bbc, chadman. redsfann, & smurphy...

smurphy

cartographer
Forum Member
Jul 31, 2004
19,914
140
63
17
L.A.
What Palin does


1. Steps on the story of Obama?s speech (and convention), and possibly the bounce coming from them, and wipes them off the news cycle. The Sunday news shows will be all-Palin, all of the time.

2. Sends Republicans into their convention on a huge head of steam.

3. Wipes out the image of McCain as the crotchety elder and brings back that of the fly-boy and gambler, which is much more appealing, and the genuine person.

4. Revs up the base AND excites independents, which no one else in the party, or perhaps in the world, could have accomplished.

5. Puts youth, change, and history on both of the tickets.

6. May detach some young people, especially women.

7. May attach some women pissed off about Hillary.

8. As a pro-life super-achiever, puts feminists in a tizzy.

9. Revives some of the double-edged nature of the Democratic primary, which featured a black vs. a
female trail-blazer, and put both sides on notice on sensitivity issues. Democrats used to raising charges of racism against Obama?s critics may face charges of sexism and/or condescension if they try to diss her.

10. Steps on Obama?s claims to have been a reformer, as he reformed nothing (much less the corrupt mare?s nest of Chicago arrangements), while she was a dragon-slayer up in Alaska.

11. As a mother of five, one a Down Syndrome baby, helps her side take on the Democrats on abortion extremism and the Born Alive bill.

12. Reignites the deep and unhealed stresses inside the Democrats, some of whom will now wonder more loudly than ever why they didn't pick Hillary.

13. Counters Michelle in a way Cindy couldn?t.

14. Counter-intuitively, makes the issue of Obama?s light resume more potent than ever. Her lack of experience is no more than his is. And he?s--to use a term from Alaska, and the Iditarod--their lead dog.

Well you didn't disappoint. Good rationalizations. Of course many of them are just filler with no real substance, but theoretically they all sound good.

:142smilie It's funny that the 'change' mantra that the GOP has mocked for 6 months is suddenly now part of their strategy.

As far as stealing the limelight from the Dems, it looks like Gustav will steal it back.;)
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,517
212
63
Bowling Green Ky
Well you didn't disappoint. Good rationalizations. Of course many of them are just filler with no real substance, but theoretically they all sound good.

:142smilie It's funny that the 'change' mantra that the GOP has mocked for 6 months is suddenly now part of their strategy.

As far as stealing the limelight from the Dems, it looks like Gustav will steal it back.;)

Will be interesting Smurph--you have vaid point --but two way street.

I dare Obama to come out and rant on her qualifications--in the next few weeks there will be comparisons of accomplishments between the 2--and its no contest--which may be Gops intent.
 

smurphy

cartographer
Forum Member
Jul 31, 2004
19,914
140
63
17
L.A.
Will be interesting Smurph--you have vaid point --but two way street.

I dare Obama to come out and rant on her qualifications--in the next few weeks there will be comparisons of accomplishments between the 2--and its no contest--which may be Gops intent.

It's not his style to come after people like that anyway. I don't think he's ever criticized qualifications. He probably won't say anything bad about her at all. Biden will likely try to burn her in the dabates. I guess THAT'S when we'll find out her mettle. Her advantage is that people assume he will destroy her. Anything better than that might be considered a win for her.

But in general, I think the fact that she's such an unkown does not help their chances. I get the feeling loyal GOP voters want some 'comfort food' at a time like this, not something they never tried before.
 

gardenweasel

el guapo
Forum Member
Jan 10, 2002
40,588
234
63
"the bunker"
i just noticed that palin is giving a speech in pennsylvania and a large part of it is exactly the same as the speech she gave in her interoduction speech yesterday....word for word.......

????

that i don`t get....

i`m sure that`s what they do as they go to different stops.....obviously they can`t write a new speech for each stop....

but that was on national t.v.....everybody already heard it.....:nooo:
 
Last edited:

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
She probably had no material prepared, and probably can't extemporaneously speak on major issues of our day, unlike Barack. I think she will continue to be a non-factor, despite the fake euphoria of the right talkers I've heard talking about how great a pick this was. Considering she and McCain met once before she got the call, I doubt she is ready to go, to any extent.
 

kosar

Centrist
Forum Member
Nov 27, 1999
11,112
55
0
ft myers, fl
What Palin does


1. Steps on the story of Obama?s speech (and convention), and possibly the bounce coming from them, and wipes them off the news cycle. The Sunday news shows will be all-Palin, all of the time.

2. Sends Republicans into their convention on a huge head of steam.

3. Wipes out the image of McCain as the crotchety elder and brings back that of the fly-boy and gambler, which is much more appealing, and the genuine person.

4. Revs up the base AND excites independents, which no one else in the party, or perhaps in the world, could have accomplished.

5. Puts youth, change, and history on both of the tickets.

6. May detach some young people, especially women.

7. May attach some women pissed off about Hillary.

8. As a pro-life super-achiever, puts feminists in a tizzy.

9. Revives some of the double-edged nature of the Democratic primary, which featured a black vs. a
female trail-blazer, and put both sides on notice on sensitivity issues. Democrats used to raising charges of racism against Obama?s critics may face charges of sexism and/or condescension if they try to diss her.

10. Steps on Obama?s claims to have been a reformer, as he reformed nothing (much less the corrupt mare?s nest of Chicago arrangements), while she was a dragon-slayer up in Alaska.

11. As a mother of five, one a Down Syndrome baby, helps her side take on the Democrats on abortion extremism and the Born Alive bill.

12. Reignites the deep and unhealed stresses inside the Democrats, some of whom will now wonder more loudly than ever why they didn't pick Hillary.

13. Counters Michelle in a way Cindy couldn?t.

14. Counter-intuitively, makes the issue of Obama?s light resume more potent than ever. Her lack of experience is no more than his is. And he?s--to use a term from Alaska, and the Iditarod--their lead dog.





5 early reasons it was the Dumbest choice ever by McCain.

1. She Undercuts the ?Obama Is Inexperienced? Argument

A favorite and, in my opinion, effective line of attack from the GOP is the experience angle. Obama?s real government resume is thin in comparison to McCain?s. Some serious points have been scored with this line of attack. I think a large reason Obama hasn?t broken away further in the polls is simply because the inexperience question is resonating with the undecided voters. People sort of like the Obama story, but they are balking at electing someone with so little experience.

Now, the Republican candidate has chosen someone with almost no experience to be next in line to lead the free world. Pretty much any charge of Obama?s inexperience can be answered quickly and deftly by the Democrats.

The experience factor will be thrust firmly into the limelight at the Vice Presidential debate. Biden could potentially expose what a lightweight she is, and bring up uncomfortable questions about McCain?s judgement.

This is no trivial matter. McCain has handed the Democrats a significant gift here, and this alone could finish his candidacy.

2. She Delivers Nothing Geographically, Nor Maybe Demographically

About a month ago there had been some noise that Alaska had been trending for Obama in the polls. However, I?m not so sure Alaska?s 3 electoral delegates are much of a concern anyway. Beyond that, Palin has appeal to the rugged Western voter types. Unfortunately, most of these states are safely GOP as it is (Utah, Arizona, Alaska, Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana). She won?t be bringing anything new into play.

I?m not really a proponent of the ?VP brings in a geographic region? theory anyway. The last time I?ve heard it working was Lyndon Johnson delivering Texas for Kennedy. That?s what, almost 50 years ago? What I?m more interested in with the Palin pick is the demographics.

Supposedly (see #1 above) she?s supposed to bring in those Hillary voters. I hate to point out the obvious, but I really don?t see too many of them crossing party lines for a woman that is pro-life. This single issue alone could really cut into any of the votes that McCain hopes to steal. Those rugged Western women that she really, really appeals to are already safely McCain supporters.

3. This Looks Like A Desperate Pick

Let?s face it, in the political arena, perception is huge. If this pick is spun as a desperate attempt by McCain (and it?s plausible that it can be so spun), then this could be big trouble for the GOP.

Now the questions come: Why is McCain desperate? What?s wrong with his candidacy? Now he looks weaker. Once he looks weaker, suddenly that becomes the narrative. Once that becomes the narrative, he may not be able to recover from that.

Obama hit McCain on the judgement issue in his acceptance speech. This adds further ammunition to that argument. Can McCain?s judgment be trusted when he makes such a VP pick out of desperation?

4. Palin Underscores McCain?s Age Problem

The McCain camp has done a solid job of keeping the age issue tamped down. This pick, however, brings it back into the limelight.

First, as mentioned in #6, Palin is very, very inexperienced. Someone with her resume would not conceive of running for President. The idea that she?s the next in line for the job will make people ponder that hypothetical a bit. What are the chances of her actually being our president? Well, with a 72 year old candidate, they are better than most. People will start thinking again about McCain?s age, and that?s not what the GOP wants on voters? minds.

Second, Palin is 44. This is younger than Obama. This is a stark contrast to McCain?s 72. She?s young enough to be his daughter, and that does not look so good. Image is a lot in politics and having McCain and his daughter running together is not exactly the image that his campaign wants to put out there.

5. Palin Has A Whiff Of A Political Scandal Of Her Own

Palin had her sister?s ex husband fired from his government office position. I don?t know how much traction this abuse of power scandal has, but it could be rather embarrassing for McCain if it goes much further and the Dems dig deeper in to it.
 

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
I seriously don't think the argument that Wayne, Sean Hannity and others are making that Sarah has more experience than Obama holds up to truthful examination. The fact that she has been governor of a very small state that has very little going on budget-wise, activity-wise, or other-wise for a couple of years, and was mayor of a very small town shows her to be qualified to be much of anything. But if that's seriously enough for you guys, go for it.

Compared to Obama, who has impeccable collegiate credentials (Harvard and Columbia) with honors, juris doctor, president of law review, etc., state legislator of a major metropolitan area for eight years, with several pieces of legislation sponsored, state senator from one of the largest electoral states in the country for three more years - I think she pahlin's in comparison - rather greatly. And to say she has more experience? Hardly, IMO.

Unless you count fishing...she probably kicks his ass at that.
 

AR182

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 9, 2000
18,654
87
0
Scottsdale,AZ
it's a very easy question...

where do you want the experience..at the top of the ticket or #2 on the ticket.....& that is what the american voters are going to ask themselves...

and for those who don't think ms. alaska will not bring in more voters than biden....you're kidding yourselves....
 

smurphy

cartographer
Forum Member
Jul 31, 2004
19,914
140
63
17
L.A.
and for those who don't think ms. alaska will not bring in more voters than biden....you're kidding yourselves....

what? oh boy. i kinda almost feel sorry for you at this point. you are in a dreamworld.:scared
 

Cie

Registered
Forum Member
Apr 30, 2003
22,391
253
0
New Orleans
I seriously don't think the argument that Wayne, Sean Hannity and others are making that Sarah has more experience than Obama holds up to truthful examination. The fact that she has been governor of a very small state that has very little going on budget-wise, activity-wise, or other-wise for a couple of years, and was mayor of a very small town shows her to be qualified to be much of anything. But if that's seriously enough for you guys, go for it.

Compared to Obama, who has impeccable collegiate credentials (Harvard and Columbia) with honors, juris doctor, president of law review, etc., state legislator of a major metropolitan area for eight years, with several pieces of legislation sponsored, state senator from one of the largest electoral states in the country for three more years - I think she pahlin's in comparison - rather greatly. And to say she has more experience? Hardly, IMO.

Unless you count fishing...she probably kicks his ass at that.



The experience is at the top of the Republican ticket and at the bottom of the Democratic ticket. Where would you prefer the experience???
 

Cie

Registered
Forum Member
Apr 30, 2003
22,391
253
0
New Orleans
where do you want the experience..at the top of the ticket or #2 on the ticket.....& that is what the american voters are going to ask themselves...


Wow. Justposted almost identical thought without refreshing the thread. Great minds........:shrug:
 

smurphy

cartographer
Forum Member
Jul 31, 2004
19,914
140
63
17
L.A.
The experience is at the top of the Republican ticket and at the bottom of the Democratic ticket. Where would you prefer the experience???

It depends on how important of a role each plays. I have a feeling Obama will allow Biden to use his strengths in the administration. ...I would take Biden over McCain for sure when it comes to foreign affairs.

Look at the Bush administration. ...He surrounded himself with Cheney, Rumsfeld, Woflawicz, etc. Bush had NO foreign experience and was easy prey for those chickenhawks.

Lets see who else would be in the Obama administration. So far, he is showing excellent judgement in who he puts around him. That is a very important presidential quality.
McCain...maybe not so much - his first major decision and he selects someone who would probably be overwhelmed if put in the position of inheriting the presidency.
 

AR182

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 9, 2000
18,654
87
0
Scottsdale,AZ
what? oh boy. i kinda almost feel sorry for you at this point. you are in a dreamworld.:scared

murph...

can you give me examples of biden getting votes on a national scale ?....this is a guy who has run 4 or 5 times for the presidency & i don't think he has ever gotten double digits in votes in any primary he has run....so why all of a sudden will he bring in votes...because you say so...talk about being in dreamland....pleasant dreams.
 

AR182

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 9, 2000
18,654
87
0
Scottsdale,AZ
It depends on how important of a role each plays. I have a feeling Obama will allow Biden to use his strengths in the administration. ...I would take Biden over McCain for sure when it comes to foreign affairs.

Look at the Bush administration. ...He surrounded himself with Cheney, Rumsfeld, Woflawicz, etc. Bush had NO foreign experience and was easy prey for those chickenhawks.

Lets see who else would be in the Obama administration. So far, he is showing excellent judgement in who he puts around him. That is a very important presidential quality.
McCain...maybe not so much - his first major decision and he selects someone who would probably be overwhelmed if put in the position of inheriting the presidency.


you have a feeling ? that is what you are basing your opinion on ?...dream on...

and why would you take biden over mccain in foreign affairs...because he is a democrat ?
what has biden shown that makes you think he knows more than mccain ?...& btw he may.... there is no way for us to know without giving each a test....
 

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
excellent points by smurphy, when you look at what Biden can do compared to what Pahlin can do for Americans? NO COMPARISON.

Now, the topic at hand was comparing the experience of the two, saying Pahlin had more experience - not where they are on the ticket. Of course people will care more about the top than the bottom, but that's not what I was talking about, and my answer was directly to the point of comparison.

Considering the qualifications of our current President, I think Obama comes more than close enough to be considered. George Bush was a governor for six years, after being an average at best student, and a multi-failed businessman with very suspect credentials - and perhaps some pretty unscrupulous endeavors.

I understand the measure of Obama at the top of the ticket, it makes sense. But when you guys simply compare him to Pahlin, my point is he has more impressive credentials and experience - that was the point. If you want to change the subject and argument, that's fine, I agree with you.
 

smurphy

cartographer
Forum Member
Jul 31, 2004
19,914
140
63
17
L.A.
you have a feeling ? that is what you are basing your opinion on ?...dream on...

and why would you take biden over mccain in foreign affairs...because he is a democrat ?
what has biden shown that makes you think he knows more than mccain ?...& btw he may.... there is no way for us to know without giving each a test....

Biden has been correct more often than McCain - especially about Iraq and the secterian conflicts. Biden has never sung "Bomb bomb Iran". Biden speaks more coherently when discussing international situations. Yes - he's a democrat - so there will more pressure from his party to use diplomacy rather than war to achieve national goals.
 

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
AR, I can say without a doubt, the selection of Biden cemented my vote completely. I had reservations about Obama, that are calmed by the addition of Biden. I think Biden will add a lot to this leadership team - and the fact that many Americans really didn't ever understand his value and supported him, doesn't mean he won't be an asset if and when the time comes.

Again, Biden got me on board - and I assure you, it will pull in others who respect his positions and experience. And it certainly works against the lack of experience angle, which is a constant drumbeat.
 

smurphy

cartographer
Forum Member
Jul 31, 2004
19,914
140
63
17
L.A.
murph...

can you give me examples of biden getting votes on a national scale ?....this is a guy who has run 4 or 5 times for the presidency & i don't think he has ever gotten double digits in votes in any primary he has run....so why all of a sudden will he bring in votes...because you say so...talk about being in dreamland....pleasant dreams.

Well, Biden was always overshadowed by other players. I always liked him though. Let me ask you this - Imagine if Palin was running for president ....how well would SHE have done in the primaries.....2% if lucky?

...And I believe he's done better than you remember. He may have even won some states in the past.
 
Last edited:

kosar

Centrist
Forum Member
Nov 27, 1999
11,112
55
0
ft myers, fl
The experience is at the top of the Republican ticket and at the bottom of the Democratic ticket. Where would you prefer the experience???

You could look at this a couple of different ways, including yours and Al's.

Now consider that if Obama needs some advice on, say, foreign policy. He can go to to his VP for some experienced guidance. Right, wrong or in between, he will get some straight shooting advice.

Now consider that if the confused McCain needs some guidance on economics, which he at least admits he knows nothing about, needs some help? Yeah. He's going to Palin.

How about foreign policy? Where he continually messes up the Shia and Sunnis and thinks Iraq has a border with Afghanistan? He's going to the hockey mom who has been in charge of a dinky state for two years and a mayor of a hamlet before that and a sportscaster before that? I doubt it.

You guys want to talk about 'executive experience?' lol

On what level?

A state with like 700,000 people for 2 yrs. And a city with 8,800 people?

Someone tell me how this translates to a country with 320 million people.

Just silly.

Most importantly, she would be one step away from the presidency. Normally, it's a vague thought, but with McCain and his age and physical baggage, I think that any reasonable person would have to at least consider it.

If that were to happen, it literally would have all the makings of a Hollywood movie, where the producers ask us to suspend disbelief. Pretty hockey mom with minimal experience of any kind, from a remote state(to be kind) , all of a sudden is meeting with Putin.

Kinda like Legally Blonde, in a way.
 
Bet on MyBookie
Top