Is history repeating?

Dead Money

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Upstairs watching sports on the big TV.
Slow death of a country..factual, not judgmental.

THIS is a long but very thought provoking read...draw your own conclusions.




Those living during the decline of Rome were likely unaware that anything was happening. The decline took over a couple of hundred years. Anyone living during the decline only saw a small part of what was happening and likely never noticed it as anything other than ordinary.

Countries don?t have genetically determined life spans. Nor do they die quickly, unless the cataclysm of some great war does them in. Even in such extreme cases, there are usually warning signs, which are more obvious in hindsight than at the time.

Few citizens of a dying nation recognize the signs. Most are too busy trying to live their lives, sometimes not an easy task. If death occupies their mind, it is with respect to themselves, a relative or a friend. Most cannot conceive of the death of a nation.

A Country Dies Slowly First
For those interested, signs or symptoms precede death for a country often as they do for a person. There is a pattern that involves the following:

1. The Economy
Economically, people become poorer. It becomes harder to feed a family. Economic growth stalls and then reverses. Work opportunities decline. Disincentives to work rise as government tries to ease the burden on the unemployed and lower skilled.
These efforts require more revenues which means higher taxes or debt financing. Disincentives to create jobs are magnified by attempts to address the problem. Higher taxes and other burdens are imposed on the productive making work less attractive.

The response should not be surprising. Capital flees first. It goes to areas where adequate returns are still available. Jobs are created but not in the host country. Finally a ?brain drain? begins. Talented people leave the country for places that offer greater opportunity.
In the case of the US, to escape US taxes these people must renounce their citizenship. Citizenship renouncements are currently at the highest levels in the history.

The flight of capital, both real and human, further lowers standards of living. Signs of stagnation become more apparent. They may begin as seemingly benign as roads which have too many potholes. ?For rent? signs are seen more frequently. Classified job ads decrease. ?Going out of Business? sales are no longer marketing gimmicks.

Initially, people dig into their savings or begin to borrow in order to retain their standard of living. Most believe it is a temporary situation. Eventually bankruptcies increase. Strip or full malls close. Large areas like Detroit become close to uninhabitable.

These conditions characterize the beginnings of the decline. As the decline continues, things get much worse.

2. The State
The State is threatened by a decline. Generally it moves into full pretend mode. Three behavioral traits characterize its behavior. The State must convince citizens:

things are not as bad as they seem.
the State is not responsible for the situation.
the State must do more (grow bigger) in order to solve the problems.
Statistics issued by the State are fudged to convey a false image of well-being. Government spending soars in an effort to juice reported economic activity.

Much of the spending is unproductive in terms of providing things that would have otherwise been bought. It is also counterproductive to a proper functioning economy as price discovery is disrupted and consumer and investment decisions are based on false signals.

Incentives are provided to encourage people to live beyond their means. Debt appears nearly free and readily available. Bubbles occur and then burst. New bubbles are necessary to replace old bubbles.
People and businesses are encouraged to make imprudent decisions, all in the attempt to make the economy appear better.

The State has one objective and that is to remain in power. Laws and regulations multiply at ever faster rates. Tyrannical rules and legislation are passed under the pretense of protecting the people against some threat.
In reality, these laws are passed to protect the leaders against the public when they finally understand what has been done to them.

?Bread and circuses? increase to divert peoples attention from the developing problems. Dependency increases reflecting an attempt to placate the masses. A ?wag the dog? war or crisis is often used as a means to rally the public against some phony enemy.

3. Society
Society becomes coarsens as this process progresses. People increasingly are unable to provide properly for their families. Some desperately turn to unethical behavior, even criminal acts. Common decency declines.

The regulations imposed from above reduce the sphere of voluntary interactions between people. The government decides more and more what you must do, when and how you must do it. What you can say comes under attack. Finally how you must live is increasingly determined.

Free markets are slowly replaced by a command and control ordering of society. Coercion displaces freedom as the coordinating force for society. People increasingly do what they must rather than what they want.

Interest groups, i.e. politically preferred constituents, created in good times don?t demand less when there is less available. The inability to meet their demands creates political strife and eventually civil problems. Honoring their demands divides society even more. Not honoring demands may produce rioting and civil unrest.

Society becomes increasingly divided in terms of the ?makers? and the ?takers.? As the takers grow in numbers, the makers shrink in numbers. Soon the parasites overwhelm the productive. Society collapses at that point.
 

ImFeklhr

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Oct 3, 2005
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I hear what you are saying here, but there HAS to be a flip side, right? I let my mind wander, and my fingers Google and here are a few silver linings I came up with:

Murder rate at 50 year lows.
Life expectancy at all-time highs
300 million+ people in this country not starving to death.
Some personal liberties for minorities a lot higher (easier to be black, gay, other)
Fatal work injuries 50% lower than 20 years ago.
Awareness of our impact on the environment and this country?s' natural beauty at all-time high.

Maybe the United States as we know it won't exist in 100 or 200 years. Maybe the idealized notion of this country?s most aggressive boom years (1940?s-1960s?) will never again be realized, but I question the need to put that period on a pedestal anyway. People died younger, had less food, died more at work, died more to murder, died more to war (exponentially more*), the environment of this country was being pillaged, almost every minority was more harshly oppressed. And if you weren't a white male, you probably weren't enjoying those decades anyway. Man, today isn?t all bad!

The biggest things I am most concerned/depressed about are government tyranny (e.g. NSA spying), and the slow takeover of the country by corporate business interests. Yeah, those things are pretty bad right about now.

Still, I would have to imagine a dying country would not have so many upsides.
 

REFLOG

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Nov 17, 2002
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The Dogpound
I'm sure the folks back in Rome thought everything was great too!

Not really apples to applle between post 1 and post 3.

Murder rate at 50 year lows. ( More People carrying..legally)
Life expectancy at all-time highs (Capitalism at its best)
300 million+ people in this country not starving to death. (Who's paying?)
Some personal liberties for minorities a lot higher (easier to be black, gay, other) (Whaa)
Fatal work injuries 50% lower than 20 years ago. (Fewer people working)
Awareness of our impact on the environment and this country?s' natural beauty at all-time high. (OK Al Gore, the climate always change:nono:, see George Carlins comments on this one)
 

ImFeklhr

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Oct 3, 2005
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San Francisco
I'm sure the folks back in Rome thought everything was great too!

Not really apples to applle between post 1 and post 3.

Murder rate at 50 year lows. ( More People carrying..legally) Correlation does not imply causation. And even if it did, is there actually a verifiable increase in more people carrying?
Life expectancy at all-time highs (Capitalism at its best) Agree, mostly.
300 million+ people in this country not starving to death. (Who's paying?) Considering the amount of welfare the agricultural industry gets, we are all paying, but however it is being done, a country that doubled or tripled in population yet hunger went down must be doing something right
Some personal liberties for minorities a lot higher (easier to be black, gay, other) (Whaa) ?
Fatal work injuries 50% lower than 20 years ago. (Fewer people working)I meant the fatality RATE is 50% lower. And are you actually suggesting there are fewer workers in the US than 50 years ago? Considering the population has more than doubled, I doubt that .
Awareness of our impact on the environment and this country?s' natural beauty at all-time high. (OK Al Gore, the climate always change:nono:, see George Carlins comments on this one) I'm talking improved Air quality, improved water quality etc. National/Local Parks. Rivers don't catch on fire anymore in the US

See above. I guess my overall point is that with so many positives existing in the world toady, if this what a country looks like as it fails, then bring on the failure. A failed US where people live to be 100, live and work in safety and have food in their bellies would by my kind of failure. Kidding of course there *are* many troubling things going on in the world today, just don't let it eat you up inside. Good things are happening too! And I don't mean this in a political way, just hate seeing people live their life in the realm of doom and gloom. :0008
 

gardenweasel

el guapo
Forum Member
Jan 10, 2002
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"the bunker"
Slow death of a country..factual, not judgmental.

THIS is a long but very thought provoking read...draw your own conclusions.




Those living during the decline of Rome were likely unaware that anything was happening. The decline took over a couple of hundred years. Anyone living during the decline only saw a small part of what was happening and likely never noticed it as anything other than ordinary.

Countries don?t have genetically determined life spans. Nor do they die quickly, unless the cataclysm of some great war does them in. Even in such extreme cases, there are usually warning signs, which are more obvious in hindsight than at the time.

Few citizens of a dying nation recognize the signs. Most are too busy trying to live their lives, sometimes not an easy task. If death occupies their mind, it is with respect to themselves, a relative or a friend. Most cannot conceive of the death of a nation.

A Country Dies Slowly First
For those interested, signs or symptoms precede death for a country often as they do for a person. There is a pattern that involves the following:

1. The Economy
Economically, people become poorer. It becomes harder to feed a family. Economic growth stalls and then reverses. Work opportunities decline. Disincentives to work rise as government tries to ease the burden on the unemployed and lower skilled.
These efforts require more revenues which means higher taxes or debt financing. Disincentives to create jobs are magnified by attempts to address the problem. Higher taxes and other burdens are imposed on the productive making work less attractive.

The response should not be surprising. Capital flees first. It goes to areas where adequate returns are still available. Jobs are created but not in the host country. Finally a ?brain drain? begins. Talented people leave the country for places that offer greater opportunity.
In the case of the US, to escape US taxes these people must renounce their citizenship. Citizenship renouncements are currently at the highest levels in the history.

The flight of capital, both real and human, further lowers standards of living. Signs of stagnation become more apparent. They may begin as seemingly benign as roads which have too many potholes. ?For rent? signs are seen more frequently. Classified job ads decrease. ?Going out of Business? sales are no longer marketing gimmicks.

Initially, people dig into their savings or begin to borrow in order to retain their standard of living. Most believe it is a temporary situation. Eventually bankruptcies increase. Strip or full malls close. Large areas like Detroit become close to uninhabitable.

These conditions characterize the beginnings of the decline. As the decline continues, things get much worse.

2. The State
The State is threatened by a decline. Generally it moves into full pretend mode. Three behavioral traits characterize its behavior. The State must convince citizens:

things are not as bad as they seem.
the State is not responsible for the situation.
the State must do more (grow bigger) in order to solve the problems.
Statistics issued by the State are fudged to convey a false image of well-being. Government spending soars in an effort to juice reported economic activity.

Much of the spending is unproductive in terms of providing things that would have otherwise been bought. It is also counterproductive to a proper functioning economy as price discovery is disrupted and consumer and investment decisions are based on false signals.

Incentives are provided to encourage people to live beyond their means. Debt appears nearly free and readily available. Bubbles occur and then burst. New bubbles are necessary to replace old bubbles.
People and businesses are encouraged to make imprudent decisions, all in the attempt to make the economy appear better.

The State has one objective and that is to remain in power. Laws and regulations multiply at ever faster rates. Tyrannical rules and legislation are passed under the pretense of protecting the people against some threat.
In reality, these laws are passed to protect the leaders against the public when they finally understand what has been done to them.

?Bread and circuses? increase to divert peoples attention from the developing problems. Dependency increases reflecting an attempt to placate the masses. A ?wag the dog? war or crisis is often used as a means to rally the public against some phony enemy.

3. Society
Society becomes coarsens as this process progresses. People increasingly are unable to provide properly for their families. Some desperately turn to unethical behavior, even criminal acts. Common decency declines.

The regulations imposed from above reduce the sphere of voluntary interactions between people. The government decides more and more what you must do, when and how you must do it. What you can say comes under attack. Finally how you must live is increasingly determined.

Free markets are slowly replaced by a command and control ordering of society. Coercion displaces freedom as the coordinating force for society. People increasingly do what they must rather than what they want.

Interest groups, i.e. politically preferred constituents, created in good times don?t demand less when there is less available. The inability to meet their demands creates political strife and eventually civil problems. Honoring their demands divides society even more. Not honoring demands may produce rioting and civil unrest.

Society becomes increasingly divided in terms of the ?makers? and the ?takers.? As the takers grow in numbers, the makers shrink in numbers. Soon the parasites overwhelm the productive. Society collapses at that point.

jack..please give this dude the password to political.....
 

comfortable1

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Nov 13, 2009
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I'm sure the folks back in Rome thought everything was great too!

Not really apples to applle between post 1 and post 3.

Murder rate at 50 year lows. ( More People carrying..legally)
Life expectancy at all-time highs (Capitalism at its best)
300 million+ people in this country not starving to death. (Who's paying?)
Some personal liberties for minorities a lot higher (easier to be black, gay, other) (Whaa)
Fatal work injuries 50% lower than 20 years ago. (Fewer people working)
Awareness of our impact on the environment and this country?s' natural beauty at all-time high. (OK Al Gore, the climate always change:nono:, see George Carlins comments on this one)

Just like your name, you got it backwards... SPOO
 

buddy

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Nov 21, 2000
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Pittsburgh, Pa.
Not really apples to applle between post 1 and post 3.

If you'd have watched the video, you'd understand.

BIG BROTHER has an agenda and it's being implemented as I type.

Be advised, there is a method to their madness.

It is a systematic transformation and dismantling of "what was" to "what will be."

Traditional American values will be morphed into new global standards.

It's both obvious and insidious.

Aldous Huxley's, "Brave New World" wasn't far from the mark from what is now and has been on the New World Order drawing board.

New education standards will instruct young minds to believe in the value of society over the individual (Enjoy your "pursuit of happiness" while you can).

Things like individual rights and property rights will be vaporized.

It may take a while, but all the NWO head coaches have a playbook and they're all running the same formations.

The demise of this nation is not an accident.

It's called "Sustainable Development" or "Agenda 21." The terms are interchangeable.

You wrote: "Few citizens of a dying nation recognize the signs." And those same few are able to see the forest through the trees.

"Redeem the time, the days are evil..." Proverbs ~
 

REFLOG

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Nov 17, 2002
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The Dogpound
If you'd have watched the video, you'd understand.

BIG BROTHER has an agenda and it's being implemented as I type.

Be advised, there is a method to their madness.

It is a systematic transformation and dismantling of "what was" to "what will be."

Traditional American values will be morphed into new global standards.

It's both obvious and insidious.

Aldous Huxley's, "Brave New World" wasn't far from the mark from what is now and has been on the New World Order drawing board.

New education standards will instruct young minds to believe in the value of society over the individual (Enjoy your "pursuit of happiness" while you can).

Things like individual rights and property rights will be vaporized.

It may take a while, but all the NWO head coaches have a playbook and they're all running the same formations.

The demise of this nation is not an accident.

It's called "Sustainable Development" or "Agenda 21." The terms are interchangeable.

You wrote: "Few citizens of a dying nation recognize the signs." And those same few are able to see the forest through the trees.

"Redeem the time, the days are evil..." Proverbs ~

yep
 

Dead Money

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Sep 15, 2005
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Upstairs watching sports on the big TV.
Thanks for input

Thanks for input

Judging by the many views,
this thread remains insightful, with no serious bad natured overtones.


Lets take the time to investigate a portion of what is really happening behind the world's scene and what the horizon may hold for us.

I look at this partially edited essay as "What happens when the Chicken comes home to roost" and "Chess vs Checkers"






For quite some time, we have been predicting that the Russians and Chinese will, at some point, bring an end to the petrodollar system that has virtually guaranteed the US the position of having its currency be the world's default currency.

This position has allowed the US, in recent decades, to go on a borrowing and currency-printing spree, the likes of which the world has never seen.

First, a Little History
It's important that we back up a bit here to have a look at how this came about in the first instance.

In 1971, the US government, under Richard Nixon, took the US off the gold standard. This meant that, from that point on, the dollar was backed by nothing.

However, as long as the dollar was accepted as legitimate currency (even though it was now mere paper), not only could the game continue as before, but the US would then be free to print as much "currency" as it wished. It would also be free to borrow as much as it wished, thereby building as large an economic house of cards as it wished.





Enter the Petrodollar
Back in 1971, it was necessary to assure that the dollar would retain its position in world trade as the world's premiere currency, in spite of the fact that it was no longer backed by anything.

The US reached an agreement with Saudi Arabia that, in trade for arms and protection, the Saudis would denominate all future oil sales, worldwide, in dollars. The other OPEC countries fell into line, and the "petrodollar" was assured.


Returning to the present, we have stated for some time that the methods by which the US, the Russians, and the Chinese have been playing the game have been very different.

The Chinese, for over 4000 years, have played the game of w?iq?, and the w?iq? philosophy is a primary part of Chinese philosophy. The idea is to distract your opponent whilst you subtly surround him. Once he is enclosed, with no support from outside, it's game over.

By contrast, the Russians are perennial chess players. Chess, played correctly, involves the concept of imagining each move that your opponent may possibly make. For each possible move, you imagine each possible move you could make and how your opponent might retaliate.

You then select your best move. A good chess player is one who has learned to imagine several moves in advance. Therefore, once your opponent makes his move, you are never taken off-guard. You are prepared for anything he does.

Mister Putin is a consummate chess player, and since he has returned to office, each time the US has made a move, he has been ready.

Each of his moves has not only countered the US, but trumped them. At every step that the US gets tough on Russia, Russia immediately says, in effect, "Okay, remember, you brought this on yourselves." Russia then makes a move that puts the US in a far worse position than it was before.

The amazing fact here is that the US method recognises neither w?iq? nor chess. They appear to be playing checkers. The US has, since World War II, used the approach of "The Yanks are Comin'."

The US has been the biggest boy in the schoolyard and has, through a combination of bluster and bullying, been able to intimidate the world and, as a result, get virtually everything it wanted for a very long time.




But now, the US is broke, and its stature as the biggest boy has begun to wane. The other kids in the schoolyard are playing smart, whilst the US is still playing tough?and it's no longer working.


Claiming that Russia was overstepping its power in the Ukraine (when, in fact, it was the US that was guilty of this move), the US applied economic sanctions to Russia.

The US media treated this as a major blow to Russia, from which the Russkies had better back off if they knew what was good for them.

But, in fact, this served as an open invitation for Russia to retaliate. Since the very first thrust by the US, each parry and thrust by the Russians has been both effective and well planned. (It should be borne in mind that the latest announcement that Russia would not accept US dollars in payment for gas could only be enforced if Russia could get its international gas customers to agree.

At the time of announcement, nine out of ten customers had, in fact agreed. These decisions were, unquestionably, not reached overnight. This chess move was planned well in advance.)

When Russia announced that Gazprom, the largest gas supplier in the world, would no longer be accepting US dollars from its clients, the West was shaken by the news.

End of the Petrodollar
So, does this spell the end for the petrodollar? Not just yet.

But it does add a nail to the petrodollar coffin, and a rather large nail, at that. It most certainly announces to the world that, if the US continues its schoolyard bully approach, both the Russians and the Chinese are more than ready. They have greater power than the US gave them credit for and, as we are witnessing, are more adept at the game itself.

Time after time, the US announces a flimsy new policy that is half-baked at best, and the US media announce, in effect, "This'll show 'em!" And yet, at every turn, the Sino-Russian tag-team deals blow after blow to US hegemony in the world.

The US is at war with China and Russia. It's an undeclared war, and it's monetary warfare, not military warfare. Yes, there are the military distractions, such as in the Ukraine and the Middle East, but the primary war is being fought monetarily.

If we observe the Asian responses to the US attacks in this war, and assess them objectively, we see that the Asians do not seek to kill off the US. In each battle, they, like skilled bullfighters, deflect the charging bull, then thrust the sword forward, wounding him again and again with every charge.

As this approach is becoming a pattern, it would indicate that the Russians and Chinese, much like a bullfighter, are wearing out the bull and provoking him to lose enough blood that, soon, he will no longer be able to continue the fight.

There will be no H-bomb moment here. No point at which the US, to the entire world's surprise, suddenly self-destructs. Just as Rome wound down 2000 years ago, we shall observe a similar winding down of the US. (Although there will be many sudden crashes along the way, the entire process will stretch out for years.)

And I believe the US will be kept alive by the victors. It will remain in business as a country and will serve the East, particularly as a consumer of Eastern-produced goods.

But it will cease to be the world's empire. Much as the British Empire wound down as a result of the world wars, the US will be greatly diminished in power.

More and more, US residents are coming to realise that the "recovery" that is forever being heralded as "just around the corner" will not arrive.

No "green shoots," no "shovel-ready jobs" will materialise. The US are attempting to win a chess game by playing checkers, and they will not succeed. The US's place in the world will be a casualty of that error, as will be the US economy.
 
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