Rumsfeld A Idiot

[StevieD]

Neverteaseit, nobody is claiming to have all the answers here. We are just chatting because that is what we do and because we have the right to. Maybe somebody will get inspired after reading something on a chat board to go out and do something constructive. I dunno. That does happen.
There are all kinds of subjects being discussed here. Some I find interesting, some others find interesting. It's no big deal.
I have found help and have had questions answered on subjects much smaller than taxes and war.
I am sure we all feel we do what we can for our own charities and you are correct that if we really thought about it we could do more.

 

[djv]

Well I do believe we discoverd there is no plan. Or it changes weekly. And 5 years in Iraq is to dam long. At least my thoughts. Remember I was one from the start said Iraq was no danger to us at this time. With what we found in that country so far I believe Im closer to right then wrong. And when Saddam had the chance turn over all his WMD and we would leave him alone. That ruled out we were so concerned about the people. It was a option we never should have gave. Then we said ok you leave the country and go live someplace else take your family and all is forgiven. He did not bite on that either. Now we say if there is not WMD found we freed the people. Seems to me freeing the people should have always been first. But it was not first option. So it's a bad argument now. And now we find many still hate our guts no matter what we do. So killing our soldiers seems to keep many of them happy. The red carpet and rose peddles have long disapered. We must remember we were not gong here to stay. That was first word given out. Now 5 years. What a plan. Tell you what. The killing keeps up and a year from now we have 300 dead soldiers. Bush better find away to keep many minds on step 3 what ever that maybe. Or he will lose to one of the 9 idiots running from the other side.

 

[StevieD]

DJV, don't worry Bush and the Right Wing Media will do what they do best. They will throw about 10 different options out and see which one the public likes then they will run with that one for awhile. And no one had better question them or they will find themselves being ridiculed and boycotted and being painted as a traitor.

 

[AR182]

stevie,

some of your posts are very cynical, i hope you are not like that in the real world, because it's very counter productive.

 

[StevieD]

AR, Sorry you brush off my points as cynical. But I ask you this, if liberating the people of Iraq was a goal of this administration then why did he never once mention that in all of his campaigning or at anytime prior to 9/11? I think you have to agree, everytime someone disagrees with this administration they face an onslaught of ridicule from right wing talk radio and cable TV.

 

[AR182]

stevie,

i will never brush off your points of view. i respect your opinions as much as i respect most of the posters here. but you always seem to think that the bush administration is always up to no good. but i also have the same feeling about others who always thought clinton was up to no good. these men are & were our president, so i tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. but i am not naive to think that these men in power can not be corrupt, after all i was around during nixon's presidency.

i just think that when we have soldiers in harm's way, it is better for our country if everyone sticks together & puts up an united front against these terrorists. i don't feel that now is the time to question the administration's motives. it makes us look weak in the eyes of these fundalmentalists, who think that we are a paper tiger.

sure i believe that we could have been better prepared to run iraq after the war. but we weren't & right now, imo it is not the time to dwell on this. again it doesn't make us look good. anyway it seems that we have the right guy to run iraq now, so lets look ahead.

stevie quote:" I think you have to agree, everytime someone disagrees with this administration they face an onslaught of ridicule from right wing talk radio and cable TV."

i only listen to music or sports on the radio. and i don't agree with you about people facing an onslaught of ridicule on the cable news networks by disagreeing with bush. the people who i have seen being ridiculed by the media are the ones who have not been consistent in their criticism of the war vs. their position on clinton's use of force in bosnia, serbia, etc.

 

[StevieD]

AR182, I also respect your opinions, except maybe that you listen to music on the radio, but that is fodder for another thread.
Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannitty were among the most vocal critics of Clinton during his ventures into Bosnia and Serbia. True it may of been the Dems in favor of those attacks but it was the Republicans who were against them. In most cases the same people saying we should be quiet today.
I also was around during Vietnam and it is for that reason that I feel it is a duty to speak out against the administration, any administration, that I don't agree with.
If it seems I am against the current administration it is only because they are the ones running things right now. I was against the tax cut as a way to give the economy a boost and I was against going into Iraq.

 

[AR182]

stevie, my point was that i don't listen to talk radio & thus have no idea what is being said.i am not interested in what these political commentators have to say. i find that they are winbags. i have listened in the past to russ maybe twice & didn't like him.

i sometimes watch hannity's show, not so much for him but because of the guests he has scheduled for that night. i am not a fan of his either.

i don't like commentators who always side with their party of choice. and i don't like commentators who belittle opposing points of view. i feel hannity does both & i also find him to be very immature in the way he conducts himself.

and, stevie, my friend you should listen to music more often on the radio(lol).it will keep the blood pressure under control(lol).

 

[djv]

The important thing for me is get a plan. Then kick it in the ass and get our folks the hell out. Where are all these countries that wanted to help. Seem like other then our soldiers there are some Brits left and thats it. We had some 40 countries backing us. Good they all can send 500 to 1000 troops to take over for the first 40000 of ours that can come home at once. Were paying off many of these countries with White house visits. Forgiving loans they owe us. Good deal now send some support other then verbal. By the way whats the latest on the bastard Bin. Seems forgotten. He's the real SOB.

 

[ferdville]

There are many people, myself included, that were highly supportive of the Bush administration and their foray into Iraq. However, as time goes by, I have become very frustrated by what is going on. djv is right - we either have no plan or our plan is a bad one. Republicans AND conservatives are losing patience with Bush in more ways than one. I will admit that most of my friends are Republicans. Right now, there aren't many that would stand up and applaud Bush. He is flirting with danger in a big way and it looks more and more like this whole thing hasn't been thought out too well. He also has made little effort to discuss openly or make adjustments for the good of our country's soul in areas like Enron, Haliburton, etc.

Neverteaseit - I don't think that you are accurate in your assessment. I don't consider myself an expert in foreign relations nor does anyone else here that I have seen. I haven't seen anyone say they have all the answers or any of the answers. There are people here with political views that run the spectrum. Those of us with open minds learn things every once and a while. I seldom if ever agree with Stevie, but at this point, we are coming closer to sharing the same thoughts than at any time previous. No one claims to have the solutions. Secondly, this is not a gambling section of the forum. Thirdly, who are you to judge what any of the rest of us have done in our lives? You have no idea what is in anyone's past or are you psychic? You say that all we do is bitch and whine and nothing else. Again, how do you know this? You don't know who here volunteers time or works in some capacity to better the lives of the citizens of the this planet.

 

[djv]

Nicley done Ferdville. And I agree it gets harder every day. I voted for Bush and still am ok with it. But boy he has P's me off a ton last 12 months. An no longer will give that automatuc vote to him. He can go back to work and earn it again.

 

[auspice]

to djv & ferdville

You both vote Republican so I'm sure you're quite aware of your parties activites and alliances.

A couple of weeks ago, a female legislator from Georgia brought up the incredulous story of Bush sr. and his business relationships. It was only a small 'spin' piece on the major networks and paid no attention by hardly anyone. However, I'm curious as to your take on his business dealings.

Of course she was talking about his working for the Carlyle group. A large (16 billion dollar in assets) business conlomerate which deals in three areas with the main one being defense contracting.

Bush senior has 'worked' there for quite some time along side his former secretary of state Baker who both have incredible politcal power influencing contracts and needed political connections in congress.

Colin Powell has already worked there as well and will probably go back to working there after his public service is over.

Rummesfeld's best friend and former college roommate and wresting buddy is/was the number one guy at the Carlyle group, so Rummseld's future is almost certainly with them.

Our current president Bush also worked there until 1994 when he decided to run for governor or Texas. Five will get you ten that's
where he'll wind up,just like dad collecting several million a year for his 'work' (assuming he continues to 'do the right thing' for the group)

And the recent flap regarding poor Mr Blair over in the U.K., who somehow almost single handedly drug the U.K. into the Iraqi conflict with us, can be largely understood if you consider that he will also probably go to work for the Carlyle group along side John Majors, who is already working for them. They don't forget 'friends'.

Rest assuredly that the Carlyle group probably made several hundred million more with the advent of the Iraqi war then if there hadn't been one, perhaps even billions. So it's 'investment' in Bush senior and Bush jr has undoubtedly paid handsome rewards.

And there is the little thingy about the CIA denying giving any info that should have prompted a military response from the U.S. in Iraq (which is being denied by the White House), along with the obvious insight that you have mentioned about the lack of a end game for the war. One can only wonder WHY would we go to war without a 'end game' if the war itself and the economics from it aren't really the goal all along. If this administration was as concerned about 'liberating' the Iraqi people as they claim, wouldn't their outside activities somewhat reflect this love for liberation rather than trading power and influence for money to a defense contractor? One of president Carters biggest causes was the homeless and he actively pursued this by building homes for the homeless. What do you think these guys are going to be doing in their spare time?

As I said before, I'm curious as to your take on these 'business relationships' that appear to be influencing currentl U.S. policy making at the expense of American and Iraqi lives.

Do you really believe that someone that had any real respect
for the office,duties and responsiblities of the white house would position themselves squarely in the compromising positions they've all placed themselves? Their positions and relationships are stubbornly selfish and arrogant don't you think?

Are these the actions of a presidency and administration that you feel comfortable with for the next 6 years knowing their ties both politically and monetarily to a defense contracting outfit. Do you honestly believe this administration has any ability to function objectively and unbiased especially after seeing their first fiasco?

Oh yeah.....I forgot to note that the Carlyle group has huge Saudia Arabia holdings/investors along with huge Korean relationships as well which assuredly has already influenced the action/inaction of the U.S. in dealing with these powder kegs.

quick note: remember sometime back about the Bin Laden family
money invested with U.S. equity firms. Yep. It was with the Carlyle group until a newspaper published a story forcing their quick liquidation. Make no mistake about it, the best interests of those that the Carlyle group is looking out for are not those of the American people.

 

[djv]

First I was a strong Rebuplican. At about age 25 I said get a life.
Independent is only way to go. I shall stay that way.
Believe the story left out Cheney who was CEO of the group for 2 years. Since watergate and it's fall out. This group has been careful to be on the up and up. But you dont have to be smart to see where there interest lies. But right now not much press working the strory. Because for some reason your a bad person if you tell these little stories. If it was Clinton they would have start there second investigation by now. But the Rebuplicans control both houses and will brush over and hide what ever they want.

 

[djv]

I just saw the report we lost two more guys lastnight.

 

[StevieD]

Auspice, that Carlyle Group piece is very interesting. Thanks for posting it.

 

[auspice]

to StevieD

Thanks. Can't help but read some of this stuff in the forum and get my blood boiling when I think about how the ideologies discussed here in the forum and elsewhere 'on the street' have no real significance in the real world on how our foreign and domestic policies are actually arrived at. The ideological discussions are simply what the politicians want us to talk about while they rape and pillage our country right in front of our eyes. You almost have to forget all the 'smack' about ideology and simply 'follow the money trail'. For example:

Up until 1995, Saudia Arabia had over 40,000 'employees' whose whole responsiblity was to guard their oil fileds. These 'employee merceneries' where employed by. a separate corporation owed by.....you guessed it, the Carlyle group. Please note, both Bushs were concurrently employed at the Carlyle group so they obviously knew and had ties to all the players receiving funds, ect.. Gee, isn't Saudia Arabia perhaps the largest terrorist center in the world. Doesn't their own government sponsor funds to be used for terrorist activities?

In short, the economic position that is created by these business relationships of the Carlyle, compromise the integrity of our government to the N'th degree. It's almost impossible to think of all the would be/could be senarios that might exist as a result.

I personally don't feel as if it's my country here anymore. The 'invisible government' that's been created by all these different groups are really the controllers of our country now. My vote means nothing. It's a shame but....

 

[djv]

Never say never and keep voteing. So strange how things do come out in open sooner or later.
Like Iraq nuke site. The power plant that Israel partily destroyed. We new lots of nuke suff stored there. Is any of it bad or can be used for bombs. They dont know. But they know some of it had high readings of radioactivitiy. What ever you wish to call it. But we made sure Iraqis oil field were safe first. Then we went and secured this site weeks later. But to late the Iraqis or whom ever had been there already and taken many things. Well we dont even know what all it was. But from reports much is missing.
Some of the Iraqis when they found out not much they could do with some of this stuff threw it in the river. Now the river has high readings. Thats just dumb planning. This site should have been under control at once. We were after all looking for anything that could be used for weapons. I guess?

 

[StevieD]

Auspice, I agree that it looks like the scoundrels have control, and perhaps they do for now, but I believe the people will win out in the end.
Never give up hope. Don't forget our forefathers developed this country to protect themselves from these same types of bastards.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Auspice in regards to your quote
"Can't help but read some of this stuff in the forum and get my blood boiling when I think about how the ideologies discussed here in the forum and elsewhere 'on the street' have no real significance in the real world on how our foreign and domestic policies are actually arrived at."

1st let me start from the beginning as I fail to see how reason for Iraq war was ever stated that it was for liberating the people of Iraq.
While there is spin from both sides off the fence lets take a look at results.

On 9-11 we were attacked by terrorist which was in the making for sometimes. It is without question we were very vurnable (spl)despite whose fault it was. As commander and chief the presidents 1st priority is to protect the people.
Bush came on tv and declared war on terror-bout time someone did. Despite all the spin on reasons this is where we stand now only a short time later with 2 of the shortest and lethal wars of all time incurring with an unheard of ratio of our guys/there guys casualties and civilian casualties at very minimum.

We now have devastated the Taliban/Alquada and terrorists free reign in Afganistan. We have set up shop in the center of terrorist confines,Iraq, with extreme leverage on Saudi,Syria.Iran ect.
Saudi's now are even as I type helping in capture of terrorist, and economically one major factor out of our control was price of oil,not so anymore.--- I could go on but I believe the picture is clear enough. If anyone thinks we are not in MUCH better control of terrorism than before 9-11 tell me please.

Now I will say this I do not agree with many of the things such as the tax cuts-giving away money to foreign countries-bribing foreign countries and some excess spending. I can't see why feds and states can't stick to budgets we have to stick to. You can't spend more than you take in--and while on that subject just where the hell is all the revenue from lottery receipts going? In ky it goes into general fund which there is no way in hell to track.

 

[kosar]

Dogs,

Yeah, the state-sponsored lottery scam. The way they do it here in Florida is they spout off that half the lottery profits go to education and then reduce the education budget by the same amount, effectively putting the lottery bucks into the general fund. All the while, half the kids in this state have to go to classes in trailers.

Good posts Auspice.