New Age Limits for the Armed Services

smurphy

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Palehose said:
Were is your outrage that between Chicago and Detroit alone there has been more deaths by violent crime since Iraqi Freedom began and its not even close and that is just from 2 US cities and the death's are not honorable or courageous ?[/COLOR]

What the hell is it with you people and your innacurate and misleading demographic studies to try and prove something about both Iraq and urban American cities. I will re-post the statistics from another thread:

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Most recent charts I could find were for 2002. Overall, murder rates in big cities have dropped since then:

City ......Murders per 100,000
(1) Washington, DC 45.8
(2) Detroit 42.0
(3) Baltimore 38.3
(4) Memphis 24.7
(5) Chicago 22.2
(6) Philadelphia 19.0
(7) Columbus 18.1
(8) Milwaukee 18.0
(9) Los Angeles 17.5
(10) Dallas 15.8

In Iraq in 2004, there were 639 American deaths due to HOSTILE action. This does not include accidents. I don't know the exact average number of troops we kept there during that time, but 150,000 is probably a good guess. That would make the "Murder rate" if you will about 426 per 100,000.
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So, in your stupid example, you are saying that Chicago + Detroit > Iraq. ....Let's do the simple math..., carry the 1 and...

You are claiming that 64.2 > 426.

Do you people learn this on Rush Limbaugh or is it from someone on Fox News?

I think everyone needs refresher courses in geography, math, and anythingthing else that might teach us something. This is part of our whole problem - WE ARE IDIOTS! How the hell do we expect to win anything when we don't know anything????

Innacurate geography will doom us all :mj07:
 

kosar

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smurphy said:
What the hell is it with you people and your innacurate and misleading demographic studies to try and prove something about both Iraq and urban American cities. I will re-post the statistics from another thread:

--------------------------
Most recent charts I could find were for 2002. Overall, murder rates in big cities have dropped since then:

City ......Murders per 100,000
(1) Washington, DC 45.8
(2) Detroit 42.0
(3) Baltimore 38.3
(4) Memphis 24.7
(5) Chicago 22.2
(6) Philadelphia 19.0
(7) Columbus 18.1
(8) Milwaukee 18.0
(9) Los Angeles 17.5
(10) Dallas 15.8

In Iraq in 2004, there were 639 American deaths due to HOSTILE action. This does not include accidents. I don't know the exact average number of troops we kept there during that time, but 150,000 is probably a good guess. That would make the "Murder rate" if you will about 426 per 100,000.
_________________

So, in your stupid example, you are saying that Chicago + Detroit > Iraq. ....Let's do the simple math..., carry the 1 and...

You are claiming that 64.2 > 426.

Do you people learn this on Rush Limbaugh or is it from someone on Fox News?

I think everyone needs refresher courses in geography, math, and anythingthing else that might teach us something. This is part of our whole problem - WE ARE IDIOTS! How the hell do we expect to win anything when we don't know anything????

Innacurate geography will doom us all :mj07:

I think the whole point is moot to begin with, but these clowns insist on using raw numbers and are comparing cities with millions of people to a group 140,000 to 160,000. :rolleyes:
 

Palehose

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So let me get this right your much more concerned about people that have signed up to defend our countries ideals home or abroad and go to war when needed knowing full well what they are signing on to , then you are about our children and non combatants getting brutally murdered in your own country ???? huh go figure ! Somehow I am not shocked . Cancer victims or Car accident Victims I agree would be a terrible analogy .
 

NySportsfan

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kosar said:
I think the whole point is moot to begin with, but these clowns insist on using raw numbers and are comparing cities with millions of people to a group 140,000 to 160,000. :rolleyes:


you should note also Matt, off topic, that New York City is NOT on that list nor close to it, and it's population trumps those places......but, I feel for you on these boards spending your work day arguing with the Charlesmansons and Palehoses of the world, lot of personal attacks from those folks, but at least we all get some daily entertainment
 

kosar

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Palehose said:
So let me get this right your much more concerned about people that have signed up to defend our countries ideals home or abroad and go to war when needed knowing full well what they are signing on to , then you are about our children and non combatants getting brutally murdered in your own country ???? huh go figure ! Somehow I am not shocked . Cancer victims or Car accident Victims I agree would be a terrible analogy .

We voluntarily put them in harms way for absolutely no reason. That's what upsets me. We aren't 'defending' ideals. Last time I checked our 'ideals' were not being assailed by Iraq.
 

kosar

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NySportsfan said:
you should note also Matt, off topic, that New York City is NOT on that list nor close to it, and it's population trumps those places......but, I feel for you on these boards spending your work day arguing with the Charlesmansons and Palehoses of the world, lot of personal attacks from those folks, but at least we all get some daily entertainment

Yeah, sure Mike. I don't care about murder rates, I have no use for New York. No offense to anybody.

No reason to feel sorry for me, it passes the time.
 

NySportsfan

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kosar said:
Yeah, sure Mike. I don't care about murder rates, I have no use for New York. No offense to anybody.

No reason to feel sorry for me, it passes the time.


Yea, you like your ohio, indiana and west coast of florida, that's fine, to each's own, Everyone is certainly biased (rightfully so) to where they grew up and spent the most time in
 

Palehose

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Chicago Tribune
November 24, 2002
Series: THE CHICAGO CRIME. First in a series.
Chicago's tolerance for murder
Edition: Chicagoland Final
Section: Editorial
Page: 10

Article Text:
On a pleasant Tuesday evening in late July, enraged bystanders beat to death Jack Moore and Anthony Stuckey after their van veered off Lake Park Avenue and injured three young women. The killers used strong hands and hard masonry grabbed from a crumbling porch stoop to exact swift and fierce retribution on Moore and Stuckey.
What made the homicides unusual--aside from the weapons; guns are the usual choice--was that somebody other than paramedics, cops and medical examiners took much notice. These two slayings embarrassed Chicago in the eyes of the nation--something that 600 or so other killings here this year won't accomplish.
In a city that has improved by almost every measure--from infant mortality to public education, from calmer race relations to the broad diversity of its economy--one civic failure stubbornly defies conquest. Not since 1967 has a year concluded with fewer than 600 people being murdered here. Last year's total was 665, up from 631 in 2000. As of Friday, this year's toll stood at 571, with 10 percent of the year yet to go.
Chicago's murder total topped those of all U.S. cities last year. More significantly, Chicago's murder rate--total homicides divided by the population of 2.9 million--was the highest of the nine U.S. cities with populations above 1 million. [See Graph 1]
Some smaller cities (including Detroit, Washington, D.C., and Baltimore) had higher rates. Still, last year was the seventh of the last eight in which Chicago's rate was the highest, or tied for highest, of the cities with million-plus populations.
If raw numbers were the only measure, Chicago could brag of some success. The number of murders here last year was 29 percent below the 1992 total. That's not so dramatic as the drop in murders for the entire country, which last year totaled 15,980, or 35 percent below a 1993 peak. Still, Chicago's numbers are much improved from an era in which fear of crime was America's obsession. [See Graph 2]
Yet there's an insidious element beneath the surface of Chicago's murder statistics, a relationship to race and class that keeps many Chicagoans, like citizens of other big cities, from becoming too exercised about the terrorized neighborhoods where toe tags on young bodies are as predictable as winter winds from the north.
Put short, the murder rate here isn't the outrage it should be.
One reason is that, for many Chicagoans, murder is about "them," not "us": Fewer than 7 percent of last year's homicide victims were white. And 65 percent of the victims previously had been arrested by Chicago police (although most often for nonviolent offenses). As the map at right suggests, the disparity is geographic as well, with most murders taking place in Chicago's poorest neighborhoods. [See Graph 3]
What none of us wants to say, but what we as a city say by our tolerance of 600 murders a year, is that many of these lives are expendable.
- - -
There is no empirical proof that Chicagoans ignore homicides by the hundreds because the blood flows in impoverished neighborhoods where most of the faces are black or brown.
But to deny that reality is to ignore what most of us will admit under our breath.
Similarly, our collective concern for the frightened and law-abiding people who live in neighborhoods where most killings occur also has its limits. We empathize with people who for a time this autumn had to live in heart-pounding fear of sniper attacks in suburban Maryland and Virginia. We have a harder time empathizing with Chicago families who live on streets where bullets have flown wild for decades.
And so, for lack of a commitment that reaches much beyond whatever deterrents the cops can establish, 600 murders a year has become the acceptable body count in Chicago.
In some years, of course, the annual murder toll here has gone well above 600. The all-time high was 970 in 1974, when Chicago had 400,000 more residents than it does today; a second spike of 943 occurred in 1992. At times the numbers have prompted outcries like that of Mayor Richard M. Daley last winter, as both the murder toll and murder rate nudged upward after six years of declines. Daley earnestly promised renewed efforts to push the numbers down. As Cook County's former chief prosecutor, Daley knows about the bloodshed most citizens never see. Since he became mayor in 1989, more than 10,000 people have been murdered in his city.
Yet even when Daley's father was still mayor in the early to mid-1970s, Chicago's psyche was adjusting to some 600 killings a year as an acceptable floor. When the city's homicide toll hovers in that order of magnitude, nobody gets too upset. As this year winds down, what little public comment there's been about Chicago murders in the aggregate has focused on the decline (27 fewer homicides as of Friday) from last year's running total. As if to say: Great! We didn't go higher this year!
Without some intrusive interventions to disrupt patterns of homicides, population trends alone are likely to spur some growth in murder tolls. For several decades (see graphic at right), U.S. murder rates have loosely coincided with the percentage of young males in the total population--and particularly the share of young men from disadvantaged homes whom social services professionals refer to as being "at risk." Nationally, the share of the population composed of young adult males began rising slowly in the late 1990s after declining since the late 1970s. [See Graph 4]
This slowly rising percentage of young males in the population guarantees nothing, of course. But it does challenge the notion that Chicago as a city, or the U.S. as a nation, can expect fewer murders in years ahead. "We probably have bottomed out on homicides," concludes James Alan Fox of Northeastern University in Boston, one of the nation's top homicide researchers. With more young males in the demographic pipeline, he says, "It'll be difficult to maintain a 30-year low."
Young males are indeed at the core of the phenomenon. It's an axiom of homicide researchers, and certainly not an original thought here, that a majority of killings trace to young men in the grip of a powerful drug: testosterone. In Chicago last year, half of all identified homicide offenders--those whom police believe committed the acts, although not all have been tried--were males in the prime killing years of 17 to 24.
- - -
Breaking the acceptance of a certain level of murder involves not only new commitment, but also unlearning much of what crime novelists, Hollywood screenwriters and conventional wisdom have taught us about homicide. Many of these killings, for example, are not stereotypical crimes of passion, but quick, if brutal, business decisions rooted in disputes over narcotics or gang turf.
Nor does homicide neatly conform to our notions about how the national economy influences the crime rate. Recessions and poverty may drive some crime trends, but in the aggregate, homicide moves with relative independence. The nation's murder rate edged up during the recession of the early 1970s, but dropped in the recession of the early 1980s. It rose during the downturn that ended early in 1991, yet stayed high into the recovery. Go figure.
Similarly questionable assumptions suffuse the notions of how to combat homicide. One prime example: The traditional Chicago way of strategizing against murder rates, for public officials and citizens alike, is to ask what police have done to bring the numbers down--or, in bad years, to ask why they let the numbers rise.
But while it's true that reducing Chicago's homicide toll lies to some extent with what police do or don't do, their largely reactive role can be exaggerated. All kinds of other factors also move the numbers, from the availability of guns to gang tensions to the quality and speed of the emergency medical care that shooting victims receive.
The story reflected in the graphics at right is of a city in which murders fall heavily on certain neighborhoods and families. But the situation isn't hopeless. There is a wealth of nationally respected homicide research that has Chicago as its epicenter. And there are both carrot and stick experiments, rooted here and elsewhere, that are now being tried in some of Chicago's most dangerous neighborhoods. A few of these efforts--they can be quite intense--look promising, as this series will explore.

So the Iraq war started March 19 2003 in that time over 1500 Murders in Chicago alone ! Need I really pull up the data for Detriot ? Rates are one thing and our casualty rate in Iraq compared to wars past is like we are getting divine intervention on our side. Dead people in total is much different than a rate. If you want to look at rates I can find parts of Chicago that are twice as dangerous as doing a tour in Iraq !
 

smurphy

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Palehose said:
So the Iraq war started March 19 2003 in that time over 1500 Murders in Chicago alone ! Need I really pull up the data for Detriot ? Rates are one thing and our casualty rate in Iraq compared to wars past is like we are getting divine intervention on our side. Dead people in total is much different than a rate. If you want to look at rates I can find parts of Chicago that are twice as dangerous as doing a tour in Iraq !
Rates are everything, my friend. It's ignorant, misleading, and wrong to compare 3-5 million people to 150,000.

And OK, I challenge you to find me a neighborhood in Chicago that rivals the danger level of Iraq..... Ready, GO! .......

(by the way, a neighborhood needs to be bigger than one tenement project).


....Which brings me to another point - If the right is so appalled by statistics of big cities, why is it that they were the ones fleeing from those cities, "red lining" the poorest districts to be void from investment, and basically setting up all of their money, schools, jobs, and life in general elsewhere? It's like you created a Frankentsein on your own accord and now complain about the very thing you caused.
 

djv

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It's like Fox News over this missing girl in Aruba. Chit they must not know anyone else that's missing. We have 4 to 5 folks go missing everyday here in America. Why don't Fox go nuts over them. We have not slipped into a money play. Like the money being made by those who new all a long we were going to war in Iraq no matter what. I still have not seen Fox get on the chaperone's that screw their job up. Civilian dieing in Iraq per the right dont count. Unless they were did in by Saddam.
 
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Palehose

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smurphy said:
Rates are everything, my friend. It's ignorant, misleading, and wrong to compare 3-5 million people to 150,000.

And OK, I challenge you to find me a neighborhood in Chicago that rivals the danger level of Iraq..... Ready, GO! .......

(by the way, a neighborhood needs to be bigger than one tenement project).


....Which brings me to another point - If the right is so appalled by statistics of big cities, why is it that they were the ones fleeing from those cities, "red lining" the poorest districts to be void from investment, and basically setting up all of their money, schools, jobs, and life in general elsewhere? It's like you created a Frankentsein on your own accord and now complain about the very thing you caused.

I owe smurphy this .....and the answer is Englewood !

Not to mention if your a white man and decided to start as far east as possible on 1st street your life expectancy is approx. 6 blocks walking west god forbid a white female....she would be raped in the first couple blocks and than killed .
 

Palehose

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Master Capper said:
Palehose,

What about all of the innocent children and womenr dying in Iraq?

Very Very sad thankgod the rate of innocents dying in Iraq went way down the minute we attacked because Sadaam had to stop killing his own aye ?? Glad we both find the death of Innocents a terrible thing !
 

ferdville

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Just to get this thing rolling again, there is one tiny little city in LA County called Compton and there have been more than 50 murders there in the first 6 months of the year.
 

Palehose

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ferdville said:
Just to get this thing rolling again, there is one tiny little city in LA County called Compton and there have been more than 50 murders there in the first 6 months of the year.

Thats peanuts compared to Englewood and Englewood has less than 30,000 people in the neighborhood. But Compton very Dangerous indeed Ferdville
 

smurphy

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I'll look up some actual numbers for Englewood. I'm guessing Compton is close to 100,000 people? Just guessing. Even if it's half that, 100 in a year (not that a spike of 50 in 6 months would equal that) is still less than half the Iraq rate for Americans. I'm really giving a benefit of the doubt on the numbers there to even make it that close.

Englewood - thanks Palehose...

For the record, I was a delivery driver in LA every summer during college and then for a year afterwards. Went through every neighborhood at pretty much every hour. Late night overtime deliveries to Florance-Normandy area for involent patients of home medical care stuff included. You name the area and had to go there for something.

Needless to say nothing ever happened - nothing except fair respect from everyone - Compton, East LA, even West Hollywood bringing supplies to people dying of AIDS. Granted, I was just a working guy, but certainly many fears and stereotypes I held previously were gone after those years.

I think the danger of US cities is overplayed. It was all pretty much caused by white flight anyway. You leave a place with no investment, and it naturally becomes an outcasted area. People with money create ghettos by abandoning them. It's not like the poor people there wanted it that way.
 

Palehose

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I think the danger of US cities is overplayed. It was all pretty much caused by white flight anyway. You leave a place with no investment, and it naturally becomes an outcasted area. People with money create ghettos by abandoning them. It's not like the poor people there wanted it that way.

I would love to have you tell that to my 75 year old father who lived in Roseland So. side of Chicago ,no doubt it would be the last breath you ever took !
 

smurphy

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What, he would kill me for saying that? That's a bit excessive, you think?
 

Palehose

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Gee Murph I wonder why ????? Dam white people trashed the place and abandoned it aye ???
 
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