'spill over' to adjacent pixels." When asked about pods attached to civilian aircraft, Fred E. Culick, professor of aeronautics at the California Institute of Technology, gave a blunter response: "That's bull. They're really stretching."

No Stand-Down Order
Claim: No fighter jets were scrambled from any of the 28 Air Force bases within close range of the four hijacked flights. "On 11 September Andrews had two squadrons of fighter jets with the job of protecting the skies over Washington D.C.," says the website emperors-clothes.com. "They failed to do their job." "There is only one explanation for this," writes Mark R. Elsis of StandDown.net. "Our Air Force was ordered to Stand Down on 9/11."

FACT: On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked ? the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.

Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. And NORAD's sophisticated radar? It ringed the continent, looking outward for threats, not inward. "It was like a doughnut," Martin says. "There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them.

Flight 175's Windows
Claim: On Sept. 11, FOX News broadcast a live phone interview with FOX employee Marc Birnbach. 911inplanesite.com states that "Bernback" saw the plane "crash into the South Tower." "It definitely did not look like a commercial plane," Birnbach said on air. "I didn't see any windows on the sides."

Coupled with photographs and videos of Flight 175 that lack the resolution to show windows, Birnbach's statement has fueled one of the most widely referenced 9/11 conspiracy theories ? specifically, that the South Tower was struck by a military cargo plane or a fuel tanker.

Plain View: Passenger windows on a piece of Flight 175's fuselage. (Photograph by William F. Baker/FEMA)

FACT: Birnbach, who was a freelance videographer with FOX News at the time, tells PM that he was more than 2 miles southeast of the WTC, in Brooklyn, when he briefly saw a plane fly over. He says that, in fact, he did not see the plane strike the South Tower; he says he only heard the explosion.

While heading a Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) probe into the collapse of the towers, W. Gene Corley studied the airplane wreckage. A licensed structural engineer with Construction Technology Laboratories, a consulting firm based in Skokie, Ill., Corley and his team photographed aircraft debris on the roof of WTC 5, including a chunk of fuselage that clearly had passenger windows. "It's ... from the United Airlines plane that hit Tower 2," Corley states flatly. In reviewing crash footage taken by an ABC news crew, Corley was able to track the trajectory of the fragments he studied ? including a section of the landing gear and part of an engine ? as they tore through the South Tower, exited from the building's north side and fell from the sky.

Intercepts Not Routine
Claim: "It has been standard operating procedures for decades to immediately intercept off-course planes that do not respond to communications from air traffic controllers," says the Web site oilempire.us. "When the Air Force 'scrambles' a fighter plane to intercept, they usually reach the plane in question in minutes."

FACT: In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999. With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed. Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet. Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). "Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," FAA spokesman Bill Schumann tells PM. After 9/11, NORAD and the FAA increased cooperation, setting up hotlines between ATCs and NORAD command centers, according to officials from both agencies. NORAD has also increased its fighter coverage and has installed radar to monitor airspace over the continent.

 

[The Judge]

The World Trade Center
The collapse of both World Trade Center towers ? and the smaller WTC 7 a few hours later ? initially surprised even some experts. But subsequent studies have shown that the WTC's structural integrity was destroyed by intense fire as well as the severe damage inflicted by the planes. That explanation hasn't swayed conspiracy theorists, who contend that all three buildings were wired with explosives in advance and razed in a series of controlled demolitions.

Widespread Damage
Claim: The first hijacked plane crashed through the 94th to the 98th floors of the World Trade Center's 110-story North Tower; the second jet slammed into the 78th to the 84th floors of the 110-story South Tower. The impact and ensuing fires disrupted elevator service in both buildings. Plus, the lobbies of both buildings were visibly damaged before the towers collapsed. "There is NO WAY the impact of the jet caused such widespread damage 80 stories below," claims a posting on the San Diego Independent Media Center Web site (sandiego.indymedia.org). "It is OBVIOUS and irrefutable that OTHER EXPLOSIVES (... such as concussion bombs) HAD ALREADY BEEN DETONATED in the lower levels of tower one at the same time as the plane crash."

FACT: Following up on a May 2002 preliminary report by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), a major study will be released in spring 2005 by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce. NIST shared its initial findings with PM and made its lead researcher available to our team of reporters.

The NIST investigation revealed that plane debris sliced through the utility shafts at the North Tower's core, creating a conduit for burning jet fuel ? and fiery destruction throughout the building. "It's very hard to document where the fuel went," says Forman Williams, a NIST adviser and a combustion expert, "but if it's atomized and combustible and gets to an ignition source, it'll go off."

Burning fuel traveling down the elevator shafts would have disrupted the elevator systems and caused extensive damage to the lobbies. NIST heard first-person testimony that "some elevators slammed right down" to the ground floor. "The doors cracked open on the lobby floor and flames came out and people died," says James Quintiere, an engineering professor at the University of Maryland and a NIST adviser. A similar observation was made in the French documentary "9/11," by Jules and Gedeon Naudet. As Jules Naudet entered the North Tower lobby, minutes after the first aircraft struck, he saw victims on fire, a scene he found too horrific to film.

"Melted" Steel
Claim: "We have been lied to," announces the Web site AttackOnAmerica.net. "The first lie was that the load of fuel from the aircraft was the cause of structural failure. No kerosene fire can burn hot enough to melt steel." The posting is entitled "Proof Of Controlled Demolition At The WTC."

FACT: Jet fuel burns at 800? to 1500?F, not hot enough to melt steel (2750?F). However, experts agree that for the towers to collapse, their steel frames didn't need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength ? and that required exposure to much less heat. "I have never seen melted steel in a building fire," says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. "But I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks."

"Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100?F," notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. "And at 1800? it is probably at less than 10 percent." NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.

But jet fuel wasn't the only thing burning, notes Forman Williams, a professor of engineering at the University of California, San Diego, and one of seven structural engineers and fire experts that PM consulted. He says that while the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832?F.

"The jet fuel was the ignition source," Williams tells PM. "It burned for maybe 10 minutes, and [the towers] were still standing in 10 minutes. It was the rest of the stuff burning afterward that was responsible for the heat transfer that eventually brought them down."

Puffs Of Dust
Claim: As each tower collapsed, clearly visible puffs of dust and debris were ejected from the sides of the buildings. An advertisement in The New York Times for the book Painful Questions: An Analysis Of The September 11th Attack made this claim: "The concrete clouds shooting out of the buildings are not possible from a mere collapse. They do occur from explosions." Numerous conspiracy theorists cite Van Romero, an explosives expert and vice president of the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, who was quoted on 9/11 by the Albuquerque Journal as saying "there were some explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the towers to collapse." The article continues, "Romero said the collapse of the structures resembled those of controlled implosions used to demolish old structures."

Violent Collapse: Pancaking floors ? not controlled demolition ? expel debris and smoke out South Tower windows. (Photograph by AP/Wide World Photos)

FACT: Once each tower began to collapse, the weight of all the floors above the collapsed zone bore down with pulverizing force on the highest intact floor. Unable to absorb the massive energy, that floor would fail, transmitting the forces to the floor below, allowing the collapse to progress downward through the building in a chain reaction. Engineers call the process "pancaking," and it does not require an explosion to begin, according to David Biggs, a structural engineer at Ryan-Biggs Associates and a member of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) team that worked on the FEMA report.

Like all office buildings, the WTC towers contained a huge volume of air. As they pancaked, all that air ? along with the concrete and other debris pulverized by the force of the collapse ? was ejected with enormous energy. "When you have a significant portion of a floor collapsing, it's going to shoot air and concrete dust out the window," NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder tells PM. Those clouds of dust may create the impression of a controlled demolition, Sunder adds, "but it is the floor pancaking that leads to that perception."

Demolition expert Romero regrets that his comments to the Albuquerque Journal became fodder for conspiracy theorists. "I was misquoted in saying that I thought it was explosives that brought down the building," he tells PM. "I only said that that's what it looked like."

Romero, who agrees with the scientific conclusion that fire triggered the collapses, demanded a retraction from the Journal. It was printed Sept. 22, 2001. "I felt like my scientific reputation was on the line." But emperors-clothes.com saw something else: "The paymaster of Romero's research institute is the Pentagon. Directly or indirectly, pressure was brought to bear, forcing Romero to retract his original statement." Romero responds: "Conspiracy theorists came out saying that the government got to me. That is the farthest thing from the truth. This has been an albatross around my neck for three years."

Seismic Spikes
Claim: Seismographs at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, N.Y., 21 miles north of the WTC, recorded the events of 9/11. "The strongest jolts were all registered at the beginning of the collapses, well before falling debris struck the earth," reports the Web site WhatReallyHappened.com.

A columnist on Prisonplanet.com, a Web site run by radio talk show host Alex Jones, claims the seismic spikes (boxed area on Graph 1) are "indisputable proof that massive explosions brought down" the towers. The Web site says its findings are supported by two seismologists at the observatory, Won-Young Kim and Arthur Lerner-Lam. Each "sharp spike of short duration," says Prisonplanet.com, was consistent with a "demolition-style implosion."

Fine Lines: Revisionists say sharp spikes (graph 1, above) mean bombs toppled the WTC. Scientists disprove the claim with the more detailed graph 2 (below). (Seismograph readings by Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory of Columbia University: Won-Young Kim, senior research scientist; Arthur Lerner-Lam, associate director; Mary Tobin, senior science writer)

FACT: "There is no scientific basis for the conclusion that explosions brought down the towers," Lerner-Lam tells PM. "That representation of our work is categorically incorrect and not in context."

The report issued by Lamont-Doherty includes various graphs showing the seismic readings produced by the planes crashing into the two towers as well as the later collapse of both buildings. WhatReallyHappened.com chooses to display only one graph (Graph 1), which shows the readings over a 30-minute time span.

On that graph, the 8- and 10-second collapses appear ? misleadingly ? as a pair of sudden spikes. Lamont-Doherty's 40-second plot of the same data (Graph 2) gives a much more detailed picture: The seismic waves ? blue for the South Tower, red for the North Tower ? start small and then escalate as the buildings rumble to the ground. Translation: no bombs.

 

[The Judge]

WTC 7 Collapse
Claim: Seven hours after the two towers fell, the 47-story WTC 7 collapsed. According to 911review.org: "The video clearly shows that it was not a collapse subsequent to a fire, but rather a controlled demolition: amongst the internet investigators, the jury is in on this one."

Fire Storm: WTC 7 stands amid the rubble of the recently collapsed Twin Towers. Damaged by falling debris, the building then endures a fire that rages for hours. Experts say this combination, not a demolition-style implosion, led to the roofline "kink" that signals WTC 7's progressive collapse. (Photograph by New York Office of Emergency Management)

FACT: Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA's preliminary report, which said there was relatively light damage to WTC 7 prior to its collapse. With the benefit of more time and resources, NIST researchers now support the working hypothesis that WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated. "The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, physical damage to the south face of building 7," NIST's Sunder tells PM. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom ? approximately 10 stories ? about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out." NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7's upper stories and its southwest corner.

NIST investigators believe a combination of intense fire and severe structural damage contributed to the collapse, though assigning the exact proportion requires more research. But NIST's analysis suggests the fall of WTC 7 was an example of "progressive collapse," a process in which the failure of parts of a structure ultimately creates strains that cause the entire building to come down. Videos of the fall of WTC 7 show cracks, or "kinks," in the building's facade just before the two penthouses disappeared into the structure, one after the other. The entire building fell in on itself, with the slumping east side of the structure pulling down the west side in a diagonal collapse.

According to NIST, there was one primary reason for the building's failure: In an unusual design, the columns near the visible kinks were carrying exceptionally large loads, roughly 2000 sq. ft. of floor area for each floor. "What our preliminary analysis has shown is that if you take out just one column on one of the lower floors," Sunder notes, "it could cause a vertical progression of collapse so that the entire section comes down."

There are two other possible contributing factors still under investigation: First, trusses on the fifth and seventh floors were designed to transfer loads from one set of columns to another. With columns on the south face apparently damaged, high stresses would likely have been communicated to columns on the building's other faces, thereby exceeding their load-bearing capacities.

Second, a fifth-floor fire burned for up to 7 hours. "There was no firefighting in WTC 7," Sunder says. Investigators believe the fire was fed by tanks of diesel fuel that many tenants used to run emergency generators. Most tanks throughout the building were fairly small, but a generator on the fifth floor was connected to a large tank in the basement via a pressurized line. Says Sunder: "Our current working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time."

WTC 7 might have withstood the physical damage it received, or the fire that burned for hours, but those combined factors ? along with the building's unusual construction ? were enough to set off the chain-reaction collapse.

 

[The Judge]

The Pentagon
At 9:37 am on 9/11, 51 minutes after the first plane hit the World Trade Center, the Pentagon was similarly attacked. Though dozens of witnesses saw a Boeing 757 hit the building, conspiracy advocates insist there is evidence that a missile or a different type of plane smashed into the Pentagon.

HQ Attack: Taken three days after 9/11, this photo shows the extent of the damage to the Pentagon, consistent with a fiery plane crash. (Photograph by Department of Defense)

Big Plane, Small Holes
Claim: Two holes were visible in the Pentagon immediately after the attack: a 75-ft.-wide entry hole in the building's exterior wall, and a 16-ft.-wide hole in Ring C, the Pentagon's middle ring. Conspiracy theorists claim both holes are far too small to have been made by a Boeing 757. "How does a plane 125 ft. wide and 155 ft. long fit into a hole which is only 16 ft. across?" asks reopen911.org, a website "dedicated to discovering the bottom line truth to what really occurred on September 11, 2001."

The truth is of even less importance to French author Thierry Meyssan, whose baseless assertions are fodder for even mainstream European and Middle Eastern media. In his book The Big Lie, Meyssan concludes that the Pentagon was struck by a satellite-guided missile ? part of an elaborate U.S. military coup. "This attack," he writes, "could only be committed by United States military personnel against other U.S. military personnel."

Hole Truth: Flight 77's landing gear punched a 12-ft. hole into the Pentagon's Ring C. (Photograph by Department of Defense)

FACT: When American Airlines Flight 77 hit the Pentagon's exterior wall, Ring E, it created a hole approximately 75 ft. wide, according to the ASCE Pentagon Building Performance Report. The exterior facade collapsed about 20 minutes after impact, but ASCE based its measurements of the original hole on the number of first-floor support columns that were destroyed or damaged. Computer simulations confirmed the findings.

Why wasn't the hole as wide as a 757's 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan? A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University. In this case, one wing hit the ground; the other was sheared off by the force of the impact with the Pentagon's load-bearing columns, explains Sozen, who specializes in the behavior of concrete buildings. What was left of the plane flowed into the structure in a state closer to a liquid than a solid mass. "If you expected the entire wing to cut into the building," Sozen tells PM, "it didn't happen."

The tidy hole in Ring C was 12 ft. wide ? not 16 ft. ASCE concludes it was made by the jet's landing gear, not by the fuselage.

Intact Windows
Claim: Many Pentagon windows remained in one piece ? even those just above the point of impact from the Boeing 757 passenger plane. Pentagonstrike.co.uk, an online animation widely circulated in the United States and Europe, claims that photographs showing "intact windows" directly above the crash site prove "a missile" or "a craft much smaller than a 757" struck the Pentagon.

FACT: Some windows near the impact area did indeed survive the crash. But that's what the windows were supposed to do ? they're blast-resistant.

"A blast-resistant window must be designed to resist a force significantly higher than a hurricane that's hitting instantaneously," says Ken Hays, executive vice president of Masonry Arts, the Bessemer, Ala., company that designed, manufactured and installed the Pentagon windows. Some were knocked out of the walls by the crash and the outer ring's later collapse. "They were not designed to receive wracking seismic force," Hays notes. "They were designed to take in inward pressure from a blast event, which apparently they did: [Before the collapse] the blinds were still stacked neatly behind the window glass."

Flight 77 Debris
Claim: Conspiracy theorists insist there was no plane wreckage at the Pentagon. "In reality, a Boeing 757 was never found," claims [urlpentagonstrike.co.uk[/url], which asks the question, "What hit the Pentagon on 9/11?"

Aftermath: Wreckage from Flight 77 on the Pentagon's lawn ? proof that a passenger plane, not a missile, hit the building. (Photograph by AP/Wide World Photos)

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

 

[The Judge]

Flight 93
Cockpit recordings indicate the passengers on United Airlines Flight 93 teamed up to attack their hijackers, forcing down the plane near Shanksville, in southwestern Pennsylvania. But conspiracy theorists assert Flight 93 was destroyed by a heat-seeking missile from an F-16 or a mysterious white plane. Some theorists add far-fetched elaborations: No terrorists were aboard, or the passengers were drugged. The wildest is the "bumble planes" theory, which holds that passengers from Flights 11, 175 and 77 were loaded onto Flight 93 so the U.S. government could kill them.

The White Jet
Claim: At least six eyewitnesses say they saw a small white jet flying low over the crash area almost immediately after Flight 93 went down. BlogD.com theorizes that the aircraft was downed by "either a missile fired from an Air Force jet, or via an electronic assault made by a U.S. Customs airplane reported to have been seen near the site minutes after Flight 93 crashed." WorldNetDaily.com weighs in: "Witnesses to this low-flying jet ... told their story to journalists. Shortly thereafter, the FBI began to attack the witnesses with perhaps the most inane disinformation ever ? alleging the witnesses actually observed a private jet at 34,000 ft. The FBI says the jet was asked to come down to 5000 ft. and try to find the crash site. This would require about 20 minutes to descend."

FACT: There was such a jet in the vicinity ? a Dassault Falcon 20 business jet owned by the VF Corp. of Greensboro, N.C., an apparel company that markets Wrangler jeans and other brands. The VF plane was flying into Johnstown-Cambria airport, 20 miles north of Shanksville. According to David Newell, VF's director of aviation and travel, the FAA's Cleveland Center contacted copilot Yates Gladwell when the Falcon was at an altitude "in the neighborhood of 3000 to 4000 ft." ? not 34,000 ft. "They were in a descent already going into Johnstown," Newell adds. "The FAA asked them to investigate and they did. They got down within 1500 ft. of the ground when they circled. They saw a hole in the ground with smoke coming out of it. They pinpointed the location and then continued on." Reached by PM, Gladwell confirmed this account but, concerned about ongoing harassment by conspiracy theorists, asked not to be quoted directly.

Roving Engine
Claim: One of Flight 93's engines was found "at a considerable distance from the crash site," according to Lyle Szupinka, a state police officer on the scene who was quoted in the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. Offering no evidence, a posting on Rense.com claimed: "The main body of the engine ... was found miles away from the main wreckage site with damage comparable to that which a heat-seeking missile would do to an airliner."

FACT: Experts on the scene tell PM that a fan from one of the engines was recovered in a catchment basin, downhill from the crash site. Jeff Reinbold, the National Park Service representative responsible for the Flight 93 National Memorial, confirms the direction and distance from the crash site to the basin: just over 300 yards south, which means the fan landed in the direction the jet was traveling. "It's not unusual for an engine to move or tumble across the ground," says Michael K. Hynes, an airline accident expert who investigated the crash of TWA Flight 800 out of New York City in 1996. "When you have very high velocities, 500 mph or more," Hynes says, "you are talking about 700 to 800 ft. per second. For something to hit the ground with that kind of energy, it would only take a few seconds to bounce up and travel 300 yards." Numerous crash analysts contacted by PM concur.

Indian Lake
Claim: "Residents and workers at businesses outside Shanksville, Somerset County, reported discovering clothing, books, papers and what appeared to be human remains," states a Pittsburgh Post-Gazette article dated Sept. 13, 2001. "Others reported what appeared to be crash debris floating in Indian Lake, nearly 6 miles from the immediate crash scene." Commenting on reports that Indian Lake residents collected debris, Think AndAsk.com speculates: "On Sept. 10, 2001, a strong cold front pushed through the area, and behind it ? winds blew northerly. Since Flight 93 crashed west-southwest of Indian Lake, it was impossible for debris to fly perpendicular to wind direction. ... The FBI lied." And the significance of widespread debris? Theorists claim the plane was breaking up before it crashed. TheForbiddenKnowledge.com states bluntly: "Without a doubt, Flight 93 was shot down."

(Map by International Mapping)

FACT: Wallace Miller, Somerset County coroner, tells PM no body parts were found in Indian Lake. Human remains were confined to a 70-acre area directly surrounding the crash site. Paper and tiny scraps of sheetmetal, however, did land in the lake. "Very light debris will fly into the air, because of the concussion," says former National Transportation Safety Board investigator Matthew McCormick. Indian Lake is less than 1.5 miles southeast of the impact crater ? not 6 miles ? easily within range of debris blasted skyward by the heat of the explosion from the crash. And the wind that day was northwesterly, at 9 to 12 mph, which means it was blowing from the northwest ? toward Indian Lake.

F-16 Pilot
Claim: In February 2004, retired Army Col. Donn de Grand-Pre said on "The Alex Jones Show," a radio talk show broadcast on 42 stations: "It [Flight 93] was taken out by the North Dakota Air Guard. I know the pilot who fired those two missiles to take down 93." LetsRoll911.org, citing de Grand-Pre, identifies the pilot: "Major Rick Gibney fired two Sidewinder missiles at the aircraft and destroyed it in midflight at precisely 0958."

FACT: Saying he was reluctant to fuel debate by responding to unsubstantiated charges, Gibney (a lieutenant colonel, not a major) declined to comment. According to Air National Guard spokesman Master Sgt. David Somdahl, Gibney flew an F-16 that morning--but nowhere near Shanksville. He took off from Fargo, N.D., and flew to Bozeman, Mont., to pick up Ed Jacoby Jr., the director of the New York State Emergency Management Office. Gibney then flew Jacoby from Montana to Albany, N.Y., so Jacoby could coordinate 17,000 rescue workers engaged in the state's response to 9/11. Jacoby confirms the day's events. "I was in Big Sky for an emergency managers meeting. Someone called to say an F-16 was landing in Bozeman. From there we flew to Albany." Jacoby is outraged by the claim that Gibney shot down Flight 93. "I summarily dismiss that because Lt. Col. Gibney was with me at that time. It disgusts me to see this because the public is being misled. More than anything else it disgusts me because it brings up fears. It brings up hopes ? it brings up all sorts of feelings, not only to the victims' families but to all the individuals throughout the country, and the world for that matter. I get angry at the misinformation out there."

 

[The Judge]

Copying and pasting is fun stuff, isn't it Gregg? Particularly when the information comes from a credible source.

 

[marine]

Great stuff Judge! Well thought out, well written, clear, concise and to the point with little rambling about anything but the situation being discussed. I like it. Please, keep up the good work in spreading the truth about what happened that day! You are a hero in our eyes

Laying odds that King Donkey will respond with "you are a closed minded langley shill, i must block you immediately, you contribute nothing but lies to this discussion"

 

[IntenseOperator]

Copying and pasting is fun stuff, isn't it Gregg? Particularly when the information comes from a credible source.

Judge

I didn't know you were expert with a can of gas?

 

[The Judge]

Judge

I didn't know you were expert with a can of gas?

I'm not. I am however, an expert on the construction and behavior of high rise steel framed buildings.

On the other hand, our friend pt1guard is a basketball coach. Based on his past postings, I have no doubt that he is a very good basketball coach but that hardly qualifies him to question my expert opinion on the collapses of the World Trade Center towers.

 

[THE KOD]

very nice job there Judge

facts = credible evidence undisputable.


The truthers have no leg to stand on.

PS - this was the first time I ever read that the hijackers had guns and gas on board with them

Thats a croc. The gas maybe in bottles they could spray and cause flames..

The first thing they did was slit a flight attendants throat in front of the other passengers, that kinda puts them in control immediately .

they didnt need guns

 

[Kramer]

thanx krames,

you must be an official story dupe too ... sorry if thinking for myself offends you and you feel free to potshot and are offended when others attack me and i step up ... be an ostrich yourself ... your words pain me so:142smilie

my words don't pain you. you pain you.

 

[gardenweasel]

..i always liked pt1gard when we used to talk west coast college foots in that forum...as nice a guy as you`d ever want to meet...

he`s still that guy...i`m sure of it...

but,i have a theory...i think it`s that fricking ken osmond avatar....

that`s right...the counselor`s had that avatar since his inception here and he`s always been prone to astonishing bouts of stark,psychotic,vein popping,raving,foam at the mouth hatred toward his own country......

i always figured that ,when your only diet is cheetos and diet mountain dew,your only exposure to light is your computer monitor and your only exercise is changing your skivvies once a week,your ability to employ logic and reason suffers...

malnutrition,lack of vitamin d producing sunlight and lack of exercise all can have a negative effect on the brain....

but,now.......i`m thinking that fricking ken osmond avatar is kinda like "the monkey`s paw".....

hmmmmmm:mj03:

 

[pt1gard]

judgy,

nice sheaple tripe :mj07: ...

if you arent a coward why not listen to richard gage debunk your garbage and then comment on it :00hour ... and using mccain as a mouthpiece is hysterical, david ray griffin crucified his 'forward' in his book on the 9/11 commission, course you are oblivious to that ...


click

www.911underground.com

scroll to

2007-09-05_Bonnie_Faulkner_Interviews_Architect_Richard_Gage.MP3


ps do you know more than gage and other experts that arent affiliated with government shills and on their dole

 

[pt1gard]

krames,

thought you werent coming back, whats the problem, you are yet another that attacks first, runs and says and im not coming back yet whines further...

whats your take on 9/11, krames, 19 boxcutters the neocons couldnt even name as being on the manifest, and norad standing down as cheney lets something hit the pentagon :shrug: ... speak up my boy

just curious what you know on the subject, obviously nothing since you only use ad hominems and dont address the topic:142smilie

 

[pt1gard]

The Evil Lurking Within
Kay Griggs, Former Marine Colonel's Wife, Talks Again
About Military Assassin Squads, Drug Running, Illegal
Weapon Deals And Sexual Perversion Deep Within
The Highest Levels Of U.S. Military And Government
By Greg Szymanski
7-31-5

For 11 long years, Kay Griggs heard all the messy details from her military husband, usually while he was drinking before going into one of his drunken stupors. First going public in 1998 in an eight hour video interview with a truth-seeking Michigan pastor and FM radio broadcaster, she now is back after 9/11 to warn Americans to beware of the evil lurking within the highest levels of government, bound and determined to destroy America.

Katharine 'Kay' Griggs knows what it's like to have a gun pointed in her face. She knows what it's like to have her face slapped, her bones broken and her nose bloodied by her former bully of a husband, an active Marine Colonel and a man who she claims is "above the law and literally gets away with murder."

Virginia court documents and photos of her battered arms and legs tell the sad and brutal physical story of her failed marriage, a tumultuous 11 year roller coaster ride ending in 1999.

But the real story for public consumption isn't the private divorce court details. It is the secret military information about drug running, weapon sales, sexual perversion and assassination squads she learned firsthand from her husband, U.S. Marine Corps Col. George Raymond Griggs, now remarried and living in Mirror Lake, NH.

This isn't the first time Griggs is going public with her story about government mob-like hit squads and the sexually perverted secret "cap and gown and skull and bone society" her husband belonged to along with other high-ranking Marine officers and pubic officials.

She first went public in 1996 after receiving death threats, being rescued by Sarah McClendon, former senior member of the White House press corps, who believed her story and took Griggs under her wing, giving her a place to stay and important advice about how to stay alive when dealing with military operatives.

"I became a whistle blower and received death threats," said Griggs this week in an extended telephone conversation from her Tidewater, VA. home. "I finally wound up living for safety reasons with Sarah, the dean of the White House Press Corps, who had been with every president since FDR and was in Army intelligence and also an attorney's daughter from Texas."

Advised by McClendon to go public without being able to get the mainstream media to listen, she traveled to Adrian, MI on the advice of a friend to do a long extended taped interview with Pastor Rick Strawcutter, a preacher and owner of a 500 watt pirate FM station at 99.3 on the dial in Lenawee County.

Strawcutter, who believed in free speech radio and empowering the public with the truth, produced two extended interviews finally released in 2000, one being a two hour version called "Sleeping With The Enemy" and the other an unedited eight hour version available at http://www.kaygriggstalks.com

Since then Griggs said she went back to her Virginia home, tried to piece her life together and essentially talked to private groups or anybody who would take the time to listen.

Now this week Griggs decided to tell her story again, saying "I will keep repeating it to anyone" and adding after 9/11, the war in Iraq, the London bombings and the fear of terrorism, the "American people are at a point were they are ready and willing to hear the truth."

Although they may be shocked, Griggs said the "truth will set you free," even if it means facing up to the highest form of corruption, including sexual perversion and government sponsored mob-like hits orchestrated by high-ranking military and government officials.

"My former husband George, who is a trained assassin, calls the people he is involved with the members of The Firm or The Brotherhood. If you are in the click, you are above the law and literally can get away with murder. For years, mostly when he was drinking, he told me how he and others in this elite military group would kill people," said Griggs, as she mentioned name after high-powered name and story after-detailed story about sexual pervasion, murder, military hit squads, brainwashing and mind control, all activities sanctioned, participated in and condoned by a group of military and political elite.

"There were many other things and people he told me about which were startling, things I'll tell you later. But George is like a robot, glazed eyes and all. While he drinks, he sort of comes alive. It is hard to explain unless you actually see him. He told me he was the No. 1 shooter for a long time for a group of powerful people at the top. If a guy is too honest, for example, they get rid of him."

When asked how large an inside group it was and how she survived after going public with such damning information about so many high powered names, she added:

"I just keep myself and my story in the public eye. I am a descent, honest person who believes in telling the truth. I have a deep, abiding faith and trust in God. I also come from a strong-minded, strong-willed family and I am not afraid of generals and admirals.

"As far as the sheer numbers of people involved in this cap and gown, skull and bones secret society, it's hard to say. But it is based on old friendships, college and prep school relationships, covering up secrets and sexual perversion.

"My husband told me about all the sexually perverted rituals, like anal and oral sex in coffins at drunken parties and running naked in the woods at Bohemian Grove. Then there was the last time I saw George was in 2001 and he was telling me to keep quiet, but I think he knows I will never stop telling the truth."

During numerous drinking binges over many years, one of the main things that sticks out in Griggs' mind was how easily her husband rationalized killing small number of innocent people and how he was able to somehow justify the killings if it accomplished a strategic goal for the elite group involved.

"Who are these people?" Griggs repeated after being asked the same direct question. "In general, they are first generation German sons, mostly who run things in the military through tight friendships made in Europe and at war colleges. Psyops is a controlling group and Paul Wolfowitz is a major player, as are the many Zionists on this side of the Atlantic.

"Truth is light. And these guys are anxious to collect the global power now in the few hands of their Freemasonic ( French Macons ) brotherhood's elite hands. It is a very, very small group and a rather homogenized group of global top down existentialist Zionists and socialists. In short, Nazi's who came to the U.S. when Hitler, their boy, turned on them in 1933.

Griggs said other recognizable names and major players she learned from her husband's arrogant ramblings besides Wolfowitz and other nondescript military and civilian names, involved in what she called a Zionist global takeover, included Donald Rumsfeld, George H. Bush, Dick Cheney, Henry Kissinger and Andy Fine, to name a few.

"After what I learned from George about "Rummy," as he called him and idolized him and the others, is that they all operate from this secret little, sick society and are all basically cowards and bullies. And I don't believe I should ever keep quiet about who they are because the only way we are going to change there behavior is to shed light on what they are doing and show how ludicrous , sick and inept their behavior really is.

"My husband George just idolized "Rummy" and thinks he is just wonderful when basically he is nothing more than an in-the-closet-Nazi. Also, George liked to brag how he and Wolfowitz were down in Indonesia in the 1970s, down there training young assassins.

"After what I heard all those years and now putting it into prospective after 9/11, I think they are trying to destroy America. Their whole game is all about war, selling weapons and creating a militaristic society. I know first hand from listening to my husband, they will do anything - I mean anything including murder - to get what they want."

Although Griggs said her husband never mentioned anything specific about 9/11 during their marriage, she claims he hinted several times that "war-gaming and airplane crashes" were necessary elements to control and manipulate the American population.

Putting many of her husband's comments together with other acquaintances made through him, she had this to say about 9/11:

"Before 9/11, there were some things which let me know that it was involved with war gaming going on at ACT Commands center in Suffolk. War games and diversions and manipulations of American public opinion he said are "necessary." George explained some examples such as airplane "crashes" and the bombing by the Israeli Lebanese Bekka valley recruits who blew up the Marine Corps barracks. I believe my husband knew ahead of time 9/11 was going to occur.

"I know that there was a war game going on via Tampa, I think it was called Bright Star, which was being run on 9/11 by a weird and insecure USMC General who was in charge while the Army head was conveniently away in the Near East.

"I am sure 9-11 was a joint and combined military operation, using boys who were recruited via A.Q. Khan's Israeli network in Pakistan and South Africa through Zionists in Hamburg. I believe that certain MI6 British Zionists with the Ian Goodwin-Peter Goodwin-Basil Cardinal Hume Yorkshire network were also involved in funding and recruiting these guys. It was a large and ongoing operation to set up and involved lots of CIA Zionists and lots of funny money."

The Early Years

Griggs grew up in the elite Virginia Southern class, the child of a Reserve Military family of Scottish and French Huguenot descent. Raised with strict Christian ideals, moral character, deep faith and impeccable ethics, she carried with her the headstrong outspoken nature of her father and the truth-seeking characteristics of her mother.

However, a victim of old Southern male chauvinism and backward traditions, she was married young in an arranged fashion to John Garland Pollard III, the wealthy grandson of a Virginia Governor, who lived off his inheritance in a typical aristocratic Southern-style plantation.

"Looking back it was just horrible and suffocating," said Griggs, who after getting a divorce in 1983 went on to teach after getting a degree in history with a specialty in Virginia history and the Scottish Reformation.

After resettling in a Virginia Beach home and working as an Asst. Director of the Chamber of Commerce, she was about to meet a dashing Marine Colonel who would forever change the course and direction of her life.

Second Marriage To Col. Griggs

After renting the main portion of her house to Col. Griggs, the couple dated for two months and were quickly married, a speedy decision the young bride would quickly learn to regret.

The story of the couple's courtship is of little importance, but what happened afterwards regarding the colonel's drunken ramblings takes center stage.

"He started drinking, did a lot of heavy drinking and at first I thought I could change him," said Griggs, who listened closely over the years about her husband's role as a military assassin and his role as a military trainer who brought new, young assassins into the fold. "He started talking openly about murder, corruption, assassinations and lies. It was just incredible the names that were involved and the people who were being killed.

"He gave me very detailed and graphic descriptions about how Waco was carried out, as well as how many other hits went down, including Malcolm Kerr, the head of the American University in Beirut and Ron Brown, who was trying to take away the State Department's monopoly on drug money and arms deals.

"My husband would get into these crazed stupors where he would be running around the house naked and there were times I would find him lying in the grass that way.

"I learned about how he was sexually molested by homosexual teachers at the elite Hun School, where a lot of the others in this small elite group also attended, including the members the Saudi Royal family. He told me how sex is used to control, intimidate and groom boys into this type of military service from a young age.

"He mentioned how many of The Brotherhood, as he liked to call them, are members of the "Cap and Gown" Princeton group or the "Skull and Bones" Yale crowd and how they performed sexually perverted induction ceremonies with anal and oral sex performed inside coffins."

During the final two years of the marriage, Griggs said her husband basically disappeared. When she finally decided to blow the whistle on her husband's activities and others surrounding him, she met privately with attorney and former CIA Director William Colby, seeking advice.

'I really thought I would get some help, but Colby was later found dead," said Griggs about Colby whose body was found eight weeks after he disappeared on April, 27, 1996, while canoeing near his Rock Point, Maryland, vacation home.

"Then I started getting death threats, had my house burglarized, my car messed with and every time I would try to get the FBI or police to act, strangely nothing would be done. They would do things like steal my underwear, leave black dots on all my blouses and leave twelve screw drivers on my kitchen counter. They would do strange things like this, which if you think about it, is really hard to explain to the police without them thinking your are crazy.

"I later found out I was flagged by Marine General Al Gray, my husband's boss who put the wheels in motion on much of the criminal activity. He flagged me as a trouble maker knowing I was a free thinker who was not about to keep quiet like all the other military wives who knew too much. Finally, I sought help from Sarah McClendon, who basically saved my life."

After weathering the storm of harassment in Washington D.C., she was encouraged by friends to publicize her story nationally through the alternative media since major publications wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. In 1998, she then met Pastor Strawcutter who believed in her and who basically told the same story Griggs is telling today but in much more detail.

Pastor Strawcutter's 1998 Taped Interview
Besides running a ministry in Adrian, MI., Strawcutter's main passion is truth-telling, his philosophy turning out to be a perfect match for Griggs when she finally contacted him one morning in 1998 as he broadcasted live during drive-time on his pirate FM radio station.

"I remember one morning getting this call during a commercial break and then we put Kay on live for about 45 minutes. I couldn't believe what I was hearing," said Strawcutter this week by telephone from his Michigan church. "After the show, I arranged for Kay to come to Michigan with her documentation and photos of the story."

When Griggs arrived with her husband's diary and photos providing credible documentation for some of what she claimed, Strawcutter taped her story for over eight hours.

After the taping session, he recalls out of all the controversial stories he worked on, the Griggs story was one of the most troubling and difficult to deal due to the sensitive nature of the allegations and the number of high-ranking names involved.

Finally, after sitting on the story for a year, Strawcutter decided to release it in two forms, the first being a 2 hour edited video version of the interview which he distributed under the title of "Sleeping With The Enemy" and the other being simply the longer unedited eight hour version.

And like Griggs recounted this week from her Virginia home, the Strawcutter tapes are even more detailed about how members of The Brotherhood operate in a world of treachery, deceit, lies, murder, drug running, sex slavery and illegal weapon sales, all in the name of forming a new world order.

"People need to know the truth about 9/11, Waco, the Oklahoma City bombing and, of course, what Kay Griggs is saying," said Strawcutter, who for a long time on his FM station had been testing the waters of truth by broadcasting controversial stories, many coming from the likes of Michael Collins Piper and other American Free Press writers, an alternative paper that also delves into subjects taboo in the mainstream media.

"I basically believed she was telling the truth and decided to go with the story as she told it."

Asked if he was ever harassed for bringing the Griggs tapes public, he added:

"No, not really. I never worry about things like that. But I do know after winning a landmark federal case to stay on the air in the 1990s, the feds came down real hard one me about three months after 9/11 with another legal challenge to my station which had become wildly successful, becoming the second top rated show in the county."

Shortly, thereafter, Strawcutter was forced to take his brand of truth-telling radio of the air waves in the wake of legal roadblocks and challenges designed by the government to bankrupt his efforts.

Katharine 'Kay' Griggs Today

The head strong, truth telling woman who first provided America with her shocking story in 1996, is really no different today although she readily admits the government is still trying to ruin her financially and still monitors her closely.

Although still under the government microscope, her energy and curiosity remain strong as ever.

"With all that's happening in the world, the time is right now for truth," said Griggs. "I think America can handle the truth now and I basically want people to know that my husband and the people involved with him are really nothing but cowards and bullies. But they are, at the same time, dangerous, evil people that must be stopped. I am not a vindictive person and I also am not seeking publicity. I simply want people to know the truth about how these people are trying to destroy this country."

And still trying to "connect the dots" in an attempt to expose The Brotherhood, she added:

"I'm in the midst of research on the headmistress of my Episcopal girls' school, St. Margaret's, who spent years working with MI6 at Cheltenham!! This is Victor Rothschild's group with 6 representing the six-sided star and MI5 being more Masonic but still not sure about all of this yet."

Single and living in the same home she shared with her former military husband, Griggs still holds firm to her strong Christian beliefs, saying she will talk to anybody who is interested in listening since she firmly believes "truth is light and only the truth will set you free."

How To Listen To The Kay Griggs Tapes

There are three video versions of her story in distribution. The first is Pastor Strawcutter's original two hour version called "Sleeping With The Enemy" available at his web site at http://www.kaygriggsvideo.com

 

[pt1gard]

is this what sheaple want

is this what sheaple want

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5NJoZRYOJk

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

 

[pt1gard]

58 years later we have forgotten

58 years later we have forgotten

Speech on the Veto of the McCarran Internal Security Act

Harry S. Truman
September 22, 1950


[#133;]This is an omnibus bill containing many different legislative proposals with only one thing in common: they are all represented to be "anticommunist." But when the many complicated pieces of the bill are analyzed in detail, a startling result appears.

H.R. 9490 would not hurt the Communists. Instead, it would help them.

It has been claimed over and over that this is an "anticommunist" bill?a "Communist control" bill. But in actual operation the bill would have results exactly the opposite of those intended?

It would help the Communists in their efforts to create dissension and confusion within our borders.

It would help the Communist propagandists throughout the world who are trying to undermine freedom by discrediting as hypocrisy the efforts of the United States on behalf of freedom.

Specifically, some of the principal objections to the bill are as follows:

It would aid potential enemies by requiring the publication of a complete list of vital defense plants, laboratories, and other installations.

It would require the Department of Justice and its Federal Bureau of Investigation to waste immense amounts of time and energy attempting to carry out its unworkable registration provisions.

It would deprive us of the great assistance of many aliens in intelligence matters.

It would antagonize friendly governments.

It would put the Government of the United States in the thought-control business.

It would make it easier for subversive aliens to become naturalized as U.S. citizens.

It would give Government officials vast powers to harass all of our citizens in the exercise of their right of free speech.

Legislation with these consequences is not necessary to meet the real dangers which communism presents to our free society. Those dangers are serious and must be met. But this bill would hinder us, not help us, in meeting them. Fortunately, we already have on the books strong laws which give us most of the protection we need from the real dangers of treason, espionage, sabotage, and actions looking to the overthrow of our Government by force and violence. Most of the provisions of this bill have no relation to these real dangers?

The idea of requiring Communist organizations to divulge information about themselves is a simple and attractive one. But it is about as practical as requiring thieves to register with the sheriff. Obviously, no such organization as the Communist Party is likely to register itself voluntarily?

There is no more fundamental axiom of American freedom than the familiar statement: In a free country, we punish men for the crimes they commit, but never for the opinions they have. And the reason this is so fundamental to freedom is not, as many suppose, that it protects the few unorthodox from suppression by the majority. To permit freedom of expression is primarily for the benefit of the majority because it protects criticism, and criticism leads to progress.

We can and we will prevent espionage, sabotage, or other actions endangering our national security. But we would betray our finest traditions if we attempted, as this bill would attempt, to curb the simple expression of opinion. This we should never do, no matter how distasteful the opinion may be to the vast majority of our people. The course proposed by this bill would delight the Communists, for it would make a mockery of the Bill of Rights and of our claims to stand for freedom in the world?

We need not fear the expression of ideas?we do need to fear their suppression.

Our position in the vanguard of freedom rests largely on our demonstration that the free expression of opinion, coupled with government by popular consent, leads to national strength and human advancement. Let us not, in cowering and foolish fear, throw away the ideals which are the fundamental basis of our free society?

I do not undertake lightly the responsibility of differing with the majority in both Houses of Congress who have voted for this bill. We are all Americans; we all wish to safeguard and preserve our constitutional liberties against internal and external enemies. But I cannot approve this legislation, which instead of accomplishing its avowed purpose would actually interfere with our liberties and help the Communists against whom the bill was aimed.

This is a time when we must marshal all of our resources and all the moral strength of our free system in self-defense against the threat of Communist aggression. We will fail in this, and we will destroy all that we seek to preserve, if we sacrifice the liberties of our citizens in a misguided attempt to achieve national security?

No considerations of expediency can justify the enactment of such a bill as this, a bill which would so greatly weaken our liberties and give aid and comfort to those who would destroy us. I have, therefore, no alternative but to return this bill without my approval, and I earnestly request the Congress to reconsider its action.

 

[pt1gard]

The unseen cost of the war in Iraq
Iraq



Published: 10-Feb-2004
By: Jonathan Miller



The true extent of US casualties in Iraq are still unknown. This has fuelled suspicion that the administration may be hiding the true human cost of the war and its aftermath. Channel Four News has been allowed a rare opportunity to meet some of America's wounded soldiers.



In a dark corner of Andrews Air Force base on the outskirts of Washington DC, America's war-wounded come home.



The human cost of humbling tyrants.



No ceremony, no big welcome.



More than 11,000 medical evacuees have come through Andrews in the past nine months, the Air Force says.



Most, we suspect, from Iraq. But that's 8,000 more than the Pentagon says have been wounded there.



Most of those wounded in action come through the vast Walter Reed Medical Center in Washington.



The American public is, for the most part, unaware that the true casualty count of the war in Iraq may actually be higher than official figures suggest.



The apparent discrepancy is fuelling suspicion that the US government's got something to hide.



There'd been a suicide at the Center the previous week. Another of what the Pentagon terms a "non-hostile" death - in other words, one that won't figure on its list of fatalities,



We were the first foreign TV crew to film at Walter Reed Army Medical Center since the invasion of Iraq one year ago.



One patient, Staff Sergeant Maurice Craft, had his leg blown off in November by a roadside bomb in Baghdad. He'd gone to liberate a land whose people turned out to be hostile. It was a nasty surprise :



"Doing that kind of operation over there, you don't really know who the enemy is. They use cowardly tactics, women and children."



Another patient, Staff Sergeant Roy Mitchell, lost his leg in Afghanistan three months ago:



"The ones that are covered are the KIAs. The ?Killed in Action?. I'm not taking anything away from those soldiers. They deserve that coverage. But there is also us. To say we're forgotten, that would be going just a little bit too far to say we're forgotten but I'd say we are the missed soldiers of the army."



Says Sgt Craft, "A lot of people are getting hit. What they are showing are the deaths. They are not showing this here. They have a death toll but they're not showing the number of people being hit and being amputated because of their injuries.



Channel 4 News: "And in you're opinion, the number of wounded in action, the number wounded generally, is quite high?"



"Yes."



Students of modern military history could be forgiven a sense of deja-vu. It was to Walter Reed Medical Center that America's war-wounded from Vietnam were brought.



Numbers-wise, there's still no comparison. 58,000 Americans died in Vietnam; fewer than 600 have been killed in Iraq. But psychologically, Vietnam has a resonance that still shapes politics here.



Come November, President Bush, who never fought in South East Asia, may well be up against Senator John Kerry, a decorated Vietnam vet. Could that be why the dead and wounded return to Washington in the middle of the night with no fanfare?



The images the US government does want us to see depict the return of America?s heroes ? such as arrival back at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, of the 101st Airborne division after a year in Iraq.



It was to have been a six-month tour of duty. They are the survivors, the lucky ones.



But when it comes to the wounded, an astonishing situation has arisen: the Pentagon's figures clash wildly with those of the US Army.



The Pentagon lists 2,604 wounded in action and just 408 "non-hostile wounded".



But the Army says many thousands more have been medically evacuated from the conflict zone.



Why the discrepancy? Well, the Pentagon doesn't count as victims soldiers who come back with brain injuries or psychiatric disorders, those hit by friendly fire or those who've crashed in their military vehicles.



You could call them "the missing wounded" of Operation Iraqi Freedom.



Some suspect the government's been deliberately massaging the figures.



According to Steve Robinson, from the National Gulf War Resource Center:



"Information warfare is a tenet of war. It's part of the strategy in war and it's something we employ in Iraq to win to gain the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. And in some cases it looks as if the Department of Defense is employing information warfare back doing this at home by not releasing accurate information or making it difficult to obtain information. That prevents the story from being told or it makes it take longer for the story to be told or it frustrates people to where they don't even try to tell the story."



Steve Robinson is no anti-war liberal. A former Special Forces soldier with 20 years' service, he now briefs Presidents. He believes we're not being told the full story.



"People don't want bad news stories coming out from this war and at every level where I need information, every time I need information from the Department of Defense or the Department of Veterans' Affairs, about the injuries of this war, I run unto obstacles. None of this is national security. None of this will cause the collapse of the coalition. It's just information that we need to understand what's happening."



Heath Calhoun, 24, wasn't able to walk off the plane with his brothers from the 101st Airborne. This was how he broke the news from his hospital bed in Mosul to his 21-year-old wife Tiffany : "I called her and I told her she could have the good news or the bad news. I said I've got my legs blown off, but the good news is I'm coming home."



Heath's Humvee crew was hit by a rocket propelled grenade.



"I didn't know what had happened. It hit and I saw a big burst of white powder and than I saw white and went flying into the air. I could see my legs were mucked up and blood coming out of them and I screamed.



He still wears the ID tag of his friend Morgan, who was blown to pieces.



Was it all worthwhile?



"I can't answer that question yet. If Iraq becomes and democracy, yes, but if it all falls apart, I think it will be in vain. We'll have to work that out."



This is a patriotic part of the south. Fort Campbell, headquarters of the 101st Airborne, straddles the state line between Tennessee and Kentucky. There is an awkwardness here when it comes to asking questions about America's adventure in Iraq.



There's a lot to work out and there's a lot going on inside the heads of some of these soldiers.



I went to meet some injured Iraq veterans on the base who'd formed a support group. Not a very macho thing to do, they admitted, but they said they needed to get stuff off their chests.



Pat Collins from New Jersey is 38. He took shrapnel though his neck in Baghdad and is in permanent pain.



"I was injured on patrol in Baghdad. Couple guys ambushed us. I've got nerve damage. A lot of pain. I took a lot of morphine. Readjusting. Getting my life back on track. I'm not going to do what I did before. Time to move on and find something else to do. I'm not going to what it was I did before."



His anger is, in some cases, producing political transformation.



Pat: "I was a Republican ... I'm going to be incredibly active in the Democratic Party once I get out."



And who's his democratic preference, we asked?



Pat: "Kerry."



It was at this point that we were asked to stop filming. Other members of the group had grown uneasy that things had taken a poltical turn.



Says Terry James, a Psychiatric Counsellor : "The only other war I can closely compare this with is Vietnam. When we went to Somalia, Bosnia, Panama, etc. once war was declared over, it was over. But this one is not over even though it' s declared over."



President Bush may have declared major combat operations in Iraq over ten months ago, but fresh planeloads of wounded soldiers continue to fly into Andrews Air Force base every week, unseen by most Americans.



If the US government was to admit to the true human cost of Operation Iraqi Freedom, the wounded as well as the dead, then how many Americans would support George Bush and his war?