Pro-Union read this

[dawgball]

As most people know on this board that have read my ideas about Unions before, I don't favor most Unions at all. This story, though, is absolutely pathetic and shows the irresponsibility of execs that will keep Unions in place and proves that there is still a place for Unions in SOME companies.

Delta Exec Bonuses

 

[Blazer]

sick

sick

BY THE NUMBERS
$1.3 billion: Delta's net losses
16,000: Jobs cut
58.6%: Drop in share price
$4.8 million: Bonuses paid to top five executives
$12.5 million: Bonuses paid to 55 second-tier executives
Note: 2002 figures
Source: Company filings, internal documents, staff research




My father is a blue collar worker for the phone company. I was raised in a pro-union hosehold. My father would make the remark: "without unions you would have slavery".

I know that is a little extreme ,but unions (in general) are a good idea. Somemtimes they get out of control. I hope to see the day they are no longer needed.

 

[fatdaddycool]

Dawgball,
I cannot help but surmise that this was posted for me and I appreciate your posting. As I have said before and will continue to broadcast until the general public takes some notice is that this kind of thing is the norm. In all actuality this is below the norm. Don Carty, President and CEO of American, Makes roughly 895,000 in base salary. With bonuses and stock options, etc., he took home $17.1 million last year, which will be eclipsed by the more than $18 million he takes home this year. When Crandall left the airline some ten years ago or so we had in place 26 Senior vice preseidents, we currently have 58. The airline has reduced in size everywhere but management. In the building I work in, Taesl Engine shop, which is a joint venture between Rolls Royce and American, we have about 300 Union employees working two shifts. To manage these employees we have 28 Managers and over 65 supervisors. One shop that has only fifty or so emps. has five supervisors on one shift for chrissakes. Yet they need wage concessions from the union. Two years ago Don Carty came out with a program for the employees of American to purchase a home computer system at a lower price from Dell. The price was approximately an 8% savings from suggested retail, and the credit union at American was given the ability to give a "computer loan" regardless of credit history to all employees. The program was a huge success for Carty. As it turns out Don Carty has a vast amount of wealth dedicated to Dell stock and now sits on its board of directors.
American advised the public that it has cut 22% of management which is a bold faced lie. They cut non-union workers jobs is what they did. Employees such as gate agents that have no union, were given mandatory demotions and pay cuts or simply terminated.
American has not applied for bankruptcy yet nor have they delared "force majeure" or "war emergency" yet as United has done. United is by far the worst of all the airlines. Being employee owned the union heads got on the board of directors and proceeded to sell its members down the river. The IAM being the worst union in history it does not suprise me and that is a good example of Unions going corrupt and it is sad. My brother in law has been locked out of work and the gates locked after 17 years with the company. United was able to do this and keep much junior and lessor paid employees employed due to the fact that they declared a war emergency and has been able to nullify many aspects of their labor agreement.
My question is this.......all those people protesting the war and the miserable conditions that they find the Iraqi citizens in and how "we are killing innocent people" and all that superflous bullshit, thats right I said it, it is bullshit. Where are you when your countrymen are being wronged. Put on the street by your very own apathy towards issues in our very own homeland. It is the fault of the PUBLIC that the airline industry is in this state. It is the fault of the PUBLIC that enron was able to get away with what it did. It is the fault of the PUBLIC when they are not educated to all the anti labor reforms that have taken place during Bush's tenure alone. Why is the public not screaming about the airlines management skills during this time instead of how the pilots make too much money. Nobody in the pilots union or the mechanincs union or the flight attendants union live anywhere near Don Carty or any of the upper tiered management because they cant afford it. I suggest we all open our eyes to the economics of our country. The public is being robbed, and raped by the very government you elected. Wise up people.

 

[acehistr8]

I dont know the background to this argument, but I agree with Dawgball I am 99% against the unions and think they are killing the airline industry and will drive it into the ground. I think its absurd to state that without unions their would be slavery. You are essentially saying that all workers are idiots and would just take what they could get. Well I know the airline industry and they are being decimated by the unions.

(I should edit and note most of my work and study was done with pilots unions and to some extent the larger labor unions)

Lest you think I am shooting my mouth off with cause, I have an MBA in Finance with a concentration in Airline Economics. I worked directly with the Director of the Aviation Institute at GWU for 3 years and have met Bob Crandall on several ocassions. I have also met and worked with the CEOs of JetBlue, Atlantic, Frontier, USAirways and United. At every stop along the way, unions are choking the lifeblood from the industry. Now, please do not confuse my stance as pro-management, as I think it is criminal for those salaries to be made by most of them when the industry is dying.

Dave Siegel is a guy who took over USAirways and has a track record which includes turning around Continental and pulling them up off the floor. In these times and in this kind of industry you need someone who is going to make tough choices to turn around a company. He ordered the fleet to shift towards RJs (regional jets) to replace the aging fleet of larger jets they had. Larger jets are older, cost more in maintenence and repair and fuel, and basically are a drain on the cash flow once they hit 18 years of age. Oh but since RJs fly shorter routes and fly them faster, the pilots union said no, we dont think so, we arent willing to take that cut in hours even if it means you are modernizing the fleet and saving the company a huge amount of money in repairs, fuel and maintenence. The pilots were willing to let the airline go under rather than give concessions to make things work. By the way this RJ shift and opposition from pilots unions is happening at virtually every large airline with aging fleets, as they all have.

Now lets see what happened at United. United needed $9B in labor concessions to avoid Chapter 7 liquidation. Keep in mind Chapter 7 is IT - this means sell your jets your routes, your landing slots, you are done. The pilots said no, we will give you $6B so you can get 2/3 loan guarantees, but thats it. Consequently, United is now at the bottom rung of the ladder, its stock trading at less than $1. Their cash burn rate is such that they are expected to announce they have run out of operating capital sometime next month.

But **PLEASE** be aware that you are making a blanket generalization to assume that all execs either make millions or dont deserve it. Herb Kelleher at Southwest has made a profit something like every quarter for the last 50 quarters, yes through 9-11. His compensation is heavily tied to their stock, so when he reports $14M in income, it means its because everyone there made money and his airline is running well. Oh and yeah, no pilots union at Southwest. But their pilots seem to do well. They have a company that is making money to work for, a good work environment, an oh yeah, one that isnt going to go Chapter 11 or Chapter 7 because of unreasonable labor demands. You think they will be having a better summer or some of the 20,000 AMR and UAL pilots that lose jobs because they wouldnt help save the airline? Right, thats what I thought. Is it just a coincidence that while the airline industry is in the shitter there are two airlines growing at record rates (SW and JetBlue) and that coincidentally they are the two airlines without unions? I dont know, but I would be willing to debate you that there isnt.

 

[dawgball]

FDC--Actually I have a follow-up article to this one that is even worse. My purpose of submitting the article was to show that I do see both sides have flaws. I do not have a ton of knowledge about the airline industry except that I know they rape me when I am buying a ticket. My Union experience is in the Auto industry and then my father working for a Union shop (electrician).

I will post the follow-up article if I can find it again.

My peer group is highly Republican in nature, but all conversations about this story line have been very negative toward the management. Delta is getting slayed here in Atlanta right now. There have always been a couple of untouchable companies in Atlanta--Coca Cola and Delta really leading the way. Delta is doing its best to screw things up for their organization.

 

[dawgball]

Related Stories

Related Stories

Mullin defends bonuses

This is what really ticks me off.

Delta also reported it spent $25.5 million to set up trusts to protect the pensions of 33 executives if the airline sought bankruptcy protection.

Backlash

Let me clarify my peer group also. I would say that we all vote Republican, but none of us are die hard for any party. I don't think I know of anyone in a young Republican club or anything besides the one in DC who used to work for Fleischer. I would say that the only other politically passionate friend that I have is a Democrat.

 

[Blazer]

JFK

JFK

C'mon Dawg our boy JFK was a Demo.

 

[Turfgrass]

Two prominent DC politicians have suggested that the taxpayers of this country spend tens of billions of dollars to (once again) bail out the U.S. airline industry. No, these politicians are not Democrats. They?re Republicans. House Speaker Dennis Hastert and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist.

There is no doubt that air transportation is essential to our economy. If the airlines fail we?re going to have a huge problem. The fact is that not all airlines are in trouble. The airlines closest to failure are the airlines with the most burdensome union contracts. While the unions staunchly refuse wage and work-rule concessions the politicians talk about taxpayer-funded bailouts.

Let the free market correct this situation. Let the airlines burdened by unions fail. The airplanes and crews don?t just disappear. The airport infrastructure isn?t turned to dust overnight. Let them fail. Let the law of supply and demand provide the solution. Other companies, without union wages double that of comparable private sector jobs, will step in. They will buy or lease the airplanes out of the bankruptcy courts, rent the gates at the terminals, and begin operations at a lower cost and with routes more convenient to passengers.

Remember, it is quite possible that the airline unions are working a game plan designed to force the airlines into quasi-government ownership where their jobs and high wages will be protected. Time to call their bluff.

 

[dawgball]

Could someone list the major airlines who are Union and those that are not? I would include AirTran, Southwest, JetBlue as major airlines here.

Thanks. I would just like to do more research on the matter.

 

[fatdaddycool]

Ace,
My original reply was lost so this will be the condensed version

I dont know the background to this argument, but I agree with Dawgball I am 99% against the unions and think they are killing the airline industry and will drive it into the ground. I think its absurd to state that without unions their would be slavery. You are essentially saying that all workers are idiots and would just take what they could get. Well I know the airline industry and they are being decimated by the unions.

Ok as far as workers being idiots please see child labor laws that were and are a necessity in our country. Second on what facts do you base your statement? The airlines have been unionized since their inception and are just now going under and it is the unions fault?

Lest you think I am shooting my mouth off with cause, I have an MBA in Finance with a concentration in Airline Economics. I worked directly with the Director of the Aviation Institute at GWU for 3 years and have met Bob Crandall on several ocassions. I have also met and worked with the CEOs of JetBlue, Atlantic, Frontier, USAirways and United. At every stop along the way, unions are choking the lifeblood from the industry. Now, please do not confuse my stance as pro-management, as I think it is criminal for those salaries to be made by most of them when the industry is dying.

So you hung out with some Ceo's and now you know the whole story on what is wrong with the system. Part of the problem if you didnt know have you noticed that it is the large airlines having problems? The problem is with the business plan itself. Large airlines using the outdated hub and spoke system have had to bear the brunt of the government enforced security measures that we have to pay for. The government doesnt pay the salaries of over 70,000 security personnel that the government requires the large airlines do. Unions didn't funnel 370 million dollars to lobbyists this last year trying to obtain favor in congress to abolish the Railway Labor Act. (see CESTA group).

Dave Siegel is a guy who took over USAirways and has a track record which includes turning around Continental and pulling them up off the floor. In these times and in this kind of industry you need someone who is going to make tough choices to turn around a company. He ordered the fleet to shift towards RJs (regional jets) to replace the aging fleet of larger jets they had. Larger jets are older, cost more in maintenence and repair and fuel, and basically are a drain on the cash flow once they hit 18 years of age. Oh but since RJs fly shorter routes and fly them faster, the pilots union said no, we dont think so, we arent willing to take that cut in hours even if it means you are modernizing the fleet and saving the company a huge amount of money in repairs, fuel and maintenence. The pilots were willing to let the airline go under rather than give concessions to make things work. By the way this RJ shift and opposition from pilots unions is happening at virtually every large airline with aging fleets, as they all have.

Dave Siegel is also the guy that with Lorenzo engaged and was successfull in busting the labor unions and putting nearly 90,000 hardworking americans out of work. He is also the same guy along with JetBlue and Southwest that contract their maintenance out overseas. You mean to tell me that a guy that employs people of another country in sweat shops basically and puts our fellow countrymen on the street is what you would call business savvy. You don't think that the revenue and spending generated by those jobs being back here in the USA would benefit our economy and way of life.
Also, you don't have a clue about the RJ's. The pilots and compnay operate under a MUTUALLY NEGOTIATED AND AGREED UPON collective bargaining agreement. In Article I subparagraph a, of the agreement you haven't referred to is the Scope and Recognition clause in which both the COMPANY and union agree that any an all jet propelled aircraft owned or operated under Continental will be manned by theuir pilots. Siegel wanted to curcumvent that agreement and bring in non union lesser paid pilots to operate the aircraft. It is a clear violation of the agreement HE signed, the pilots never balked at the RJ's being cheaper to fly or anything like that nor did they refuse to do anything accept ask the company to honor the agreement as the Pilots had done.

Now lets see what happened at United. United needed $9B in labor concessions to avoid Chapter 7 liquidation. Keep in mind Chapter 7 is IT - this means sell your jets your routes, your landing slots, you are done. The pilots said no, we will give you $6B so you can get 2/3 loan guarantees, but thats it. Consequently, United is now at the bottom rung of the ladder, its stock trading at less than $1. Their cash burn rate is such that they are expected to announce they have run out of operating capital sometime next month.

United didn't need labor concessions it needs a business plan to return to profitability. You are mistaken. The company is owned by its employees . The Pilots didn't agree to concessions because they said the airline would go into bankruptcy anyway and then would ask for further concessions to be ordered by the court, which it did, and then that the company would use the war to try to negate the contracts anyway, which it did.

Oh and yeah, no pilots union at Southwest. But their pilots seem to do well. They have a company that is making money to work for, a good work environment, an oh yeah, one that isnt going to go Chapter 11 or Chapter 7 because of unreasonable labor demands. You think they will be having a better summer or some of the 20,000 AMR and UAL pilots that lose jobs because they wouldnt help save the airline? Right, thats what I thought. Is it just a coincidence that while the airline industry is in the shitter there are two airlines growing at record rates (SW and JetBlue) and that coincidentally they are the two airlines without unions? I dont know, but I would be willing to debate you that there isnt.

Ace, SOUTHWEST IS THE MOST HIGHLY UNIONIZED AIRLINE IN THE INDUSTRY! Their pilots, ground workers, mechaninc, flight attendants, gate and reservation agents are all union. Some times it is better to know what the hell you are talking about before opening up the ole pie hole.
American and United mechanics have taken concessionary contracts for the last twelve years while the company posted record profits. The cash surplus left by Crandall to Carty was in excess of 12 billion dollars and Carty pissed it away and it is the unions fault. We were already operationg under wage concessions when the company posted those profits did they ask us if we wanted a slice of the pie? Did you bitch for us then while you and your buddies enjoyed record profits while we were under contract to givebacks? Did you know that where I work there are 162 mechanincs in my building working two shifts. For those mechs we have exactly 28 level five managers 67 level four supervisors and 14 level six managing directors, so you do the math that is 109 members of management to manage 162 employees, and it is our frikkin fault right? Or did you know that the CFO that governs the 401k plan at American gets an automatic 27% ROI regardless of fund performance, and I lost ten grand last year in the 401k yet he gets 27%, Damn unions.
Ace, normally I enjoy your posts but this is by far the most uninformed post I have ever seen.
FDC

 

[fatdaddycool]

Two prominent DC politicians have suggested that the taxpayers of this country spend tens of billions of dollars to (once again) bail out the U.S. airline industry. No, these politicians are not Democrats. They?re Republicans. House Speaker Dennis Hastert and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist.

There is no doubt that air transportation is essential to our economy. If the airlines fail we?re going to have a huge problem. The fact is that not all airlines are in trouble. The airlines closest to failure are the airlines with the most burdensome union contracts. While the unions staunchly refuse wage and work-rule concessions the politicians talk about taxpayer-funded bailouts.

Let the free market correct this situation. Let the airlines burdened by unions fail. The airplanes and crews don?t just disappear. The airport infrastructure isn?t turned to dust overnight. Let them fail. Let the law of supply and demand provide the solution. Other companies, without union wages double that of comparable private sector jobs, will step in. They will buy or lease the airplanes out of the bankruptcy courts, rent the gates at the terminals, and begin operations at a lower cost and with routes more convenient to passengers.

Remember, it is quite possible that the airline unions are working a game plan designed to force the airlines into quasi-government ownership where their jobs and high wages will be protected. Time to call their bluff.

OK Acehistr8, I was wrong this is the most irrespnsible and ignorant post I have ever read, sorry for selling you short.
Turf,
American Unieted Southwest is the free market, the airlines burdened by unions have been so since the beginning the only thing that has allowed the JetBLues and ATA's to exist is deregulation. My god am I the only one that tries to be informed of the facts before I make a statement? Buy or lease airplanes out of bankruptcy courts, rent gates, what the hell do you think American and United and Northwest and every other airline is already doing you dolt. Why don't you name some of these non union airlines for me? Oh and by the way Southwests pilots and mechanics and ground personnel and agents are all unionized. There friggin lower tiered managemnet is unionized for chrissakes.

Dawgball,
Most all airlines are unioniaed in some way or the other, Delta's pilots, Southwest-everybody, Atlantic Coast airways-pilots, ground, JetBlue-pilots, American- all but the agents, United-everyone, UsAirways-everyone.

You know you people seem to forget that American airline's decision to purchase a bankrupt TWA and all its debt burnt up all of its cash reserves over 4,7 billion, and nobody seems to remember that incredible blunder that Carty made only that the mean ole unions are sucking poor Don dry. Or that he sold Sabre an extremely profitable subsidiary of American to AMR thereby decreasing profits, or that he sold off our frieght company and sold fueling rights to Butler a company he is a major stock holder in. You see we pay someone to pump our gas from our tanks into our airplanes and he makes money. We pay AMR to haul freight. You guys don't have the slightest idea of all what you are talking about. United bought bankrupt US airways but that couldn't be why they are failing is it.
I am sure all of you are nice people aand probably watch plenty of TV but there are a lot more sources of information then USA Today, also a scab outfit. Please try to be informed. It is my job to be involved in legislation and arbitration for the union and members I represent. I find it absolutely reprehensible that grown men and women base judgement on skewed truth and innuendo.

 

[Turfgrass]

By fatdaddycool

American Unieted Southwest is the free market, the airlines burdened by unions have been so since the beginning the only thing that has allowed the JetBLues and ATA's to exist is deregulation. My god am I the only one that tries to be informed of the facts before I make a statement? Buy or lease airplanes out of bankruptcy courts, rent gates, what the hell do you think American and United and Northwest and every other airline is already doing you dolt. Why don't you name some of these non union airlines for me? Oh and by the way Southwests pilots and mechanics and ground personnel and agents are all unionized. There friggin lower tiered managemnet is unionized for chrissakes.

So it's ok to just let the airlines go the same way as Amtrack?

Just let the goverment flip the bill?

You must be worried about your job to post this.

 

[fatdaddycool]

one more thing Turf,

Remember, it is quite possible that the airline unions are working a game plan designed to force the airlines into quasi-government ownership where their jobs and high wages will be protected. Time to call their bluff.

Do you or did you know that Republicans are historically anti-labor? George W. being one of the worst. Did you know he forced 13,00 union civil service employees out of their positions and broke the union? Texas is a right to work state because of him. I will tell you what let me get together all the anti labor measures G.W. Bush has taken part in during his tenure and I will get back to you, because the list is hugely extensive, of course, I wouldn't expect you to know that.

 

[Turfgrass]

I live in a right to work state too. Does that make me an evil person because I don't belong to a union.

I just don't want my tax dollars to pay for UNION workers. Let the airline go under. Someone will pick up what's left over.

 

[fatdaddycool]

Turf,
You are a pompous ass, let the government flip what bill? What has the government done? Give a bailout after 9-11? Thats funny they also sent funds and relief to New York. HOw the hell is the government going to foot the bill? The government is the bill, didn't you read a friggin thing? The government imposed security measures that the larger airlines have to pay for has created a stress and overhead that the airlines cannot keep up with.
Let me try to explain this so you can understand it.
9-11 happens, gov't says hire and train air marshalls, scanners, security, etc.. the airlines have to and they present Uncle Sam the bill and they say I ain't gonna pay for it you are. But we can't we are poor due to decreased travel. Govvy says, we will base the portion of bill paid according to seat miles flown out of said destinations. Well with a hub and spoke system who pays the most, well lets see since the big three have almost 2000 times the available seat miles as the others combined guess who gets the bill. As far as my job goes let me tell you alittle something about it and what I did to get there, you being completely unconcerned about the welfare and livelihood of fellow countrymen I will try to keep it short.
After joining the Marine Corps straight out of high school I went into the air transport division of the Corps, namely KC-130's. Got shot at at Grenada and then got out at which time I had no job but I did have a Degree in Chemistry as I managed to put myself through school while in the service. However, I could not find a job in that industry without at least a master so I took a job at Priester Aviation for $6.00 and hour. Keep in mind I am a single parent raising an infant at the time. I also took a second job at The Dog Walk flipping hamburgers to supplement my income. After almost two year I was up to 8.50 when that company was sold. I then hired on at Muckenshnabl aviation at 7.00 where I worked until I got on with Flying Tigers @ 9.50 and hour whereupon being laid off I went to work for Hollander moving and storage for 8.00, I then got on at Corporate Aircraft services where they paid me 30,000 a year salary, whew hoo, right up until they were shut down by the FAA for falsification of documents, I wasn't involved. That job lasted for three months. I then went to work at Jimbos hot dogs, the dog walk and hollander m&s all at the same time to support my every hungry daughter at which time in 1989 American called and hired on at 10.10 and hour. I still work for them and have been getting agreed upon raises for the duration, I will leave it up to you to find out how much I make now as it is a matter of public record, and am qutie happy with it.....but afraid for my job???????? heavens no....the workd needs ditch diggers too my friend ....if you remember I was looking for a job when I got this one, what I am worried for is that apathetic, unknowledgeable, lethargic, know it alls such as yourself will make oup the workforce some day and that is much scarier of a thought to me.

 

[acehistr8]

fdc, normally I enjoy your posts, but if you are going to turn into an arrogant name calling prick, then I really have no more interest in this conversation. You have no interest in a debate, you only have interest in telling everyone else that disagrees with you they are wrong. Sorry that working with airline CEOs for only 3 years doesnt qualify me as an expert, obviously since you are in an airline union then you must be the only expert here. I will just sit back and pay attention to what you say, obviously everything I have worked on, seen, read and written is wrong.

You know what my biggest problem is with unions, and management? Its always someone elses fault.

So good for you, you're right, the rest of us that dont like unions are wrong.

 

[djv]

There is away around all this. By the way in my carrier of over 41 years including two tours of duty in the service. I worked both side of the fence. Only 2 years union. But learned alot. That and my Father was union for 39 years. He and I had many talks on this subject and not all were nice.
But one thing he told be so many years ago and I believe it might work. Is this. Let the top guy make what ever he wants. Or what the board directors give him. Just one rule. He can only make 20 times what the very bottom guy makes. As Dad always said top guy happy and little guy on bottom happy. Top guys gets more money little guy gets more money. No union needed. As for benifits all get the same. That is the way it is in many companies now anyway when it come to benifits. Most vacation schedules and insurance are all the same. So Dad said this a long time ago when many top guns were getting 500 grand a year. So little guy would have got 25 grand. And of course mid management and others would all be some where in between. Dad also said these new 401 plans folks are talking about all companies should have them. He could see they were better then normal pension funds. He thought that would have good affect on the markets and help the economv. Tell you what were talking back late 60's early 70's. My Dad is gone now. But what he said then or versions close to it could work. But I will tell you some of his union buddies who had just chit luck with some of the companies they worked for thought he was nuts. So now days to help hold down some of the companies spending they could still pay the top guy 1 or 2 million. Not a bad salary. And the little guy would do nice to. Just maybe Dad was right the economy would really stay strong. I know the answer is what about the ball players and all the money they make. Surley a top CEO should make that. Why not pay the ball players less. Most dont earn half there salary. What about teachers and fireman. Set a scale up for them same way.
I know its nuts. But Like I said there is good about this that could work or version there of. It's not all nuts.

 

[acehistr8]

While Im at it, the one thing I never understood about crazy isolantionist zealots is your sheer inability to grasp simple economic concepts.

You want to hear something unpopular that is pure economic reality? So fuhking what if a US company contract work out overseas that costs American jobs? Do I like it? NO. But if it turns that US company into a more efficient operation that benefits MORE US WORKERS AND THEIR FAMILES then that is a good thing. Would you rather JetBlue and Southwest hire American maintence unions at 5-10times the cost? Now before you answer, would you rather they did that if in 2 years they were going to go bankrupt? The problem with people in this argument is they never realize there are two sides to the issue. Sure they may hire foreign companies cheaper, but by doing so it allows them to keep tens of thousands of Americans IN JOBS! I mean, what happens when you go out and buy your GM or Ford car, I mean especially in Texas. That car wasnt made in America, by Americans, does that make it less of a car if its parts were made in Mexico? So I dont give a shit what you know about airline unions, until you have the ability to focus on two sides of an economic issue, cut the namecalling shit. Read up or shut up.

 

[acehistr8]

djv I agree with what you are talking about, it is a concept pioneered by Ben and Jerrys, whos CEO used to only make 7x the lowest employee. However I believe they have done away with this.

 

[Turfgrass]

Obviously you never read (or comprehended) what I said. I said let the ones that are going under, do just that. Go under.

It seems that some airlines can, and do turn a profit. If you think that's dumb or arrogant, I'm so sorry.

I guess if you feel like it ain't broke don't fix it. If that is the case, then the ONLY solution is to just throw more money at it.
Eventually things will turn around?.maybe.