a quick poll--need some input

maverick2112

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Judge..........

and any others who believe the official story........

Forget about everything being discussed here and be honest with me about one simple question........

Lets have your honest answers.........no name calling........no nothing........all I am asking (politely) is your opinion ON THIS QUESTION.........

With all the news about what was happening on 911 and being broadcast by all the national media that day........

WHY WAS IT NEVER MENTIONED ABOUT THE CLOSE TIES THE BUSHS AND BIN LADENS HAD IN THEIR BUSINESS DEALINGS ???(on 911)

Very simple and straightforward.........

I mean is it not news worthy and important if someone commited a criminal act against my city and we had been in business dealings in the past this info would not be in the headlines?????

Why did I have to find out about this info from other sources and not the major networks........I feel like they were trying to hide info from the american public..........
 
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maverick2112

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Judge...........wheres the rest of those planes parts in those pictures??

and you mention 1 guy who says he "had the body parts of crew members on his hands"

wheres the other witnesses who colaborate this gentlemans statement...............

Surely there would be more than 1 guy handling these "Body Parts"..........
 

THE KOD

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WHY WAS IT NEVER MENTIONED ABOUT THE CLOSE TIES THE BUSHS AND BIN LADENS HAD IN THEIR BUSINESS DEALINGS ???(on 911)

Very simple and straightforward.........

..
......................................................

I will not name call and respond.

I have read where that has been mentioned in articles.

But now that you have said it, show us the facts.

Show us the proof you have that the connection to Bush and Bin Laden family existed.

Unfortunately there are no facts that prove this.

Yeh Bin Ladens family left the US in a hurry after 911 but it was more likely to not be involved in a world covered hostage crisis.
 

maverick2112

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......................................................

I will not name call and respond.

I have read where that has been mentioned in articles.

But now that you have said it, show us the facts.

Show us the proof you have that the connection to Bush and Bin Laden family existed.

Unfortunately there are no facts that prove this.

Yeh Bin Ladens family left the US in a hurry after 911 but it was more likely to not be involved in a world covered hostage crisis.

Fair enough.........

http://www.denverpost.com/rodriguez/ci_4319898

Some items from article..........

Was this because of President George Bush's close ties to the bin Laden family?

In 1978, Bush and Osama bin Laden's brother, Salem bin Laden, founded Arbusto Energy, an oil company based in Texas.

Several bin Laden family members invested millions in The Carlyle Group, a private global equity firm based in Washington, DC. The company's senior advisor was Bush's father, former President George H.W. Bush. After news of the bin Laden-Bush connection became public, the elder Bush stepped down from Carlyle.

Interestingly, on Sept. 11, 2001, members of the Carlyle Group - including Bush senior, and his former secretary of state, James Baker - were meeting at the Ritz Carlton Hotel in Washington, D.C., along with Shafiq bin Laden, another one of Osama bin Laden's brothers.

While all flights were halted following the terrorist attacks, there was one exception made: The White House authorized planes to pick up 140 Saudi nationals, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, living in various cities in the U.S. to bring them back to Saudi Arabia, where they would be safe. They were never interrogated.

Unfortunately there are no facts that prove this.
.:shrug:
 
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The Judge

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Judge..........

and any others who believe the official story........

Forget about everything being discussed here and be honest with me about one simple question........

Lets have your honest answers.........no name calling........no nothing........all I am asking (politely) is your opinion ON THIS QUESTION.........

With all the news about what was happening on 911 and being broadcast by all the national media that day........

WHY WAS IT NEVER MENTIONED ABOUT THE CLOSE TIES THE BUSHS AND BIN LADENS HAD IN THEIR BUSINESS DEALINGS ???(on 911)

Very simple and straightforward.........

I mean is it not news worthy and important if someone commited a criminal act against my city and we had been in business dealings in the past this info would not be in the headlines?????

Why did I have to find out about this info from other sources and not the major networks........I feel like they were trying to hide info from the american public..........
......................................................

I will not name call and respond.

I have read where that has been mentioned in articles.

But now that you have said it, show us the facts.

Show us the proof you have that the connection to Bush and Bin Laden family existed.

Unfortunately there are no facts that prove this.

Yeh Bin Ladens family left the US in a hurry after 911 but it was more likely to not be involved in a world covered hostage crisis.
Scott, you are apparently uninformed on this matter. That does not mean that you are a bad guy, simply that you are unfaliliar with the history,

Osama Bin Laden, the Saudi millionaire-turned-renegade charged with international terrorism, bears a striking similarity to the late Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale. The resemblance is more than just facial. Like Bhindranwale, Bin Laden was created by the very forces which are now seeking to destroy him. Experts are almost unanimous in saying that bin Laden is a creature of a US foreign policy which recklessly fed and nurtured him and his Islamic warriors with million of dollars worth of money and arms to fight the Soviet occupation in Afghanistan. The money was funnelled largely through Pakistan's maverick Inter-Services Intelligence. Even at that time, Bin Laden and his holy warriors had made it clear that the US was as much anathema to them as the communists.

The CIA then tried to destroy the same camps it helped set up, Robert Fisk, a British writer who covered the region and who met bin Laden at his camp during this time, stated in an interview on National Public Radio. Fisk said Bin Laden did not appear to be such a fearsome international terrorist that the US was making him out to be. On the contrary, he was isolated, lonely, virtually unlistened to, and was constantly trying to know what was happening in other parts of the world.

US officials have made Bin Laden out to be a terrorist mastermind operating out of a high-tech cave filled with satellite phones and other gizmos overseeing a worldwide network of extremist organisations. Bin Laden is said to be around 43 years old. Born in Jeddah in Saudi Arabia, he is the youngest son of Mohammed bin Laden, a wealthy Saudi who founded the Bin Laden Group, a construction firm that thrived on Saudi government contracts. Osama Bin Laden is said to have inherited some $300 million from his father. In his mid-20s he left Saudi Arabia for Afghanistan to fight in the so-called Jihad against the Soviet forces in Afghanistan. Several accounts have it that he was cultivated by the CIA, which helped him set up camps in and around Khost, the same town now bombed by US forces.

After the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, bin Laden returned to Saudi Arabia to work in his father's construction business. But he soon began to oppose the Saudi royal family, especially after the Gulf War when US troops landed in Saudi Arabia and remained there. He launched a local movement to force US troops out of the country, railing against the defilement of the Muslim holy places of Mecca and Medina.

But he was thrown out of the country by the rulers and was virtually disowned by his family. He relocated to Sudan in 1991 and resumed his construction operations there. Sudanese officials said they expelled him in 1996 under US pressure after Washington suspected him to be indulging in terrorist activities.

US officials think he and his followers were involved in the bombing of US training facility in Riyadh in 1995 which killed seven people (including two Indians) and the Khobar Towers bombing in 1996 which killed 19 US servicemen.

Bin Laden relocated to Afghanistan in 1996 and has been on the US terrorism watchlist since. Early in 1998, the US ambassador to UN Bill Richardson contacted the Afghan Taliban rulers to ask for bin Laden but was reportedly turned down. In several interviews during this time, bin Laden openly issued threats to the US, calling for a holy war to evict the infidels from Saudi Arabia. In February of 1998, he is said to have issued a fatwaurging holy Islamic warriors to kill Americans everywhere, whether military or civilian. In June of the same year, he is said to have presided over a conclave of extremist leaders from across the world in Peshawar under the umbrella of the Islamic Front, which endorsed the fatwaand decided upon an undisclosed course of action.




Maverick, it is indeed newsworthy and it is a travesty that the details have not been made more public. There is no question that the Bush and Bin Laden families have long standing business ties. Their relationship is a matter of public record.

However, Osama was disowned by his family many years before the 9/11 tragedy and there has never been any connection between the Al Quida leader and our current president or his father.

Please understand that there are few Americans who have a lesser opinion of George W. Bush's presidency than I do. Regardless of that opinion, I have never seen any credible evidence that would lead any rational person to believe that President Bush was in any way implicated in the events of 9/11.

It is important to me that I am very clear on this topic. I emphatically believe that the Bush family's partnerships with the Bin Ladens from the '70's had absolutely nothing to do with Al Quiada's attack on our country.
 
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maverick2112

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It is indeed newsworthy and it is a travesty that the details have not been made mor public. There is no question that the Bush and Bin Laden families have long standing business ties. Their relationship is a matter of public record.

However, Osama was disowned by his family many years before the 9/11 tragedy and there has never been any connection between the Al Quida leader and our current president of his father.

Please understand that there are few Americans who have a lesser opinion of George W. Bush's presidency than I do. Regardless of that opinion, I have never seen any credible evidence that would lead any rational person to believe that President Bush could be in any way implicated in the events of 9/11.

It is important to me that I am very clear on this topic. I emphatically believe that the Bush family's partnerships with the Bin Ladens from the '70's had absolutely nothing to do with Al Quiada's attack on our country.


You know I agree with a lot of what you say BUT it still pisses me off that info like this was not disclosed to the american public the day of the attacks........its tactics like this that a lot of americans feel like they are being lied to and hoodwinked........I am not even putting blame on anyone but is it to much to ask for such important infomation to be disclosed at the time of the events........

I would have even settled for someone like Dan Rather to say on CBS Sept 11th......" the bushs and Bin Laden familys have been in business together since the 70's"....a simple statement like that would have done it for me........but nada nothing..........

You write......

"However, Osama was disowned by his family many years before the 9/11 tragedy and there has never been any connection between the Al Quida leader and our current president of his father."..........not debating this point BUT they were doing business with OBL's family which is a connection that should have been disclosed........I mean if I never even knew who you were but was in business with your brother you dont think this is info that should be told and not hidden????
 

The Judge

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"However, Osama was disowned by his family many years before the 9/11 tragedy and there has never been any connection between the Al Quida leader and our current president of his father."..........not debating this point BUT they were doing business with OBL's family which is a connection that should have been disclosed........I mean if I never even knew who you were but was in business with your brother you dont think this is info that should be told and not hidden????
Yes, I certainly do.

Please note that I have edited my earlier post in order to agree with some of the points that you had made.
 

maverick2112

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However, Osama was disowned by his family many years before the 9/11 tragedy and there has never been any connection between the Al Quida leader and our current president or his father

This is irrelevant........I still would have liked to been told that the Bin Laden family were major players in the oil and construction business including the construction of portions of the twin towers.........all these ties just are to coincedental for me.......
 

The Judge

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I still would have liked to been told that the Bin Laden family were major players in the oil and construction business including the construction of portions of the twin towers.........all these ties just are to coincedental for me.......
Now you have gone too far. The Bin Laden construction company had no part in the construction of the WTC towers.
 
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pt1gard

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i have been owned and disgraced:mj07:

you use PM and other nonsense to hide all the lies that have been proven lies time and again ... why wont any of the official story experts debate truthers in an open forum, i.e. even national TV ... you dont think that would garner an audience ...

please address all the toughies i ask you, or didnt PM have them handy for cut and paste like you did their feeble attempts at answering the norad stand down ... the PM pussies wont even answer phone calls or stand up to public debate anymore--some source they are, judgy:142smilie

judge why wont they release the pentagon video tapes, and from citgo, etc--the moussaoui trial has been over for ages ...

i have brought up points making yours look silly and you use dubious resources and yellow journalism to prove the neocons arguments ...

judgy, did todd beamer ever say LETS ROLL, yes or no

judgy, what about babs olson faked phone calls from seat back phones on flight 77, the fbi admitted they never happened:shrug: :shrug:

are cell phone calls possible at 30k feet ...

the debris on the pentagon is planted bs anyone who has researched that knows it ... judgy, did flight 77 fly 5' off the pentagon lawn without leaving and scorch marks and never skid, just flew level enough to remain every so slightly off the ground ... have you ever heard of april gallop, she was a pentagon worker who crawled out of the hole saying she saw no plane parts

judge, you havent proven anything to anyone with a brain, of course your hick and vacuous pals snap their carrot to your tripe but that's all good, you are a texan who backs bush's lies

you are battered and fried in the skillet like the rest of the jokes who never answer these easy and obvious questions i have presented over and over here yet myself and mav and agent and DRG are the kooks :00hour
:mj07:
 
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THE KOD

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Fair enough.........

In 1978, Bush and Osama bin Laden's brother, Salem bin Laden, founded Arbusto Energy, an oil company based in Texas.

.....................................................................


OK you state that as a fact with no back up. Just a statement .

Now look at this. Arbusto Energy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Arbusto Energy (sometimes referred to as Arbusto Oil)[1] was a petroleum and energy company formed in Midland, Texas, in 1977, by the President of the United States George W. Bush and a group of investors which included Dorothy Bush, Lewis Lehrman, William Henry Draper III, Bill Gammell, and James R. Bath.

It was later revealed that Bath made an investment of $50,000 while representing Salem bin Laden of the Saudi Binladin Group.

This fact became controversial after the September 11, 2001 attacks due to Salem bin Laden being an older, half-brother of Osama bin Laden, who has claimed responsibility for the planning and financing of the attacks. The Bush family's business dealings with the bin Laden family were criticized by many; a small group allege that the Bush/bin Laden business relationship led to Osama bin Laden being groomed as a CIA asset.[2]

Upon Salem bin Laden's death in a 1988 airplane crash, in Texas, his interest in Arbusto (along with other Binladin Group assets), passed to Khalid bin Mahfouz.
.................................................................

FACT

This was the oil business for christs sake. Its not unusual to be dealing with rich Saudis .

So Salem Bin Laden did not found Arbusto Energy , he just contributed 50 K through someone else.

Now thats a little differant. Mav . Do you see how words are twisted around ? Thats what makes me so skeptical about truthers. These are not facts your listing.

ok answer that and we can move on
 

The Judge

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i guess there are other architects who speak the truth

http://www.ae911truth.org/

they are not all shills from texas:00hour
Gage is a hack with a meager following of professionals.
What Gage is most certainly is not is a structural engineer and the number of engineers in his "roster" is even smaller than the number of architects listed. There are only four here, but Gage has managed to get 38 to sign up at the website as of 17 October 2007 (that numer is now 45 as of 01/26/08).

In September 2006, membership of the American Society of Civil Engineers was just under 140,000. Again, I will mention that not all the members of the ASCE have positively stated their opinion of the WTC collapses. I only mean to show that the members of AE911Truth have a long way to go in convincing their fellow members about their suspicions.

And again I say that Gage has not revealed the number of people who have heard his presentation and not signed his petition.

It should be noted that all engineers are not created equal. Engineers come in many different specialties.

And a look at the Architects & Engineers roster for A&E 911 Truth shows this clearly. Of the licensed engineers that have filled out profiles, there is a sewer and street designer, a specialist in solar energy and housing, a fire protection engineer, another energy engineer, water resource and management, a computer engineer, an asbestos consultant, hazardous waste management, industrial wastewater, computer network engineer, process engineering in the natural gas industry, and a chemical engineer. Clearly all of these people cannot be speaking in their field of expertise here.

Gage does list two structural engineers on his page, however. It would be interesting to hear why they alone of their thousands of colleagues have fallen for this presentation, because I will demonstrate that no one should.

As on the last slide, an appeal to large numbers can be just as fallacious as an appeal to authority. The crucial test is in the way that facts are recognized and interpreted. It is there that either the 38 or the 140,000 will be vindicated.
 

pt1gard

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i guess like the rest you have solved all the easy obvious questions i have posted without even attempting to answer them ... ala babs olsons phone calls admitted by the fbi as lies ... :mj07:


i will list another 20 you cant face or reply to or you can comb thru the archives and duck the same ones where marine and the rest of the sheaple have conveniently avoided them
:00hour


why is gage a hack and all the others that laugh at the legend the neocons have constructed and you are the expert:142smilie

no pilot couldve duplicated flight 77, are you an expert pilot too as well as wtc expert, even the flight recorder proves it flew 200' higher then the neocons lies:shrug: ... 118 fdny testified they heard explosions inside the wtcs ... there are audio tapes of a demolition countdown at wtc 7 ... there was molten metal gurgling at 3k degrees months after 9/11 and you well know that wouldnt happen until another 1000 degrees was somehow manifested above what fuel would provide, where is this missing 1000 degrees come from ... and why were the columns cut cleanly at sharp angles, you can see this puzzler in pictures, and why was all the mess shipped out overseas asap away froma crime scene, wouldnt insurance companies investigate, why no forensics like prof. jones performed showing thermate ...

is everyone who testifies a kook but judgy from texas who adores his president ... i guess you are calling hundreds of fdny, police officers, cia, fbi, sibel edmonds, william rodriguez, april gallop, etc etc kooks ...:mj07: :mj07:

answer them all, judgy, dont run and hide ... prove you are the man for krames and the picture hick and marine and the rest of lackeys... you could solve the mystery for all of us once and for all:
:00hour
 
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pt1gard

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Cindy Sheehan Hands Nancy Pelosi Letters from 8,000 People Asking for Impeachment
Submitted by davidswanson on Wed, 2008-01-16 13:04. Cindy Sheehan | Impeachment
By Donna Norton, Sonoma County PDA


This Is What Happened--And It's Disturbing

The event was very low-key and "normal." On Monday, January 14th, Cindy Sheehan brought the impeachment letters (over 8,000) she had collected in 8 or 9 large bins and displayed them symbolically on a table in front of the Federal Building in San Francisco. There wasn't much going on, only a few people entering the building. Cindy's table was to the side and away from the door, nothing was blocked or being disturbed. There were a few people with signs, some non-MSM media, and I don't know, maybe 30 people had come for presenting the letters and petitions. It was a week-day morning, so most people were at work. Cindy, Cynthia McKinney, and a few other local officials and figures spoke. (Let me emphasize, it was NOT rowdy, disruptive, or disorderly IN ANY WAY. Could have been a Chamber of Commerce group holding a press conference to announce their presentation of an award to a government official.)

I don't know the details concerning the arrangements with Pelosi's office, as I just got a call the evening before to see if our Sonoma County PDA impeachment group would like to join Cindy and bring our petitions (3,000) for presentation. The arrangement seemed to be that a staff member from Pelosi's office would either come out to officially accept the documents, or would accept them in the lobby. This was fine-- citizens (over 11,000) presenting their wishes to their representatives. No one planned or expected to "storm" the building, take over anyone's office, or make a scene. Just formally transfer the citizens' documents. The call came that a staff member was on the way down to accept the letters and petitions in the lobby.

We picked up the bins and began to enter the building. Other people were entering with no problem. (It was the normal security routine--take off your shoes, remove all metal objects, and present your ID.) When our group began to enter, we were barred. We could load the bins onto the conveyer, but that was it. We were told "demonstrators" and "protesters" were not allowed in the building. Of course we questioned this. I questioned it! Nothing loud or disruptive, just trying to grasp the message. No further or more detailed explanation was forthcoming. I noticed that almost immediately a few police or security officers appeared. So we were forced to abandon the bins, now just sitting there on the other side of the glass, and walk away. (As I say, the intent was NOT to create a distruptive "demonstration"--which almost certainly would have been negatively exploited by the MSM.)

It left me with some extremely disturbing thoughts as a citizen. Basically, citizens who DISAGREE are excluded from the process of THIS government. It's no longer OUR government, as we've been excluded. If we DISSENT (offer an opposing view), we're labeled and perceived as DANGEROUS. You can see where this framing leads.

It's time those who haven't been paying attention realize how deep this framing goes in remaking America.

How healthy is a government that suppresses dissent--that labels it as dangerous? As a nation we've always considered governments that suppress dissent as dangerous and anti-democratic. Our perceptions have been correct--suppressing dissent is a threat to democracy. It makes no difference if it's practiced "over there" or here. So what's led us to embrace the policies we've opposed and defined as anti-democratic? The phrase, "9/11 changed everything," comes to mind. Dramatic changes in government policies and laws have indeed taken place since we adopted this phrase as the frame for those changes. It's provided a vehicle of fear to steer us away from our inherent democratic moorings. 9/11 is our new historical anchor-point. It's used as a reference to remake us into what we've steadfastly rejected as a people. But 9/ll is simply a point in the longer history of this nation. This nation's much deeper roots go back to our Constitution and the principles it embodies. Dissent and open debate are not suppressed in that document, they're protected as critical elements of a democracy.

The citizens gathered at the Federal Building in San Francisco were "dissenters" in resisting the new framing of 9/11 that's remaking their government. They were presenting documents demonstrating support for our Constitutional anchor--urging support for impeachment of those who have undermined it.

It's interesting that supporting the Constitution is considered unwelcome and threatening to our post-9/11 government; that those supporting the Constitution have become the "dissenters"; and, that dissent is being suppressed as a matter of policy. Is this the new America we've bought into?
 

The Judge

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Gregg, your assertion that I "adore" our President is blatently false and if you have ever read any of my other posts in the Political Forum you would know this.

I have tried to rationally answer some of the questions that you have raised but it has become abundantly clear that you are not interested in debating the subject at hand and are much more interested in playing childish name calling games.

This matter is not nearly as important to me as it seems to be to you so I will simply leave you with the facts and explanations that I have politely offered and wish you luck on your quest. It is not a matter of "running away" as you are so fond to say but rather, that I have more important things to do with my time than argue with someone who clearly cares nothing about debating the matter at hand.

I feel sorry for you as like others have said, I remember when you were a very likable guy but this mission of yours seems to have become the driving force in your life and frankly, I am not interested in participating in your charade any longer. I truly wish you the best in all of your future endeavors but the condecending tone that you have taken toward me is not something that I can continue to tolerate.
 

SixFive

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judge adores the president, as in President Bush?? :mj07: :142smilie lmfao, he's one of Bush's biggest bashers here in the political forum.
 

Kramer

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judge adores the president, as in President Bush?? :mj07: :142smilie lmfao, he's one of Bush's biggest bashers here in the political forum.

why did you bump this thread six, let's just let
pt talk to himself for the next year. We all know
how pathetic his stance is. Just let him go apeshit
all by himself.
 

marine

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don't forget about the "easy explanation" of the missing 19 rector building pt1gard.

I'm still waiting to hear your take on that.
 

pt1gard

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hey krames,

do you have any thoughts of your own on this subject ... i have never heard what you think happened that day other than attack me like most sheaple ...

you are right judge, i assume anyone who wont answer the simple questions of 9/11 must support Bush, esp. a texan, my bad if thats the case ... but why dont you try to face these basic things other than your assertions you know more than all these other architectural experts ...

now, about all the explosions in the wtcs, have you ever heard anyone, fdny and emt or police, say there werent explosions :shrug: --please show me if im wrong ... highly respected and decorated brave men have testified in droves they heard explosions and believe bombs were planted ...

why did the CIA created ISI wire 100k to atta :shrug: ... why wont the gov. release the flight 77 wreckage to the public ... why did the PM experts back out of their debate on THE VIEW with the LOOSE CHANGE KIDS ...

gosh i dunno, krames and judge, i just have all these questions for suckers who cant answer them
:shrug:
 
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