America's shooting gallery continues, 12 die in NY

[gardenweasel]

the answer is right here....couldn`t be clearer(unless you`re impaired)...

""Even with the current ban in place, Washington has one of the highest per-capita murder rates in the country, but the Supreme Court said concerns about gun violence were not enough to override constitutional rights ""...

/thank me very much...

"and in other news,the supreme court decides that water is wet"...

/so obvious...:grins:

 

[Nelson]

OK, here's another "simplistic and limited data set" for you "thinking forum members".

If you add accidental shootings and suicides to the 10,000 gun deaths by murder in the US every year, the number rises to approx. 29,000 deaths by gun in the US every year.

Now, what this “simplistic and limited data set” reveals to this non-thinking forum member is that we Americans are twice as likely to shoot ourselves, a family member or an innocent bystander as we are a violent criminal or other intended target.

Rebuttal???

Rebuttal? You haven't established anything.

Some people use guns to shoot others or themselves. Some people have accidents with them. The same could be said of knives or cars or any other powerful, potentiallly dangerous tool.

The fact remains that there are what, 100 million gun owners in America, and 99+% of them use their guns responsibly and effectively, both to hunt and to deter millions of crimes a year. Most of which incidents do not involved shootings - as would be obvious if you dared to think rather than bleat.

Just come out and state your position:

Because I, Trench Fickler, lack the brains and emotional control to operate a gun, 300 million Americans ought to be denied the most effective means of defending themselves, even though all statistical evidence shows that the crime rate goes down where gun possession goes up.

 

[Trench]

no...what i`m saying is that people kill people....not guns...not steak knives...not baseball bats...not cars...not alcohol...

People kill people? Hmmm... I've never heard that before.
This non-thinking forum member's gonna have to put his thinking cap on.
People kill people. Not guns? Hmmm...

Seriously, Weez. Is that all ya got? :mj07:

 

[gardenweasel]

People kill people? Hmmm... I've never heard that before.
This non-thinking forum member's gonna have to put his thinking cap on.
People kill people. Not guns? Hmmm...

Seriously, Weez. Is that all ya got? :mj07:

don`t blame me:shrug: ..blame the the constitution and the supreme court..

i guess you`re arguing that madison accidentally wrote "right of the people" instead of "right of the government" in the bill of rights?....

lol.

 

[Terryray]

OK, here's another "simplistic and limited data set" for you "thinking forum members".

If you add accidental shootings and suicides to the 10,000 gun deaths by murder in the US every year, the number rises to approx. 29,000 deaths by gun in the US every year.

Now, what this ?simplistic and limited data set? reveals to this non-thinking forum member is that we Americans are twice as likely to shoot ourselves, a family member or an innocent bystander as we are a violent criminal or other intended target.

Rebuttal???

Well, duh! Porportionally more handguns around than other substitutes, they will be used more. But I don't think death or suicide by knife or shotgun is necessarily a nicer time than by handgun.

To make the point I think you are driving at with respect to murders and suicides, you must demonstrate that a reduction in the handgun homicide rate will be accompanied by a reduction in the overall homicide and suicide rates. Comparative evidence here, intra-US and international, is much less clear and valid. Switzerland, for example, has the 3rd lowest homicide rate, though handgun laws there are more liberal than all countries you mention except the US. In fact, most US states with high homicide rates have stricter handgun laws than Switzerland.

Now, the point isn't that my comparisons "rebut" yours, the point is there are many complex variables at play here (my first post mentioned a few more of the many) we can spend all day going into. I suggest you start studying the books I mentioned if you have any desire to learn about this, rather than a desire to score debate points on a forum and expose your analytical shallowness.

 

[The Sponge]

howz`at?....i missed the impeachment...:shrug:

trying to change the subject?....can you have a cogent thought without "bush"?....

/it`s spring and bds is still in full bloom...

Not when i see hypocrites running loose on this site.

 

[gardenweasel]

To make the point I think you are driving at with respect to murders and suicides, you must demonstrate that a reduction in the handgun homicide rate will be accompanied by a reduction in the overall homicide and suicide rates. Comparative evidence here, intra-US and international, is much less clear and valid. Switzerland, for example, has the 3rd lowest homicide rate, though handgun laws there are more liberal than all countries you mention except the US. In fact, most US states with high homicide rates have stricter handgun laws than Switzerland.

.

theres a very simple solution to t.f.`s conundrum....all he has to do is move to chicago.....specifically,oak park or evanston, il.(gun ban locales)....

matter of fact,they`re also nuclear free zones!...

so,by t.f.`s logic,not only will he be safe from gun violence....but,if a nuclear war breaks out, he`ll have that covered to boot!......

/oh brother...:lol:

 

[SixFive]

127 posts in this abomination of a thread and the douche-nozzle that started it only has that first post. spytheweb, stick around and debate instead of being a hit-and-run tool. :0corn

 

[gardenweasel]

127 posts in this abomination of a thread and the douche-nozzle that started it only has that first post. spytheweb, stick around and debate instead of being a hit-and-run tool. :0corn

excellent point....this has always been his modus operandi....

he`s always manipulated others into carrying his water....

it`s amazing...

 

[Trench]

I suggest you start studying the books I mentioned if you have any desire to learn about this, rather than a desire to score debate points on a forum and expose your analytical shallowness.

Yet the fact remains that in spite of all your posturing, none of you pseudo-intellectual conservatives seem to be able to answer a simple question. One more time...

If guns aren't the problem, then how do you explain a gun murder rate in America that's more than 100 times the gun murder rate of industrialized nations that have enacted stricter gun control laws?

 

[Chadman]

Wow. So...all I have to do...according to you illiberals...is apply a taboo-adjective to any facts or data I don't like...and they go away.

What a cool trick.

Being an illiberal is fun!

Interesting that you took my comment personally. I wonder why you would be so sensitive about it? I wasn't arguing anything, really, just making an observation that crops up every so often around here. It also doesn't appear that you are going away, so, not sure what your concern is with my comment.

But hey, that illiberal word thingy was really funny. Wait for it...wait for it...

:mj07: :mj07: :mj07:

There you go.

 

[Trench]

this thread is an abomination yet works on so many levels

You mis-spelled it, but :iagree: smurph. The Obama nation does work on so many levels.

 

[gardenweasel]

there was/is a gun ban in d.c.? ...

so the murders every weekend are by knife? ..bow and arrow?...

for some strange reason, the criminals didn't obey the law....only law-abiding people did...

no one knows why....?...:142smilie

btw..trench...i see that after 300 posts you`ve already become a forum "moderator"....pretty impressive. ...


/cigar store indians are more authentic...:lol:

 

[MadJack]

btw..trench...i see that after 300 posts you`ve already become a forum "moderator"....pretty impressive.

...

he is NOT a moderator

 

[znine_7]

So I read this entire thread just now. Entertaining to say the least.....

One question, why was the following post completely ignored by almost everyone?

I mean, doesn't this pretty much sum it up? :shrug:

[Read it and weep, boy. Unlike you, a self-important ignoramus, Lott has studied the question.]

Question: What does the title mean: More Guns, Less Crime?

John R. Lott, Jr.: States with the largest increases in gun ownership also have the largest drops in violent crimes. Thirty-one states now have such laws?called "shall-issue" laws. These laws allow adults the right to carry concealed handguns if they do not have a criminal record or a history of significant mental illness.

Question: It just seems to defy common sense that crimes likely to involve guns would be reduced by allowing more people to carry guns. How do you explain the results?

John R. Lott, Jr.
John R. Lott, Jr. is a resident scholar at American Enterprise Institute. He was previously the John M. Olin Visiting Law and Economics Fellow at the University of Chicago Law School.


Lott: Criminals are deterred by higher penalties. Just as higher arrest and conviction rates deter crime, so does the risk that someone committing a crime will confront someone able to defend him or herself. There is a strong negative relationship between the number of law-abiding citizens with permits and the crime rate?as more people obtain permits there is a greater decline in violent crime rates. For each additional year that a concealed handgun law is in effect the murder rate declines by 3 percent, rape by 2 percent, and robberies by over 2 percent.

Concealed handgun laws reduce violent crime for two reasons. First, they reduce the number of attempted crimes because criminals are uncertain which potential victims can defend themselves. Second, victims who have guns are in a much better position to defend themselves.

Question: What is the basis for these numbers?

Lott: The analysis is based on data for all 3,054 counties in the United States during 18 years from 1977 to 1994.

Question: Your argument about criminals and deterrence doesn't tell the whole story. Don't statistics show that most people are killed by someone they know?

Lott: You are referring to the often-cited statistic that 58 percent of murder victims are killed by either relatives or acquaintances. However, what most people don't understand is that this "acquaintance murder" number also includes gang members killing other gang members, drug buyers killing drug pushers, cabdrivers killed by customers they picked up for the first time, prostitutes and their clients, and so on. "Acquaintance" covers a wide range of relationships. The vast majority of murders are not committed by previously law-abiding citizens. Ninety percent of adult murderers have had criminal records as adults.

Question: But how about children? In March of this year [1998] four children and a teacher were killed by two school boys in Jonesboro, Arkansas. Won't tragedies like this increase if more people are allowed to carry guns? Shouldn't this be taken into consideration before making gun ownership laws more lenient?

Lott: The horrific shooting in Arkansas occurred in one of the few places where having guns was already illegal. These laws risk creating situations in which the good guys cannot defend themselves from the bad ones. I have studied multiple victim public shootings in the United States from 1977 to 1995. These were incidents in which at least two or more people were killed and or injured in a public place; in order to focus on the type of shooting seen in Arkansas, shootings that were the byproduct of another crime, such as robbery, were excluded. The effect of "shall-issue" laws on these crimes has been dramatic. When states passed these laws, the number of multiple-victim shootings declined by 84 percent. Deaths from these shootings plummeted on average by 90 percent, and injuries by 82 percent.

For other types of crimes, I find that both children as well as adults are protected when law-abiding adults are allowed to carry concealed handguns.

Finally, after extensively studying the number of accidental shootings, there is no evidence that increasing the number of concealed handguns increases accidental shootings. We know that the type of person who obtains a permit is extremely law-abiding and possibly they are extremely careful in how they take care of their guns. The total number of accidental gun deaths each year is about 1,300 and each year such accidents take the lives of 200 children 14 years of age and under. However, these regrettable numbers of lives lost need to be put into some perspective with the other risks children face. Despite over 200 million guns owned by between 76 to 85 million people, the children killed is much smaller than the number lost through bicycle accidents, drowning, and fires. Children are 14.5 times more likely to die from car accidents than from accidents involving guns.

Question: Wouldn't allowing concealed weapons increase the incidents of citizens attacking each other in tense situations? For instance, sometimes in traffic jams or accidents people become very hostile?screaming and shoving at one another. If armed, might people shoot each other in the heat of the moment?

Lott: During state legislative hearings on concealed-handgun laws, possibly the most commonly raised concern involved fears that armed citizens would attack each other in the heat of the moment following car accidents. The evidence shows that such fears are unfounded. Despite millions of people licensed to carry concealed handguns and many states having these laws for decades, there has only been one case where a person with a permit used a gun after a traffic accident and even in that one case it was in self-defense.

Question: Violence is often directed at women. Won't more guns put more women at risk?

Lott: Murder rates decline when either more women or more men carry concealed handguns, but a gun represents a much larger change in a woman's ability to defend herself than it does for a man. An additional woman carrying a concealed handgun reduces the murder rate for women by about 3 to 4 times more than an additional man carrying a concealed handgun reduces the murder rate for men.

Question: Aren't you playing into people's fears and prejudices though? Don't politicians pass these shall-issue laws to mollify middle-class white suburbanites anxious about the encroachment of urban minority crime?

Lott: I won't speculate about motives, but the results tell a different story. High crime urban areas and neighborhoods with large minority populations have the greatest reductions in violent crime when citizens are legally allowed to carry concealed handguns.

Question: What about other countries? It's often argued that Britain, for instance, has a lower violent crime rate than the USA because guns are much harder to obtain and own.

Lott: The data analyzed in this book is from the USA. Many countries, such as Switzerland, New Zealand, Finland, and Israel have high gun-ownership rates and low crime rates, while other countries have low gun ownership rates and either low or high crime rates. It is difficult to obtain comparable data on crime rates both over time and across countries, and to control for all the other differences across the legal systems and cultures across countries. Even the cross country polling data on gun ownership is difficult to assess, because ownership is underreported in countries where gun ownership is illegal and the same polls are never used across countries.

Question: This is certainly controversial and there are certain to be counter-arguments from those who disagree with you. How will you respond to them?

Lott: Some people do use guns in horrible ways, but other people use guns to prevent horrible things from happening to them. The ultimate question that concerns us all is: Will allowing law-abiding citizens to own guns save lives? While there are many anecdotal stories illustrating both good and bad uses of guns, this question can only be answered by looking at data to find out what the net effect is.

All of chapter seven of the book is devoted to answering objections that people have raised to my analysis. There are of course strong feelings on both sides about the issue of gun ownership and gun control laws. The best we can do is to try to discover and understand the facts. If you agree, or especially if you disagree with my conclusions I hope you'll read the book carefully and develop an informed opinion.



Copyright notice: ?1998 by the University of Chicago. All rights reserved. This text may be used and shared in accordance with the fair-use provisions of U.S. copyright law, and it may be archived and redistributed in electronic form, provided that this entire notice, including copyright information, is carried and provided that the University of Chicago Press is notified and no fee is charged for access. Archiving, redistribution, or republication of this text on other terms, in any medium, requires the consent of both the author and the University of Chicago Press.<

John R. Lott, Jr.
More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws, Second Edition
? 1998, 2000, 332 pages
Paper $14.00 ISBN: 978-0-226-49364-0

For information on purchasing the book?from bookstores or here online?please go to the webpage for More Guns, Less Crime. The first edition is in cloth binding.

 

[Trench]

OK, so I?ve had my fun on this thread, but just to set the record straight, I?m not really the Birkenstock wearing, cappuccino drinking, friend of the PC police that a couple guys tried to paint me as. In fact, I?m one of the 100 million gun owners in America. I?m also a hunter and I've got a cabinet full of sporting guns.

And quite frankly, to the silent majority, who neither owns a gun nor hunts, it?s embarrassing to be associated with chicken-little types running around crying ?Beware the gun-grabbers!?.

Nowhere in this thread have I advocated the banning of guns for personal protection, hunting or sport-shooting. But I do believe we need to tighten gun restrictions to address the escalating epidemic of gun violence in this country. Buying a gun shouldn?t be as easy as walking into a gun show or answering an ad in the classified section of your local newspaper. That?s the cost of a free and SAFE society.

 

[THE KOD]

Nowhere in this thread have I advocated the banning of guns for personal protection, hunting or sport-shooting. But I do believe we need to tighten gun restrictions to address the escalating epidemic of gun violence in this country. Buying a gun shouldn?t be as easy as walking into a gun show or answering an ad in the classified section of your local newspaper. That?s the cost of a free and SAFE society.

...................................................

I have no problem with people owning guns

if they fawk with me, I shoot them

 

[jer-z jock]

I dont think guns or people do the killing but actually its the bullet. I've never been afraid of a man or a gun(which is a piece of metal) but when you hear the pop(or bullet taking flight) thats when fear kicks in.:shrug: Banning guns will only create more petty criminals, now the cells will be full of drug dealers and home owners that got caught or had to use a weapon ILLEGALLY to defend his or her property or family. I personally think it should be the right of the citizen to own if they so choose, as well as I think a criminal should be allowed to own a gun once time is served or his or her dues and debts are paid to society, as long as a gun WASN'T used in a prior crime. If a guy gets caught elluding police on a motocycle he is labeled as a felon and has nio right to own or carry a gun, where was he a danger to society? ON A MOTOCYCLE--SO SHOULD WE TAKE HIS LISCENSE TO DRIVE? Rules and laws of this country are totally screwed up

 

[Tcas]

Some good old family fun:


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[Trench]

btw...did you know that law enforcement is included in those statistics?...

/obviously no

what say you now,birkenstock wearing metrosexual?

/crickets....

Ummm... Yes. Law enforcement officers are Americans too Weasel.

There have been 542 law enforcement officers murdered in the line of duty over the past decade.

So 54 of the 10,000 gun murders per year in the US are law enforcement officers.

Ummm... Was there something that even resembles a point that you were trying to make here Weasel?