Germany to bring criminal charges against rumsfeld

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Whats up Gregg I can see where your coming from and think it would be reliant on how detainees were treated by both sides--I am sure there are some abuses but can't see any comparison of humiliation and bodily harm.

Have seen facilities in Gbay on tv and they look pretty plush to me having its own medical center where they even preform routine preventive exams on those confined.

I agree on the accountabilty and believe the lady officer backing the charges was the one dismissed on grounds of being held accountable--maybe sour grapes--no one knows but certainly a distinct possibilty.

--and when you have 20th hi jacker--and rights group-dismissed officer filing charges I have to be a little skeptical.

Also find it quite amazing that in good guy-bad guy scenerio -- they are trying to make a terrorist bent on killing thousands appear to be the persecuted. Strange world we we live in.

 

[phar.lap]

Also find it quite amazing that in good guy-bad guy scenerio -- they are trying to make a terrorist bent on killing thousands appear to be the persecuted. Strange world we we live in.

Its some kind of global Stockholm syndrome.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

"The lawyer for the Guantanamo detainee, Mohammed al-Qahtani, claims Rumsfeld approved special "tactics" when he failed to break under interrogation.

The measures included sleep deprivation and a ban on praying, lawyer Gitanjali Gutierrez said."

Wow how morbid--:shrug:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
by Aurelia End
2 hours, 25 minutes ago



BERLIN (AFP) - An international grouping of lawyers has filed a lawsuit on calling on German prosecutors to investigate outgoing US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld for allegedly sanctioning torture.

The 220-page suit is being brought on behalf of 11 former Iraqi detainees of the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad and one current Saudi detainee of the US prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

The suit was filed to Germany's federal prosecutor Monika Harms at her offices in the western city of Karlsruhe Tuesday, said Hannes Honecker, the secretary-general of the Germany-based Republican Attorneys' Association.

A similar attempt to prosecute Rumsfeld in Germany was rejected two years ago, but the German lawyer representing the detainees, Wolfgang Kaleck, told a press conference in Berlin he was confident the complaint would be followed through on this occasion.

"We failed two years ago because there was an ongoing investigation in the United States, but it is now clear that there is no chance of prosecuting high-ranking officials in the US," Kaleck told a press conference in Berlin called to present the complaint.

"We are not expecting that Rumsfeld will appear in a court, but we are hoping investigators will begin looking into the case," he said.

"If we fail here, we will try in France, or in Spain. We want to show that there will be no safe haven anywhere in the world for him."

The complaint asks Harms to open an investigation and, ultimately, a criminal prosecution that will look into the responsibility of high-ranking US officials for allegedly authorising war crimes in the context of the war on terror, according to the lawyers' grouping.

Rumsfeld resigned last week after Republicans lost control of the US Congress to the opposition Democrats in mid-term elections.

The groups have former US Army Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, who commanded 17 US-run jails in Iraq including Abu Ghraib, as a witness on their behalf.

Karpinski told the press conference: "What I see as my obligation is to provide the truth about what I saw and what I experienced in Iraq.

"When I was getting too close to what was happening they took me out of the equation -- they removed Abu Ghraib from my control.

"Hopefully my testimony will stop this sort of thing ever happening again. I feel we have an obligation to the rest of the world because if the US does something it gives permission to the rest of the world but it doesn't mean it is right."

The lawyer for the Guantanamo detainee, Mohammed al-Qahtani, claims Rumsfeld approved special "tactics" when he failed to break under interrogation.

The measures included sleep deprivation and a ban on praying, lawyer Gitanjali Gutierrez said.

"This is not just allegations, it is supported by government documentation," she said.

Former White House counsel and current Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, former director of the Central Intelligence Agency George Tenet, and other high-ranking US officials are also charged in the complaint.

Other groups involved in the suit include the US-based Center for Constitutional Rights and the Paris-based International Federation for Human Rights.

The Abu Ghraib scandal erupted in 2004 after photographs were leaked to the press showing US guards mistreating and sexually humiliating prisoners. Some pictures showed naked inmates cowering in front of unmuzzled dogs.

Some critics of the US administration and the Pentagon have complained that no senior officers have been prosecuted over Abu Ghraib.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061114/ts_alt_afp/usgermanyprisonersguantanamorumsfeld_061114101723

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Reuters finally came out with their version yesterday--Somehow they forgot to mention Karpinski was dismissed from duty there after the investigation--anyone else think that is relevant to story--or see no mention--and somehow for got to mention Mohammad al-Qahtani was "20th hijacker"
--the deception of the media.

Time article al-Qahtani
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1169322,00.html

Reuters Article

By Louis Charbonneau
Tue Nov 14, 2:21 PM ET



BERLIN (Reuters) - Civil rights groups filed a suit with German prosecutors on Tuesday seeking war crimes charges against outgoing Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld for the alleged abuse of detainees at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo prisons.


"I don't expect he'll go to jail. I think he should go to jail," Peter Weiss of the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) told a public presentation of the suit.

"As far as I'm concerned -- and my colleagues agree -- I would be satisfied if he spent the rest of his life in shame."

Rumsfeld resigned after Democrats wrested power from the Republicans in last week's midterm elections, partly due to dismay over the Iraq war.

The New York-based CCR is one of several groups which filed a roughly 380-page complaint and application for a criminal investigation to be launched with the Federal Prosecutor's Office in Karlsruhe. It confirmed receipt of the suit.

A spokesman for the Pentagon said he had not seen the complaint but he nevertheless dismissed it.

"Based on what I know from press accounts, it certainly sounds frivolous to me," spokesman Bryan Whitman told reporters at a regular Pentagon news briefing. He said anyone involved in mistreatment of detainees had already been punished.

In addition to Rumsfeld, who ran the U.S. defense department for nearly six years, the suit names 13 other U.S. officials including Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez, former CIA director George Tenet and high-ranking military officers.

The groups' lawyers said their case model was former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet, who has been arrested five times since 1998 due to human rights cases against him.

They filed the suit in Karlsruhe because Germany can prosecute foreign violations of international law under its 2002 universal jurisdiction law.

RUMSFELD'S PERSONAL APPROVAL

The complaint is on behalf of 11 Iraqi citizens who were held at Abu Ghraib in Iraq and one Saudi detainee at the U.S. Guantanamo Bay base on Cuba. The CCR says they were victims of beatings, sleep and food deprivation, hooding and sexual abuse.

In addition to the CCR, the International Federation of Human Rights and others are part of the suit.

Walter Kaleck, a Berlin attorney who is helping bring the case against Rumsfeld, said he expected a decision by early 2007 on whether an investigation would be launched, which could lead to an international arrest warrant for Rumsfeld and the others.

Gita Gutierez, a CCR lawyer for the Saudi Guantanamo inmate named in the suit, Mohammed al Qahtani, said her client had been subjected to illegal mental and physical abuse and torture.

Qahtani, a Muslim, has never been charged with a crime. He was kept in isolation for 160 days, deprived of sleep for 48 days, forbidden to pray unless he cooperated with interrogators and was sexually assaulted by a female soldier, Gutierez said.

She said Rumsfeld had taken a personal interest in her client and approved interrogation techniques used against him.

Former U.S. Army Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, who ran the Abu Ghraib prison at the time photographs depicting the abuse of prisoners were widely published and was blamed for it, said she was ready to testify against her former boss Rumsfeld.

Karpinski said the abuse was directed by military intelligence, over which she had no say.

In 2004, the CCR asked German prosecutors to file a criminal case against Rumsfeld over the Abu Ghraib scandal. The complaint almost forced Rumsfeld to cancel his participation in a conference in Munich before prosecutors dropped the case.

 

[danmurphy jr]

The Big 4 will never be convicted but they will harassed to their graves in War Crimes lawsuits and the United States will carry the same shame that Germany did 60 years ago

 

[Chadman]

Wayne, let me ask you this. You say everyone is born equal. Simple exercise here...

Child A is borne to Bill Gates and his wife.

Child B is borne to a white female, living in (insert economically poor mainly white populated rural area here), who's husband left the state because she decided to have a baby instead of aborting it as he told her to do.

Are these two babies born equally? If so, in what way? Other than breathing basic air essentially the same, how do you say yes to this?

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

They are born equal in that they will have 24 hours in a day to determine what they will do in life--from infancy what they acihieve physically or mentaly they have equal opportunity to get at least high school education--granted the one with money will have opportunity for college regardless of how they apply that 24 hours but the lesser can overcome.

Granted the parents with a spendthrift trust could keep child in income the rest of their life but it has nothing to do with what the child itself will produce--on flip side how many athletes have we seen makes tons of money only to die broke.

My arguement eveyrone in U.S. has same opportunty to have free high school education--their limits after that are defined by their initiative are lack there of.

I understand where you are coming from -- especially if you compared child in america to child in underdeveloped country--and agree that while I think they are born equal would definately side with you they are not born with equal opportunity.

 

[gardenweasel]

Please re-read the article. The German government is contemplating criminal charges which is far different than a lawsuit which you correctly state that anyone can file. Torture of prisoners or even "detainees" is in direct violation of the Geneva Convention and regardless of anyones opinion on it's appropriateness, is considered illegal by any civilized person. If these allegations are found to be true, someone deserves to be held accountable.

Was it appropriate for the Viet Cong to torture our soldiers in their effort to obtain information in that "police action"? As that conflict was never a declared war, I suppose that our men held captive by those animals were simply "detainees" as well. Not really much difference although I am certain that the comparison is sure to cause some very nasty responses from those that will attempt pin some unpatriotic labels on me for daring to do so.

To clarify, I am in no way attempting to justify the horrific treatment of our captive soldiers in the Viet Nam conflict but rather trying to draw a comparison that bears considering. Al-Quaida invaded our country and our governtment choose to treat those that we apprehended in a particular manner as did the despicable Viet Cong when their own country was invaded by an army that had no business being there.

..

the insanity and utter hatred of those inside this country for the bush administration borders on pathological...


again....for those that didn`t get it....."germany" is not charging rumsfeld, a group of 11 iraqis are filing suit against him in a german court because of the "internal jurisdiction" of the german court, which says that the german court can prosecute people for actions outside of its own country. "....

end of that discussion..even though "germany" and "war crimes" used in the same sentence seems quaint.....



""The German government is contemplating criminal charges which is far different than a lawsuit which you correctly state that anyone can file.""

and o.j.`s still looking for nicole`s killers...
don`t hold your breath until the german gov`t tries to prosecute rumsfeld,"judge"...angela merkel is laughing at you as we speak...

why not prosecute bill clinton for all the collateral damage(innocent civilian deaths) clinton caused when he bombed bosnia?....was that a "legal"(whatever the f-ck that means) action?...when exactly did the serbs attack us?...

"qahtani was subjected to forced nudity, sexual humiliation, religious humiliation, prolonged stress positions, sleep deprivation and other controversial interrogation techniques."

i imagine sexual humiliation means pointing and laughing.....(or maybe being questioned by a lowly woman?)....lol


sounds more like,"what happens in vegas,stays in vegas".....controversial interrogation techniques?....sounds like what muslim wives must endure routinely....wonder what the plaintiffs have to say about the facts of people's lives under islam?..

how `bout saddam`s shredders?....smurphy calling dtb "sponge"?....:wtf:

crickets chirping...."cheep cheep"...."cheep cheep"(those cheeps are very realistic sounding,i`d say)....


btw,i`m heading to germany...i want universal jurisdiction,too...i am filing a war crimes suit on behalf of all preschoolers who were unjustly tortured by being sent to bed without dessert..... next week, there may be additional charges based on illegal forced naptimes and emotional distress caused by candy deprivation.....

lord...

and you have incredible gall,bud,to compare an aberration in our treatment of prisoners in a particular incident which,btw,was misreported, with the viet cong`s treatment of american soldiers....

real gall...

The key quote from General Antonio Taguba's Senate testimony(and from the the Tagabu Report): "We did not find any evidence of a policy or a direct order given to these soldiers to conduct what they did. I believe that they did it on their own volition and I believe that they collaborated with several MI (military intelligence) interrogators at the lower level."

these people were prosecuted by law last time i checked...

please post the link to the article in which the viet cong prosecuted their own for prisoner abuses....

thanks...i`ll be waiting...

..

 

[Chadman]

They are born equal in that they will have 24 hours in a day to determine what they will do in life--from infancy what they acihieve physically or mentaly they have equal opportunity to get at least high school education--granted the one with money will have opportunity for college regardless of how they apply that 24 hours but the lesser can overcome.

Granted the parents with a spendthrift trust could keep child in income the rest of their life but it has nothing to do with what the child itself will produce--on flip side how many athletes have we seen makes tons of money only to die broke.

My arguement eveyrone in U.S. has same opportunty to have free high school education--their limits after that are defined by their initiative are lack there of.

I understand where you are coming from -- especially if you compared child in america to child in underdeveloped country--and agree that while I think they are born equal would definately side with you they are not born with equal opportunity.

Fair enough points, but I would submit that kids do not have equal access to the same educational opportunities in high school, or middle school, or elementary school, so the kids in underprivileged areas have to try harder to succeed, all things considered. I don't think it's any mystery that kids in rural areas or economically depressed areas do not have the same materials to work with - due to a lesser tax base, not as much funding, and in inner city schools, probably not as much one on one time due to overcrowded classrooms, among other things.

I don't think kids have the same chance, period. The ones who excel despite the odds are truly amazing to me, and I get really tired of the Dr. Feeze constant harping - and others - and even you from time to time - that everyone has the same chances in life. It sounds good, but doesn't stand up to scrutiny, I don't think.

 

[MrChristo]

Fair enough points, but I would submit that kids do not have equal access to the same educational opportunities in high school, or middle school, or elementary school, so the kids in underprivileged areas have to try harder to succeed, all things considered. I don't think it's any mystery that kids in rural areas or economically depressed areas do not have the same materials to work with - due to a lesser tax base, not as much funding, and in inner city schools, probably not as much one on one time due to overcrowded classrooms, among other things.

I don't think kids have the same chance, period. The ones who excel despite the odds are truly amazing to me, and I get really tired of the Dr. Feeze constant harping - and others - and even you from time to time - that everyone has the same chances in life. It sounds good, but doesn't stand up to scrutiny, I don't think.

Exactly.

Unfortunately, people don't live in vacuums. Environmental factors affect kids as much as "motivation" and a "willingness to succeed".
Kids born into low income familes are...More likely to have more siblings, which in turn they have to support...therefore much more likely to quit controlled eduaction and get a paying job.
Or, they are more likely to hang out with their dumb-arse friend and hit all kinds of drugs because being backward in school isn't much fun...and neither is being at home with no $ and no foreseeable future. (Hey, I'll stereo-type with the best of them )


Also find it quite amazing that in good guy-bad guy scenerio -- they are trying to make a terrorist bent on killing thousands appear to be the persecuted. Strange world we we live in.

Or, in fact, he might be totally innocent...but who knows, and who cares. The right to a trial? Hell no. Jusst locked away for ever. Every bit as bad as the "animals" we are fighting against. EVERY BIT.

the insanity and utter hatred of those inside this country for the bush administration borders on pathological...

gw, I'm just about sick to the stomach of your devotion the the man. He's an imbicile. Even if you agree with what he is doing, can you not see he has the IQ of a school kiddie??
Can you not see that he has effectively made himself (and every future president) a dictator? Do you not care that basic freedoms are being swept away??
Government is no longer government.
People are no longer presumed innocent...It's ****ing basic stuff we in the west have (literally) fought for for years...only to have one of our own strip it all away!!!
I want you to tell me straight that you agree with it...without resorting to the "but one of the detainees might set off a nuclear bomb in New York" argument...
...tell me straight up that you agree with one man effectively reversing 200 years of fighting and struggling for basic democratic principals. :shrug:

 

[Chadman]

Do you not care that basic freedoms are being swept away??
Government is no longer government.
People are no longer presumed innocent...It's ****ing basic stuff we in the west have (literally) fought for for years...only to have one of our own strip it all away!!!

This is the exact correct point. One one hand, the President now says that we went to Iraq to spread freedom and democracy (which of course is a lie), and then he takes unheard of steps to strip away the very constitutional rights and freedoms he proclaims to be spreading.

The administration has rushed through as much dismantling of accepted rights and behaviors as I have ever seen, and what's really amazing is that he helped swing the power of the Supreme Court, it rules against him, so he just ignores the Court.

There is no end to what these people think they are above. And thankfully, there are fewer and fewer people in this country (let alone other countries) that support his trampling of what he supposedly is "fighting" for.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Unfortunately, people don't live in vacuums. Environmental factors affect kids as much as "motivation" and a "willingness to succeed".
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You might add gentics---intersting study on twins split up at birth.

Answer this one if you will. Asians come here at severe disadvantage without many speaking the language, unucusstomed to environment ect---yet Asians rate the highest (includng white)in almost every statistical demographical catagory and another element ranks last.

So why is that--why does one excell and one fail?

Give us a little PC perspective on that

 

[Chadman]

I don't know, Wayne. Are you comparing Asians who come here to others who are born here? Or Asians in general to others in general? Are you talking specifically about immigrants? Legals? Illegals? I don't know what the base is, so I don't think I should comment without knowing the point.

It is my understanding that Asian society tends to work longer hours from school age all the way to their working careers. I have nothing to footnote other than what I seem to remember from reading and tv shows. So, maybe from that novice, naive perspective, they are born into an environment that espouses hard work and long hours from the cradle to the grave, to coin a phrase, and that probably translates into better performance in some way?

So, an Asian child, from birth, might have a better chance at success than others simply because of their original and continuing environment? Again, I am not saying I know a thing, just typing out loud.

 

[MrChristo]

...and maybe (obviously!) you can pluck any single example...doesn't for one second make it the rule. (the twins).

Of course genetics is a factor (in IQ as much as anything...which I dare say would likely have some correlation to motivation and success?? ***
...but in broad terms it's only a "factor" like everything else.

*** interesting little note (that has nothing to do with anything!) that more intelligent children (young, around the 4-5 yo range) are more likely to lie, cheat and steal!
They know it benefits them and they are smart enough to not get caught in the act.
True.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Almost all tables were from Census which include both home grown and immigratnts Chad.
Was checking more tables today and with few exceptions Asians in U.S. dominate all ethnic catagories by huge margins in a lot of cases.
Income>asians nearly double lowest class
Aids 3.8 per 100,000 vs 58 for lowest class
Illigitamacy 14.9 to 68.2
same in comparison in crime-welfare ect.

I think you are on correct path Chad.
Attitude derived from culture.

While I not familiar with many Asian countries--I know quite a bit about China--as you referred to children go to school much longer each year--very few drop outs--their is no welfare--families take care of thier own--no credit card or debt(except for wealthy)--if you can't afford it you do without--you are penalized if having more than one child (have to pay tax on more than one) not rewarded on how many you can spit out.
Asians are without exception the biggest savers in the world. Little crime in China prob because of consequences if your caught and listening to music 24/7 glorifying crime certainly is not in their nature.

--an interesting observation--shortly after I was married I took my wife to see parents--on way from Ky to Mo we drive through town Cario Illinois on Hyway 3. Speed limit is 25mph for bout 1/2 mile down main street of town. She was looking perplexed as she noticed all the bars on windows and doors as we drove down street and finally made comment only prisons had bars in China.
She made a few other observations also.